IBR Routing Assistance Dilemma

[Randy]

How does the old saying go? If you can't beat em, join em.

Feel free to shoot holes in this....

In Leg 1 of this years IBR, there were 38 pages worth of bonii and a large number of routes that could be used to get them.

What if they were to do this...

Hold the opening ceremonies in a large banquet room and the participants come equipped with maps, GPS, routing software, encylcopedias, crystal balls, etc. During the opening ceremonies, a select number of route options will be provided and you are only eligible for the bonii associated with that route. For sake of this example, we'll use an arbitrary number of 10 route options. Of the 10 routes, some will be high risk/high reward and others will be low risk/low reward. On each of the 10 routes, there is a big bonus at the end with a bunch of small/medium ones along the way. Included in each route, there might be some sucker bonii. Before leaving the banquet room, you will need to tell the rally masters which of the 10 routes that you'll be taking. Your decision is final.

Obviously, no cell phones will be permitted during the decision making process and the only bonus packet you are provided is for the route that you pick.

Certainly, once underway, there wouldn't be anything preventing someone from reaching out for outside help (even though there would be rules written prohibiting it - strictly on the honor system), but, at that point, the route has already been selected and there won't be many variations on how the route could be run.

 

[Waaane]

I really am a total noob when it comes to this but have been following all of the threads with great interest. The only thing I see that is potentially a problem with the "Randy" plan is it seriously restricts the riders options if something goes awry. Remaining flexible and showing creative and affective "On The Fly" route alterations to take advantage of existing conditions or to minimize the damage done by a breakdown or other unforseen problem would seem to be one of the hallmarks of a superior rally guy. It seems the value of this ability would be severely curtailed under this system. Or am I missing something?

 

[Bounce]

What if we were to do this:

Leave the details of how to run the IBR up to those who own it. Participants will opt in/out based on their personal desire to be part of the end result. Those who opt out can opt to design their own rally to fit their personal desires with the hopes of having others interested in the same design.

Each rally sinks or swims on its ability to draw riders. Those that go wanting for riders adapt or fade. Monday morning QB'ing those who have spent years of their life (and buckets of blood, sweat, and tears) on a rally is poor form unless the Rule 1 violators [1] are willing to step up to shoulder a level of risk themselves.

It's already been hinted that discussions are underway about changes to existing rules. Those discussions are between the people who "own" the IBA and administer it at the highest levels. Rules have changed in the past to address concerns (like when Fran Crane ran a Buell with a support truck of mechanics following her around the country). The rules will continue to adapt to the changing nature of the competition.

Someone once suggested that a ludite version of the IBR be run so people without support or tech or whatever could evenly compete. The story is that the IBA was already maxed out on what it could manage but that they were willing to "work" with the person so that s/he could set one up. (Un)fortunately, that person didn't want to do the heavy lifting either.

[1] No Whining

 

[v65]

Leave the details of how to run the IBR up to those who own it.

Now where is the fun in that. I thought Warchild hit on the solution with his post here.

In recent years, the greater complexity of the bonus listings has increased the importance of routing skills in the Iron Butt Rally. But there has been an unintended consequence. There is now a significant number of riders that is depending on outside assistance for route planning. Within a few hours of the bonus listings being distributed, electronic files containing all of the bonuses were moving over the Internet.

So go back to less complex bonus listings, IME creating rules will leave you chasing your tail. Of course I really don't know **** about it, but that's not going to stop me.

 

[Randy]

What if we were to do this:
Leave the details of how to run the IBR up to those who own it. Participants will opt in/out based on their personal desire to be part of the end result. Those who opt out can opt to design their own rally to fit their personal desires with the hopes of having others interested in the same design.

Each rally sinks or swims on its ability to draw riders. Those that go wanting for riders adapt or fade. Monday morning QB'ing those who have spent years of their life (and buckets of blood, sweat, and tears) on a rally is poor form unless the Rule 1 violators [1] are willing to step up to shoulder a level of risk themselves.

It's already been hinted that discussions are underway about changes to existing rules. Those discussions are between the people who "own" the IBA and administer it at the highest levels. Rules have changed in the past to address concerns (like when Fran Crane ran a Buell with a support truck of mechanics following her around the country). The rules will continue to adapt to the changing nature of the competition.

Someone once suggested that a ludite version of the IBR be run so people without support or tech or whatever could evenly compete. The story is that the IBA was already maxed out on what it could manage but that they were willing to "work" with the person so that s/he could set one up. (Un)fortunately, that person didn't want to do the heavy lifting either.

[1] No Whining

Sorry to piss in your Cheerios, Bounce. With the amount of publicity this controversy has generated, I'm not that naive to think that they owners/administrators of the IBR aren't looking at options and rule changes.

While it isn't related to motorcycles, my entire career is based the 'what we did good, what we did bad, and how can we do it better next time' methodology. In many cases, brilliant ideas are brought in from the most unexpected sources.

I'm in no way inferring that my idea was brilliant, I was just tossing this out there as a discussion item. I kinda thought that's what Internet forums were to be used for.

mods - feel free to close this

 

[Rickster]

or my suggestion would be to just create 2 classes within the IBR competition:

Individual Rider

Team Rider

And delineate the specifics for allowable assistance in both cases, and adjust the rules year after year (as they are already doing) to keep the playing field fair and level.

My hats off to the organizers & riders both.

What an incredible amateur event! what an incredible amount of prep it takes to pull it off.

What an awesome accomplishment to finish!

Either way one class or multiple -- as all rules will be -- they just need to be adjusted to keep it fair.

 

[Mike-H]

What if we were to do this:
Leave the details of how to run the IBR up to those who own it. Participants will opt in/out based on their personal desire to be part of the end result. Those who opt out can opt to design their own rally to fit their personal desires with the hopes of having others interested in the same design.

Each rally sinks or swims on its ability to draw riders. Those that go wanting for riders adapt or fade. Monday morning QB'ing those who have spent years of their life (and buckets of blood, sweat, and tears) on a rally is poor form unless the Rule 1 violators [1] are willing to step up to shoulder a level of risk themselves.

It's already been hinted that discussions are underway about changes to existing rules. Those discussions are between the people who "own" the IBA and administer it at the highest levels. Rules have changed in the past to address concerns (like when Fran Crane ran a Buell with a support truck of mechanics following her around the country). The rules will continue to adapt to the changing nature of the competition.

Someone once suggested that a ludite version of the IBR be run so people without support or tech or whatever could evenly compete. The story is that the IBA was already maxed out on what it could manage but that they were willing to "work" with the person so that s/he could set one up. (Un)fortunately, that person didn't want to do the heavy lifting either.

[1] No Whining

Sorry to piss in your Cheerios, Bounce. With the amount of publicity this controversy has generated, I'm not that naive to think that they owners/administrators of the IBR aren't looking at options and rule changes.

While it isn't related to motorcycles, my entire career is based the 'what we did good, what we did bad, and how can we do it better next time' methodology. In many cases, brilliant ideas are brought in from the most unexpected sources.

I'm in no way inferring that my idea was brilliant, I was just tossing this out there as a discussion item. I kinda thought that's what Internet forums were to be used for.

mods - feel free to close this

Can't we all just play nice?.....(Who did pee in Bounces breakfast? :blink: )

 

[burnergold2B]

How does the old saying go? If you can't beat em, join em.
Feel free to shoot holes in this....

Certainly, once underway, there wouldn't be anything preventing someone from reaching out for outside help (even though there would be rules written prohibiting it - strictly on the honor system), but, at that point, the route has already been selected and there won't be many variations on how the route could be run.

I guess I believe in the crossing of both Randy and Bounce's ideas in that we toss out some ideas for the IBA to possibly see here, but also to possibly lay foundation for a different rally to come, somewhere in the near future when someone DOES want to ..."do the heavy lifting."

As Randy and several others have pointed out the ultimate end-result situation, no matter how we/they cook up a new angle or solution, is that there is an honor system some folks will always completely ignore. Whether it's routing assistance or that box of Boy Scout candy bars set out in the break room at work for sale by some kid's parents, people will steal.

I kinda like the luddite class; nothing newer than '92, less than 900cc, and has to be air cooled. (talk about needing support) :blink:

 

[Bounce]

Can't we all just play nice?.....(Who did pee in Bounces breakfast? :blink: )

who was playing any other way? no one pissed in my post toasties. i was simply stating the obvious. it's not ours to manage and those to whom it doesn belong WILL be managing it (as they have in the past).

like it or lump it, the rules have always been "no whining". that means participate or don't. kick off your own or don't. wailing about how it could be different changes nothing except for the perception people have about those who don't step up to the risk plate while taking swipes at those who do.

I kinda like the luddite class; nothing newer than '92, less than 900cc, and has to be air cooled. (talk about needing support)

that pretty much defines the current "hopeless class". My idea was that, in a ludite class, any currently-legal bike could be used but tech would be barred (at what level would be the RMs decision). GPS, Laptop, PDA, Cell/Satellite Phones seem obvious. Solo (teamless) effort?

 

[Randy]

Can't we all just play nice?.....(Who did pee in Bounces breakfast? :blink: )

who was playing any other way? no one pissed in my post toasties. i was simply stating the obvious. it's not ours to manage and those to whom it doesn belong WILL be managing it (as they have in the past).

like it or lump it, the rules have always been "no whining". that means participate or don't. kick off your own or don't. wailing about how it could be different changes nothing except for the perception people have about those who don't step up to the risk plate while taking swipes at those who do.

Just curious...what did I post that struck such a strong chord with you vs. the 4 pages of responses/suggestions/whining/bitching on this thread? Taking swipes? Hardly. I didn't/wouldn't/couldn't say anything about the folks who put their life, time, and blood into this. The fact that this event goes off without a (to the outsider) hitch is mind boggling and nothing short of amazing.

I know you're an IBR vet and you have more right than I to say anything about it. I applaud you and have a huge gleaming pile of respect for you. Also, let me be the first, albeit a week early, to wish you a happy 10 year anniversary on your first SS1K

That all being said, I don't get the 'step up or shut up' mentality. If the only ones that have the right to comment on the (IMHO) ******** that's going on are the ones on the organizing committee, then why allow any responses to WC's original post referenced above?

 

[rayban]

Everyone, including Randy, is welcome to voice any opinions they want. Stomping on them as if you are part of the IBA seems intentionally confrontational unnecessarily. You can agree to disagree, but putting someone down for discussing something on a discussion board, no matter your feelings on the topic, is a bit rude and counter-intuitive. I've been duly corrected for having done so in the past and recognized it. I think the same applies here. Chat away. Nobody is pretending that anyone is going to take any of it to heart, but I see no harm in the discussion taking place, either! I normally find bounce to be pretty balanced and fair without much silliness, but I have to say this was a bit unnecessarily confrontational the way it was worded.

 

[Barabus]

Everyone, including Randy, is welcome to voice any opinions they want. Stomping on them as if you are part of the IBA seems intentionally confrontational unnecessarily. You can agree to disagree, but putting someone down for discussing something on a discussion board, no matter your feelings on the topic, is a bit rude and counter-intuitive. I've been duly corrected for having done so in the past and recognized it. I think the same applies here. Chat away. Nobody is pretending that anyone is going to take any of it to heart, but I see no harm in the discussion taking place, either! I normally find bounce to be pretty balanced and fair without much silliness, but I have to say this was a bit unnecessarily confrontational the way it was worded.

+1 Rayban. One of the more mature things I have read on this board. Better be careful, this logical and open minded thinking could be contagious.

 

[twowheelnut]

Better be careful, this logical and open minded thinking could be contagious.

Doubtful. Very doubtful. :grin:

I concur with bounce. Opine all you want about IBA this or IBR that. In the end, unless your name sounds like 'Kneebone', that's all it's ever gonna be is opining. (Hey, that rhymes with 'whining'! )

Sometimes, some discussions are not worth having.

-30-

 

[jwhite518]

What if we were to do this:
Leave the details of how to run the IBR up to those who own it. Participants will opt in/out based on their personal desire to be part of the end result. Those who opt out can opt to design their own rally to fit their personal desires with the hopes of having others interested in the same design.

This says it all. End of discussion. Everything else, while well intentioned and reasonably presented, is just hot air. And I say that with all due respect. As did Bounce.

We might as well discuss how to bring peace to the Middle East in this forum, for all the impact it will have on the actual situation.

 

[dcarver]

We don't have these issues in the Candy Butt Association!

We just get another bottle of whiskey out of the freezer, have a great meal, listen to kick ass music, then plan a route that's easy to follow, has plenty of stops, lot's o picture taking...

..and all ALL open to opine opinions in the CBA!

 

[Bounce]

What if we were to do this:
Leave the details of how to run the IBR up to those who own it. Participants will opt in/out based on their personal desire to be part of the end result. Those who opt out can opt to design their own rally to fit their personal desires with the hopes of having others interested in the same design.

This says it all. End of discussion. Everything else, while well intentioned and reasonably presented, is just hot air. And I say that with all due respect. As did Bounce.

We might as well discuss how to bring peace to the Middle East in this forum, for all the impact it will have on the actual situation.

thanks for getting the point.

wanna know what tripped my trigger today?

it's not randy exclusively. it's all the sideline experts that have been going on about this for the past week; randy being just one of many and his new thread being the point at which i chose to share my opinion and back it with a little bit of history about the nature of endurance rallies. No Whining has been the cardinal rule since before I got involved. trust me when i say that the people who hold the reins to the IBR have their finger on the pulse of events and will adjust the rules as they think are appropriate.

all of these gyrations from all these different directions are part of what someone explained to me years ago as, "Spheres of Influence". work on the things you can influence. expend energy on those things that you can affect. wasting energy on things that are outside your sphere of influence wastes your time and energy and wears on the patience of those within your same sphere who have to listen to the futile rants that they can see go nowhere.

toss a leg over a saddle and go ride the piss out of your bike while you still can. do a SS1K, a BBG, a 50cc, a 24/36/72 hour rally, a 7 day rally (Butt Lite), and toss your name into the hat to help or ride the IBR. volunteer for rallies near you. If you get through the draw, have the time of your life. Along the way you'll have a great time, learn a lot about rally riding and rally organizing. In the end you'll find that no matter how someone runs a rally, they do a hell of a lot of work and place themselves at an amazing level of risk to provide Riders with a good time.

Maybe. Just maybe, some day it'll be you that The Whiners get bent about because you try to toss the wet blanket of reality checks over their rants. But you'll also understand how frustrating it is to see people find fault with something that they sometimes have less invested in than the rankest newbie Rider.

Now, to prevent this thread from devolving any more than it already has, consider it closed