Intermittent Shifting Problem into 1st Gear - Spongy Shifter

[JamesK]

I've read through this thread and a few others where the problem was simply lack of maintenance of the shift linkage assembly or wrong/old oil. Neither of these is my problem as I've recently re-lubed the shift (and brake) linkage assembly and the oil is only 2k miles old and the exact brand and type I've run for many years. My clutch fluid is only 5k old and clean, and the clutch hydroponics are properly bled and not leaking. I'm running the Gen I clutch slave cylinder which I've had on the bike for the past 80k plus miles.

I've looked through all these threads but not even this one, which has the most technical info quite describes my problem.

shift problem site:fjrforum.com

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=117409
https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=117219
https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19386
https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=128799

To start with I should mention that my FJR has around 183k on the clock and is still running with the original clutch. The clutch, based on various tests I've read in other threads is not exhibiting any slipping. Also I remember reading that ScooterG was still on his original clutch at 220k when he "retired" that bike.

The Problem

In the past few weeks (which included 2 oil changes) I've been experiencing intermittent down shifting problem going from 2nd into 1st gear, while slowing down under brakes and equally when stopped and going from Neutral into 1st (but this is more rare).

Basically the clutch is pulled in, the bike is still slowly rolling and when I try to get it from 2nd (past N which I can see light up due to the issue) into 1st the shifter feels kind of "fluffy/spongy/springy" and instead of clicking into 1st seems to bounce back to N. Sorry for using such highly technical jargon, but I really can't think of a better way to describe this since that's exactly how it feels. Now after one or two gentle stabs at the shifter the transmission goes into 1st gear, without any unusual clunking or anything out of the ordinary. Aside from this intermittent issue (which seems to be increasing in frequency) the trans works as is has for the past 180k.

My hope is that this is simply a manifestation of "tired" springs in the clutch basket, which sometimes (I guess when the trans has not synched as well as other times) don't release the pressure off the clutch enough.

There is also NO issue shifting up and I have not been able to reproduce this with the engine turned off which makes me hopeful that the problem is not due to bent dogs or other serious issues.

The reason I'm guessing this is because my quite used 250 DP bike had developed a problem where it was eventually next to impossible to get it into 1st gear once the bike was fully stopped, and the problem was completely resolved with a new clutch basket and pressure springs. In this case when I originally replaced the clutch plates I only filed down the groves (made by the clutch plates) in the clutch basket and not replaced it with a new one.

I don't mind replacing the whole clutch assembly in the FJR since it's worked flawlessly for 180k miles, but it's a pretty pricey set if you also include the clutch basket so I just wanted to check with the wise folks here before forking out all that cash and possibly doing the job for nothing if the problem happens to be in the transmission, which would utterly suck as the engine is still going strong.

 

[Fred W]

James,

You have it kind of backwards. It won't be clutch springs. If you are having difficulty shifting between gears it could be due to incomplete disengagement of the clutch. It would be similar to shifting without using the clutch at all. The clutch springs are there to press the friction and steel plates together. Their job is to engage the clutch plates not to disengage them.

A way to check for proper clutch disengagement would be, with the engine off, just put the bike into gear and pull in the clutch. then see if you have much resistance to rolling the bike around. Compare that rolling resistance to when the bike is in neutral. This test is better done when the bike is at operating temp as there is sometimes a little drag on a cold clutch due to the thickness of the oil.

Do you often start the bike while in gear? I do, quite often. It is another test that the clutch is disengaging. If it is/does not disengage you'd feel the bike drive forward as you thumb the starter motor when in gear and clutch pulled in.

As a very first step to troubleshooting this shifting problem, where is your clutch lever adjuster set to? If you have it set to anything but the furthest position from the handlebar, change it to that and see if that help alleviate the symptoms. There have been many 2nd gen owners who have had clutch drag symptoms when they adjust the levers to be closer to the handle bar as that limits the stroke of the lever on the master cylinder.

The primary thing clutch related that would cause these kind of symptoms is air in the clutch hydraulic system. Perhaps especially since you have recently done a fluid exchange/flush there is a possibility that you got a little air in your fluid. This has the effect of limiting the stroke of the slave cylinder for a given master cylinder stroke input as it first must compress the air before it will start moving the slave.

Sometimes (though not always) you can feel that this is happening as the clutch will feel a bit spongy at the beginning of travel.

Try Ty-Wrapping the clutch to the handle bar overnight and see if it feels any better when released in the morning. The concept behind this trick is that by leaving the air bubble compressed overnight it may gravitationally work its way back up the (mostly) vertical hydraulic lines to end up just behind the master cylinder. Then when you release the lever in the morning the air gets sucked back up into the reservoir.

Clutches can be a ***** to get air out of the lines due to those mostly vertical hydraulic lines. If the slave cylinder were above the master it would be oh so much easier. You can try using a reverse flush if you have the equipment. I usually do my best with a MityVac and then use the tywrap overnight if I feel there is still some air in there.

It is possible that the clutch basket and/or hub have worn to the point where the plates are being held in position by the wear marks, even though the slave cylinder is releasing the clutch pressure adequately. But I would definitely rule out any sort of a hydraulic problem first.

Worn transmission parts would make it easier to engage a gear, but then it would/could slip out easily. It could be a bent shift fork but you would expect the problem to occur when standing still then too.

 

[CHIA]

Oh, "shifting".......never mind.

 

[JamesK]

James,
You have it kind of backwards. It won't be clutch springs. If you are having difficulty shifting between gears it could be due to incomplete disengagement of the clutch. It would be similar to shifting without using the clutch at all. The clutch springs are there to press the friction and steel plates together. Their job is to engage the clutch plates not to disengage them.

Fred thanks for the detailed reply, just wanted to clarify what I was referring to when I said "clutch springs", I meant the springs in the Primary Driven Gear Comp, #1 in the diagram. These springs being "tired" was what was causing a problem shifting into 1st gear once the bike had stopped on my DRZ250, totally fixed with a new unit. I had previously only replaced the clutch plates and springs #13 (that in the DRZ clutch sit inside the Clutch Boss).

This is why I thought the FJR problem might be similar, even though in the FJR clutch assembly these are replaced by a different kind of spring #11 & #12.

Just out of curiosity, if I'm still wrong about the springs in the actual Primary Driven Gear, than what is their purpose vs. the springs #11 & #12 in the FJR diag and #13 in the DRZ diag since from what I understand these are a different design but still serve the same purpose.

FJR Clutch Assembly

https://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/2007/FJR1300A+-+FJR13AW/CLUTCH/parts.html#uloc29

Suzuki DR-Z250 Clutch Assembly

https://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Suzuki/Motorcycle/2004/DR-Z250/CLUTCH/parts.html

A way to check for proper clutch disengagement would be, with the engine off, just put the bike into gear and pull in the clutch. then see if you have much resistance to rolling the bike around. Compare that rolling resistance to when the bike is in neutral. This test is better done when the bike is at operating temp as there is sometimes a little drag on a cold clutch due to the thickness of the oil.

There is certainly more resistance trying to roll the bike in gear with the clutch pulled in than in Neutral, but not a great deal more...

Do you often start the bike while in gear? I do, quite often. It is another test that the clutch is disengaging. If it is/does not disengage you'd feel the bike drive forward as you thumb the starter motor when in gear and clutch pulled in.

I too often start the bike in 1st with the clutch in, and I do feel a slight lurch forward, I can't remember if that's always been there or if it gradually appeared and increased. Should there be any lurching/movement?

As a very first step to troubleshooting this shifting problem, where is your clutch lever adjuster set to? If you have it set to anything but the furthest position from the handlebar, change it to that and see if that help alleviate the symptoms. There have been many 2nd gen owners who have had clutch drag symptoms when they adjust the levers to be closer to the handle bar as that limits the stroke of the lever on the master cylinder.

I have Pazzo levers installed and have been running the clutch lever on setting #4 for a number of years, never had an issue until recently. I am also running the Gen I clutch slave cylinder, in case that makes any difference in terms of lever setting working ok on my Gen II on setting #4.

The primary thing clutch related that would cause these kind of symptoms is air in the clutch hydraulic system. Perhaps especially since you have recently done a fluid exchange/flush there is a possibility that you got a little air in your fluid. This has the effect of limiting the stroke of the slave cylinder for a given master cylinder stroke input as it first must compress the air before it will start moving the slave.
Sometimes (though not always) you can feel that this is happening as the clutch will feel a bit spongy at the beginning of travel.

Try Ty-Wrapping the clutch to the handle bar overnight and see if it feels any better when released in the morning. The concept behind this trick is that by leaving the air bubble compressed overnight it may gravitationally work its way back up the (mostly) vertical hydraulic lines to end up just behind the master cylinder. Then when you release the lever in the morning the air gets sucked back up into the reservoir.

Clutches can be a ***** to get air out of the lines due to those mostly vertical hydraulic lines. If the slave cylinder were above the master it would be oh so much easier. You can try using a reverse flush if you have the equipment. I usually do my best with a MityVac and then use the tywrap overnight if I feel there is still some air in there.

I have "strapped" the clutch lever as you described overnight yesterday since that's a very simple thing to test. However, this issue only came up recently and the fluid flush was done about 6 months ago and using a MityVac as always.

It is possible that the clutch basket and/or hub have worn to the point where the plates are being held in position by the wear marks, even though the slave cylinder is releasing the clutch pressure adequately. But I would definitely rule out any sort of a hydraulic problem first.
Worn transmission parts would make it easier to engage a gear, but then it would/could slip out easily. It could be a bent shift fork but you would expect the problem to occur when standing still then too.

When working normally the transmission goes into gears as normal and I've never had it jump out of a gear. I do some other tests you mentioned but suspect its time for a new clutch assembly, well, at least that's a lot cheaper than an engine rebuild or a replacement engine, and I will do the clutch work myself...

Thank you for confirming or at least removing some of the concern that the problem is due to a failing transmission

 

[RossKean]

I am wondering if you might be having issues with the shift shaft. Ratcheting mechanism, weak springs, wear or goo?

I sometimes get a bit of a "lurch" when starting in gear when its cold. If you are replacing the clutch assembly, the steels are probably OK - check before buying new. The fiber disks are most likely to be the main wear part. Replace the clutch springs while you are in there. I can't think of anything else that should be replaced. Certainly not the whole basket.

 

[Fred W]

So, yes, the FJR clutch spring (#12 in the FJR diagram) performs the functional equivalent of the 5 springs (#13) in the DRZ. They are the clamping force for engagement of the clutch. When they become worn or weak this results in a slipping clutch under load due to insufficient clamping force.

Those other springs, captive in the clutch basket assembly (#1 in both diagrams), are driveline vibration dampers. The ring gear on the outside circumference of the basket is actually part of a plate that is just riveted to the back of the basket, so it would be free to rotate somewhat, relative to the rest of the basket, were it not for those springs. The springs are of slightly varying lengths and pitches, designed so that they can gradually take-up the power impulses coming in on that big primary gear from the crankshaft. The crankshaft wants to accelerate and decelerate throughout it's 4 stroke cycles and these springs help reduce some of that from being felt through the drivetrain as vibration.

One of the reasons I know so much about those springs is that particular part of the clutch basket assembly is a common wear point on Suzuki V-strom DL1000's. It's not that the springs need to be replaced, but rather that their "pockets" become chafed and wear over time and make the damper springs loose. What this eventually results in when the wear is great enough is known as "clutch chudder" in the V-strom circles. The looseness between the primary drive gears and the transmission allows impulses to be felt in certain conditions and rpm ranges. It also will result in a loud chattering noise when the transmission is in neutral and the clutch released as the worn parts slap around back and forth. I have first hand experience with a worn damper/clutch basket.

That said, I would not expect those springs or their pockets being worn to cause any increased clutch drag resulting in shifting difficulty. More likely you somehow fixed the clutch drag / shifting problems in the DR in some other way when you replaced the basket.

As for the first gen slave on a second gen bike, this mod results in lower clutch effort at the lever. It does that because the 1st gen slave has a slightly larger diameter piston in it, which also means that for a given lever stroke at the master you will get smaller slave piston travel, and less complete clutch disengagement. In other words, the fact that you have that 1st gen slave makes your clutch more susceptible to clutch drag than a stock setup is.

I do not know what is different from before, could be a little air in the lines, etc., but whatever it is, it would be exacerbated by having the 1st gen slave in there. To get more complete disengagement you want the slave piston to move further, pushing the pressure plate further away from the friction plates. Adjusting the clutch lever adjuster to put the lever further away from the handle bar will result in a little increase in both master, and therefore slave cylinder stroke.

 

[Fred W]

I am wondering if you might be having issues with the shift shaft. Ratcheting mechanism, weak springs, wear or goo?

If the shifter ratchet does not return to center prior to shifting into the next gear (for any reason) it can feel weird when you next attempt to shift.

But in James' case it is shifting part way (from 2nd to N) but just will not engage the 1st gear dogs on the other side of neutral. So, since it is moving part way I don't think that is what's happening here.

 

[JamesK]

Thanks for all the info Fred and Ross, that was actually going to be my next set of questions, what to replace.

All these components have 180,000 miles on them, so if that is the kind of life I can expect/hope for from a new set I am ok with doing it right and not having to worry about this part of the drive train for what's likely to be more than the life of the bike.

I am partial to replacing anything that has a word spring in it as a given, obviously the clutch friction plates but also the clutch plates as these are not crazy expensive. Now as far as the Clutch Boss and the Clutch Basket go, I guess it's best to pull them out and see what they look like before spending the big bucks. Well, #3 the Clutch Boss is still reasonable.

I remember in the DRZ clutch both the Boss and the Basket were pretty pitted and that's with a fraction of the mileage I have on the FJR clutch. The first time when I replaced the clutch friction & pressure plates and springs in the DRZ I had filed them smooth as is recommended in various how-to instructions for restoring a worn clutch. All I can say is that I still had the shifting issue, albeit a little better but nothing like the silky smooth shifting I enjoy now with the new Boss and Basket.

Fred, I realize based on your explanation of the Vstrom clutch that these are probably not as bigger panacea as what I've experienced (for whatever reason) on the DRZ, but I'm thinking if there's sufficient wear/pitting on the surfaces I will probably bite the bullet and buy a new Boss and Basket, so that I don't have to go back in there again...

I'm just hoping and praying that it's as simple (and cheap) as replacing some clutch parts.

 

[Fred W]

Yeah, you know... the FJR clutch is not known to be all that great at releasing even when everything is brand spankin' new. Even on relatively new bikes shifting from neutral into gear usually results in a pretty loud kerchunk. That is due to the inherent drag of the clutch when released spinning the primary side gears until the dogs engage.

Over 180k miles I would expect there to be some grooving wear on both the hub and basket where the plates make their contact in the engaged condition. Any grooving of those parts is going to inhibit the plates from releasing from the engaged position somewhat. I guess I'd be happy if I got 180k out of a clutch basket and hub.

Hope that fixes it for you.

 

[RaYzerman19]

I would agree with all said about how the clutch works..... also have a Gen 1 slave and Pazzos, which must have lever on 4 for clean disengagement (especially when cold). To test your condition, try the lever at 5 or 6. This may alleviate drag when cold and that little lurch forward. Still doesn't fix the problem, as you gotta have long fingers at 5 or 6. All it does is make the slave travel a bit more, indicating (to me) you should re-bleed the line with the traditional method, teflon tape on the bleeder threads, and make sure you pump enough fluid through to clear the slave cylinder and line. If the clutch plates are worn, they are thinner and in theory it should take somewhat less slave stroke to release it. Springs weak should only cause slippage, although worn plates and an oil issue may also cause slippage. Basket springs are for damping not engagement as Fred said.

The other possible issue is clutch plates sticking. I realize you said you're using the same oil you always have, but doesn't mean things haven't gummed up over time. To help clean it, you could add a cup or two of ATF and a couple ounces of Seafoam to the oil and run it at full operating temperatures for a while, more clutch strokes the better. I wouldn't recommend any hotdogging while it's in there, but see if anything's changed over the next 200 miles. Then drain, new oil. Not that I want to start any more oil debates..... but in my experience, Amzoil is known to have good clutch and buttery smooth shift performance if you want to try that once.

All that said, a 180k clutch doesn't owe you anything. I doubt you have to replace the basket if you don't see any noticeable wear in the grooves... shouldn't be much, it gets plenty of lube........ if you go with new clutch plates, don't lose the little ball or anything that would effectively make the push rod shorter. And I'd do release springs while I was in there.