Ignition Timing Curves

[Attila]

Does anyone know are have access to information regarding the ignition timing on the FJR?

The shop manual gives the initial timing as 5 degrees BTDC @ 1050 rpm. I'm looking for the total number of degrees at maximum advance.

My dealer doesn't know nor does the tech rep at Yamaha in California that I talked to by phone, so I'm cluless.

I bought a new timing wheel from Yamaha with the thought of degreeing the wheel, installing it and checking it with a Ferret type timing light which will be a chore if I can't get the information any where else.

The shop manual say's that the timing is not adjustable but of course like most all things, nothing is impossible, diffulcult maybe but not impossible.

The FJR has a ton of low end grunt anyway and so more timing might not help it but it would be nice to know what it is.

I've never understood why Yamaha failed to include this information in the manual because both my XS-1100 and my V-Max did but then it's probably out there I just haven't found it.

Thank's for your help.

 

[Twigg]

The advance curve is built into the ignition map in the ECU, so practically it is not adjustable.

However, it is replaceable with units like the Power Commander. There are lots of threads about this modification.

 

[HotRodZilla]

I haven't hears of anyone making any adjustments to their timing on this bike. That includes the guys who have removed/replaced engines.

Personally, I think your trying to mess with something that doesn't need to be messed with.

 

[Attila]

The infamous Power Commander for the FJR has no provisions for altering the ignition timing however units intended for use on Busa's and others do.

While it's true that it's not necessary to change the timing on a FJR it would be nice to know what it is just as knowing what the cam duration is or how big the throttle bodies are or, how far is it to Tucumcary from St. Louis........I jus gotta know!

The fuel curve on the FJR is lean on the bottom and takes a dip at 4500 but from 5,000 up it's not far off on the AF ratio with just slip on mufflers and no cats like mine.

The Power Commander is another story however in addition to things it doesn't do, timing is one of them.

Oh yes, the view from Sandia Peak over looking Albuquerque on a clear summer evening is spectacular to say the least.

 

[Twigg]

Given that several FJRs on this forum have topped 200 000 miles with no adjustments to the timing, it's reasonably safe to suggest that it's an area of the bike that works decently well.

There is a phrase I've picked up here ... "Worry less, ride more".

 

[garyahouse]

Ever hear the old saying, "Bang for your buck?" I understand the concept of what you're trying to do, kind of: "No stone left unturned." But I'm thinking that if you're going to spend some time digging for something, in this case, horsepower, your labors would be better served looking elsewhere. I'm sure you realize that it's close to impossible to know everything there is to know about the FJR's performance. We certainly don't. But I've never heard this question before. The question you ask obviously has to do with performance, let me guess: you're looking in every nook and cranny to find that extra horsepower or two. If I'm right about that, we all get that idea. We've talked about it endlessly here. But my thoughts are that if you have time to invest in looking for a game changer, that time might be better spent looking under a different rock. Tinkering is a blast, and hundreds have been down this same road from what I've read here. But from what I've read, the timing is nearly impossible to change, at least with the resources we have available. As you know, this road to FJR performance has many forks: fuel/air mixture, throttle body synchronization, getting more air in and out of the engine, oil choice, grade of fuel, and ECU modification. A couple have even ventured into installing nitrous (different forum), which if I recall was a success. I've never heard of anybody turbocharging the engine or changing out the cams or doodling with the compression. I've not seen anybody bore or stroke the engine, and nobody markets aftermarket cylinders or heads or cams for the FJR that I know of.

You asked about timing. All I know is what I've read here. Seems like a closed book for the FJR. However, things like the fuel/air mixture might indeed be a lot easier to look into, and should provide a lot more bang for your buck, as they say.

Someone might ask, why? Why hasn't somebody tapped the same resources (for our FJRs) that are available for bikes like the Hayabusa? Where there's no market, there's no product, it seems. When thousands of owners are screaming for a certain kind of modification, the "market" will indeed step up to the plate. It's all about making money, ya know. FJR riders are a different breed. Seems that we're not collectively screaming out for every extra horsepower, at least not with the same volume and in the same numbers as the Hayubusa, ZX14 or VMax crowds. For the most part, those that want every extra horsepower have not chosen the FJR, but have moved on to other platforms.

Guess we be just too busy riding. Which reminds me, better get ready to do just that as I gotta be to work within the hour.

Gary

darksider #44

 

[ionbeam]

The spark timing of the FJR is calculation based, not a flat look-up table. From the FJR Technical Guide:

The fuel injection period, injection timing, ignition timing and current passage time through the coil are controlled by the ECU. The ECU first calculates the intake air quantity using the signals ...It also calculates the ignition timing and current passage time, based on the signals received from the various sensors and controls the current passage through the ignition coil.

I assume this is what prevents aftermarket controllers like the Power Commander from altering the ignition timing. The aftermarket doesn't seem to offer a 'hot' cam either.

 

[HYCLE]

If you have a dual trace DSO, you can tap into the crank position sensor and the primary ignition coil and map the curve yourself. You said you had to know, so go for it.

 

[ionbeam]

{HYCLE Posted 16 October 2014 - 07:24 AM}
...you can tap into the crank position sensor and the primary ignition coil and map the curve yourself. You said you had to know, so go for it.

What happens to the fuel injection calculations when you do this? Since the fuel and spark mapping are calculations all you can affect by doing this is a static offset, but it doesn't change the actual mapping.

I suppose you could add an ignition controller like the ones from MSD or CDI but I doubt that this would make anything better.

 

[rckendall]

I also own an FZ1 which was tuned by using a combination of components developed by Ivan https://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/fz1.htm. I know he works on many different bikes, but he may not do the FJRs. Never-the-less, he might be able to give you some insight as to what it takes.

For the FZ1, his reflash of the computer does several things, but it still requires a Power Commander for the fuel. The combination totally changes the character of the bike.

Good luck,

Richard

 

[mcatrophy]

...For the FZ1, his reflash of the computer does several things ...

As far as I am aware, no-one has yet re-flashed an FJR's computer.

 

[Attila]

It might be of interest to some that Web Cams does indeed offer a mild cam profile for the FJR that is a drop in using the stock valve springs and it makes about 5-8 more horsepower from 5000 rpm up over the stock cams.

These cams are of the hard weld type which are actually more durable than stock. You send them your cams and they weld and regrind them for the new profile.

The stock cams have 224 degrees of duration @ .050 lift with .320 lift while Web's profile checks in at 236 degrees @ .050 with .340 lift.

You will not find this grind listed in the catalog but the part/grind number is #298 should you be interested.

The FJR is geared really high and so a big cam would not be kosher because it would be a sled on the bottom end.



Stock V-Max cams have about the same duration as the drop in profile that Web offers for the FJR.

I've got a set of hard weld cams by Mega-Cycle in my XS and a hardweld set by Web in my 96 V-Max and have had great success with both and as soon as I can locate a nice set of used FJR cams I'll spring for the regrinds for my FJR because new ones are a bit pricey and I want to hang onto my stock ones.

You have to remove the cams to adjust the valves anyway so it's a no brainer to put in the upgraded cams when this is done and lastly, there is nothing sinful about putting a whoupin on your buddies whacked out C-14 Cow.

 

[Dieago]

If Im understanding your question right all your wanting to know is the total advance number so that you can make sure the wheel is dead on by degreeing it so its dead on spec wise instead of assuming its just close because of its mass production cookie cutter production method??

it would be cool to check your two wheels to see if curves are identical at initial and total..interesting! Also do you think the company's that makes precision wheels for some bikes like the old Kaw zrx in billet aluminum with different amounts of advance might know your questions answer? also doesn't muzzy makes some advancers and they may know?

 

[garyahouse]

Copied from a PM reply sent to me by the OP of this thread. I contacted him to encourage him to keep us informed about putting a cam in his FJR.

"...Probably the reason folks don't do the cam mod is because it's not cheap and doesn't yield astronomical gains. In the case of a street FJR with it's high gear ratio you can't add much more than about 12-16 degrees more cam timing without killing the bottom end.

The profile I outlined fetches slightly less power below 3000 rpm, about the same from 3000-4000 and 5-8 more from 5000 up with a power curve stretching to 9500 with the stock springs.
The FJR has single valve springs with no inner spring, so even though it employs the shim under style buckets its RPMs are limited with the stock springs, especially with a more evil cam.
It's valve springs have practically the same pressure as the outer springs on a V-Max. But the Max has an inner spring as well and utilizes the heavy shim on top style buckets.

Anyway, a motor is a motor and a cam is a cam and Web cams was grinding cams since before I knew what a cam was and that is a long time if you know what I mean."

Dan

 

[Canadian FJR]

"You will not find this grind listed in the catalog but the part/grind number is #298 should you be interested."

This is the most useful post I've seen here in months.

Thanks,

Canadian FJR