Just came back from the mountains... and it was a disaster!!

[ELP_JC]

Hey gang. Just came back from a 300-mile ride to the mountains. I'm one pissed off MoFo. I had to cross a 1K' mountain to get to the highway to Cloudcroft, and this f***ing POS was bucking like a bronco ALL THE FREAKING way (60 miles), even though the altitude where I started and all those 60 miles was the same. Only thing I did was climb that mountain to cross to the other side of the city and get on the highway. This is ridiculous.

And yes, changed the CO levels from 7 to 5,4,stock... same crap. Seemed to work best at 5, but as it was said before, this is NOT the cure at all. And once I started climbing, SOB, it was almost unridable. And didn't matter if I had the tach at 3,4, even 6K rpms. NOTHING worked. Didn't have to stop, but the POS didn't stop bucking all the freaking way. Even checked the TPS with the DiAg (01 is the throttle angle), which showed 15 at rest (OK), and 100 at WOT, so it's obviously operating properly. I had to shut it off on top or I'd had been on my a$$ in the twisties, and it worked relatively fine (minor surging) after that, since altitude changes were mild. It was around 8,700'. I didn't have a problem going down, but I didn't expect to, since it's a pretty steep downhill.

No freaking way I can take this thing on a trip. So my question to the group is simple: Is the PCIII a 100% cure to the problem?? DON'T want to throw any more bad money into this thing if I have to ultimately get rid of it. I don't mind spending on a PCIII, but need to know it has cured these issues on EVERYBODY who has one.

My concern with the PCIII is since you have to disconnect the O2 sensor, and bike doesn't have a baro sensor, is it going to work like a damn carburetor, running super rich at altitude?? If not, what is going to compensate for altitude with no baro sensor and no O2 sensor??

Thanks gang. Will also post on the ongoing problem thread, but I wanted a separate thread as I don't want to wait for months (or years) for Yamaha to come up with a fix. They haven't done it in over a year. Take care

JC

 

[Keone]

Hey ELP_JC,

I know what you mean.... you might want to read 2007 Altitude Surging Problem - Members Wanted there are many others that have this problem including me.... I also have a PCIII installed on my bike while I think it help a little it doesn't eliminate the problem... I hope a fix if found soon

KEone

 

[ELP_JC]

I also have a PCIII installed on my bike while I think it help a little it doesn't eliminate the problem... I hope a fix if found soon

Oh man. Crap. Well, guess makes no sense to throw my money away then, does it? Thanks a bunch buddy.

And yes, I've been following that thread since the beginning, but it mostly talks about the problem (as expected), not of a solution. Remember reading a guy saying the PCIII solved all his surging problems. I initially said why the hell would anybody spend $300 to fix a problem Yamaha needs to fix? I'd gladly do it now; don't even want to ride the POS again like that. Glad I haven't ordered the seat or throttlemeister (which it needs badly), but already ordered many other things.

I like to be positive, but the truth is it's going to take at least months to find a fix. Yamaha just started getting involved, apparently, but the freaking bike regional tech was riding didn't act up when he rode it. A Yamaha employee finally acknowledged his bike surging, but imagine how long the darn process will last? Without a fix, guess we have no choice but to wait. I don't ride in summer anyway, but had a trip planned for September. I can always stop and restart the damn bike, no? Shouldn't have sold my other bike at the very least; am down to just this one. My damn luck. Thanks again buddy.

JC

 

[chiefj48]

I also have a PCIII installed on my bike while I think it help a little it doesn't eliminate the problem... I hope a fix if found soon

Oh man. Crap. Well, guess makes no sense to throw my money away then, does it? Thanks a bunch buddy.

And yes, I've been following that thread since the beginning, but it mostly talks about the problem (as expected), not of a solution. Remember reading a guy saying the PCIII solved all his surging problems. I initially said why the hell would anybody spend $300 to fix a problem Yamaha needs to fix? I'd gladly do it now; don't even want to ride the POS again like that. Glad I haven't ordered the seat or throttlemeister (which it needs badly), but already ordered many other things.

I like to be positive, but the truth is it's going to take at least months to find a fix. Yamaha just started getting involved, apparently, but the freaking bike regional tech was riding didn't act up when he rode it. A Yamaha employee finally acknowledged his bike surging, but imagine how long the darn process will last? Without a fix, guess we have no choice but to wait. I don't ride in summer anyway, but had a trip planned for September. I can always stop and restart the damn bike, no? Shouldn't have sold my other bike at the very least; am down to just this one. My damn luck. Thanks again buddy.

JC

are you the guy that said we needed to bend over to sell our bikes at lower prices?? i guess you got bent over LOL.

good luck!!

 

[ELP_JC]

are you the guy that said we needed to bend over to sell our bikes at lower prices?? i guess you got bent over LOL.good luck!!

I don't know what the f*** are you talking about. I bought at what my local dealer wanted to sell, and both were happy with the deal. Wrong guy, I guess.

JC

 

[Medium Al]

Hey gang. Just came back from a 300-mile ride to the mountains. I'm one pissed off MoFo. I had to cross a 1K' mountain to get to the highway to Cloudcroft, and this f***ing POS was bucking like a bronco ALL THE FREAKING way (60 miles), even though the altitude where I started and all those 60 miles was the same. Only thing I did was climb that mountain to cross to the other side of the city and get on the highway. This is ridiculous.
And yes, changed the CO levels from 7 to 5,4,stock... same crap. Seemed to work best at 5, but as it was said before, this is NOT the cure at all. And once I started climbing, SOB, it was almost unridable. And didn't matter if I had the tach at 3,4, even 6K rpms. NOTHING worked. Didn't have to stop, but the POS didn't stop bucking all the freaking way. Even checked the TPS with the DiAg (01 is the throttle angle), which showed 15 at rest (OK), and 100 at WOT, so it's obviously operating properly. I had to shut it off on top or I'd had been on my a$$ in the twisties, and it worked relatively fine (minor surging) after that, since altitude changes were mild. It was around 8,700'. I didn't have a problem going down, but I didn't expect to, since it's a pretty steep downhill.

No freaking way I can take this thing on a trip. So my question to the group is simple: Is the PCIII a 100% cure to the problem?? DON'T want to throw any more bad money into this thing if I have to ultimately get rid of it. I don't mind spending on a PCIII, but need to know it has cured these issues on EVERYBODY who has one.

My concern with the PCIII is since you have to disconnect the O2 sensor, and bike doesn't have a baro sensor, is it going to work like a damn carburetor, running super rich at altitude?? If not, what is going to compensate for altitude with no baro sensor and no O2 sensor??

Thanks gang. Will also post on the ongoing problem thread, but I wanted a separate thread as I don't want to wait for months (or years) for Yamaha to come up with a fix. They haven't done it in over a year. Take care

JC

PCIII will make it somewhat bearable and not as dangerous, and wake up the motor quite a bit under normal conditions. It will still stall/surge with altitude changes but not as bad. Maybe 50% less. I felt the bike without the PCIII could have got me killed, I live in the mountains and every ride has elevation changes. Now it's just annoying and you pull over, turn off the engine, restart, and it's fine again until you climb another 1500 ft or so. Still not completely safe, and I cancelled a 3000 mile road trip with the bike for this reason. I bought the damn bike for this trip but that's another story.

Disconnecting the O2 sensor is a must. PCIII adds fuel to the stock default (open loop) map. When the O2 sensor is plugged in, it will try to undo what the PCIII is doing. Running without the O2 sensor is fine, the ECU still measures engine air pressure (manifold absolute pressure) with the MAP sensor, that and intake + engine temp + throttle position sensor is way better than any carb. In theory. If the ECU is programmed right. The O2 sensor is just for fine tuning for mainly emissions purposes and to satisfy the Hillary Clinton types.

 

[PA1195]

Is it running lean or rich when the problem occurs?...seems like a lean issue but ???...here's a test to try if you can...I'd do it to mine if it were causing me a problem but no hills here and only 450' ASL...disconnect the O2 sensor and ride...that should put the ECU in open-loop basemap mode, and likely will trigger an error code that can be erased (see Service Manual), but the bike will still be "Able" to run...if no change then the base F/I map may also problematic, another sensor or connection is faulty, or there are fuel supply/injector issues from heat-induced vapor lock due to the closed fuel supply rail or ???...if it gets better, then the partially closed-loop Alpha-n load based F/I setup Yamaha uses has a problem maybe due to a reported (by another member here) '07 programming change from the '06...the bike should run rich in basemap mode I'd guess...I'm not an expert in this at all, and am just trying to narrow down a source of the problem...others please respond if my thinking is faulty or if there's a better approach or tests to defining the problem.

Edit: Just read Post#198 in the 5-page thread below that reported that the instant MPG dropped when the surging problem happened...due to a Rich mixture?...might be another thing to note when the issue happens = is there a sudden change in MPG when surging???

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[Medium Al]

Is it running lean or rich when the problem occurs?...seems like a lean issue but ???...here's a test to try if you can...I'd do it to mine if it were causing me a problem but no hills here and only 450' ASL...disconnect the O2 sensor and ride...that should put the ECU in open-loop basemap mode, and likely will trigger an error code that can be erased (see Service Manual), but the bike will still be "Able" to run...if no change then the base F/I map may also problematic, another sensor or connection is faulty, or there are fuel supply/injector issues from heat-induced vapor lock due to the closed fuel supply rail or ???...if it gets better, then the partially closed-loop Alpha-n load based F/I setup Yamaha uses has a problem maybe due to a reported (by another member here) '07 programming change from the '06...the bike should run rich in basemap mode I'd guess...I'm not an expert in this at all, and am just trying to narrow down a source of the problem...others please respond if my thinking is faulty or if there's a better approach or tests to defining the problem.
Gary in Fairbanks

It's a software + missing sensor(s) issue most likely. Resetting the ECU, turn the bike off and on and the problem goes away, until you go another 1000-1500 ft in elevation. It happens wheterh the O2 sensor is connected or not. There's a huge thread on this, check it out "altitude surging" or something in this section.

 

[PA1195]

Is it running lean or rich when the problem occurs?...seems like a lean issue but ???...here's a test to try if you can...I'd do it to mine if it were causing me a problem but no hills here and only 450' ASL...disconnect the O2 sensor and ride...that should put the ECU in open-loop basemap mode, and likely will trigger an error code that can be erased (see Service Manual), but the bike will still be "Able" to run...if no change then the base F/I map may also problematic, another sensor or connection is faulty, or there are fuel supply/injector issues from heat-induced vapor lock due to the closed fuel supply rail or ???...if it gets better, then the partially closed-loop Alpha-n load based F/I setup Yamaha uses has a problem maybe due to a reported (by another member here) '07 programming change from the '06...the bike should run rich in basemap mode I'd guess...I'm not an expert in this at all, and am just trying to narrow down a source of the problem...others please respond if my thinking is faulty or if there's a better approach or tests to defining the problem.
Gary in Fairbanks

It's a software + missing sensor(s) issue most likely. Resetting the ECU, turn the bike off and on and the problem goes away, until you go another 1000-1500 ft in elevation. It happens wheterh the O2 sensor is connected or not. There's a huge thread on this, check it out "altitude surging" or something in this section.

Agreed...have read them all to date and have posted some...be good to check for any weird MPG changes on the meter as noted in my edited post above and observed by another op...also sudden MPG changes may mean the engine is at such times no longer in compliance with Federal and State emission standards...not nice to fool with Mother Government.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[ELP_JC]

Gary, my 'instant fuel mileage' meter is not that instant; it takes longer than the surges to change, so no changes in my case while on the highway. With the more severe surging I honestly didn't even think about that; was too damn busy making sure I didn't end up as a hood/trunk ornament.

Al, I know most FI bikes are still open loop (not for long though), but they DO have a baro sensor. That's why I was asking. Seems Yamaha thought the O2 sensor could replace the baro sensor, along with the tricks you mentioned, but when you take the O2 sensor out of the equation, how does the ECU knows at what altitude are you? Is the intake pressure sensor enough?? There's no O2 sensor to tell the ECU if mixture is rich or lean. And yes, I much rather have an open loop EFI properly working than this abomination. If a PCIII doesn't eliminate the problem, as it seems to be the case, I'm going to wait for Yamaha.

After thinking about this once relaxed, I don't want any other bike, plus making 2 or 3 more stops to clear the stupid computer I could have eliminated most of my bad experiences. Although a PITA, I'm willing to wait for Yamaha to fix this. After all, they already fixed the FZ1 for '07, and it had the same darn problem. Why not the FJR?

If we all call Yamaha and file a complaint with the NHTSB, they'll be forced to do so sooner rather than later. At least I hope so, because I won't be trading my bike for an '08 if Yamaha leave us hanging. In fact, this would be my first and last Yamaha ever, but I'm almost sure they'll fix it, not because they're nice guys, but because bad publicity is bad for them, and if we make enough waves, they'll have no choice. Thank you all for your great help.

Remember any discussion about the problem to use the other thread. I thought it was a solution to it with the costly PCIII, but turned out to be wrong. There's no doubt they can fix the problem, but the better question is at what cost, which will dictate their course of action. With the NHTSB's intervention, they'd have no choice. Good evening.

JC

 

[madmike2]

I thought the NewGen bikes had a "Baro" sensor.

 

[ELP_JC]

I thought the NewGen bikes had a "Baro" sensor.

Nope. GenI did. And the bean counters also removed the fuel pressure regulator, and God knows what else. Oh, but we got linked brakes instead :dribble: :angry2: .

 

[huk finn]

it would be interesting to see what the readings of an air/fuel ratio meter would give when their acting up. The cheap one wont work with a catalitic converter (cheap one clips on exhaust tip). The cat should burn any rich mixture, not giving a true reading.

Has anyone with the problem ever checked the color of the catalitic converter when acting up (glowing red)?

 

[hoghead]

Greetings,

I have also been following the surging threads and ran across this. Found it interesting if you did not see it.

hh

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=22699

 

[pawtracks]

are you the guy that said we needed to bend over to sell our bikes at lower prices?? i guess you got bent over LOL.good luck!!

I don't know what the f*** are you talking about. I bought at what my local dealer wanted to sell, and both were happy with the deal. Wrong guy, I guess.

JC

How soon we forget... :glare:

When I originally read your post that chiefj48 is referring to I thought to myself "What an ******" Who comes into someone's 'For-Sale' thread and says hey I have no interest in your bike, prices are lower over here, it's time to bend over, "Take care" WTF??

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//style_emoticons/default/******.gif

Hi there. I'm not after your bike, since I live 3K miles away, but just wanted to tell you my local dealer sells me a brand new '07 for $12.2K (don't like the color). And other larger dealers are selling them anywhere from $11.5K to $12.3K, as evidenced by www.cycletrader.com Hope you get what you want, but you're at the worst possible time to sell. I'm in your exact same boat with a different bike, and decided if I want to sell it, it's time to bend over, so to speak. Nobody said life was fair :angry2: . Take care.

JC

You my friend are in violation of rule #4 of the forum guidelines.

Take the time to set things right, step up to the plate and give Joe (chiefj48) the apology he deserves.

P.S. Sorry you are having issues with your new bike, that definitely does suck. Take care.

P.P.S Joe's bike is still for sale, help spread the word (sounds like he has a working '07)

[/Thread hijack over]

 

[painman]

Hey just a long shot, a thought came to my feeble mind that there have been I think 4 bikes on the forum in the Gen II models that had a faulty ignition wire. Don't remember the posts but the wire is at a severe bend or kink near the top triple tree in the wire loom guide the goes up into the ignition switch. The bikes that had the ignition wire fail was due to the stress put on this wire from the factory and lose of power was a result and the preventative operation was to cut the tie wrap on that loom and install a looser tie wrap. Question might be did the owners of these bikes have intemittent surging problems before the wire failed? Like lose of power that could cause a surge? I'm probablly off base here but just a thought. I know this problem has been out there, my 06 had the stumble surge at altitude one time at approx. 3500 ft. elev. and the only thing I did was raise the idle to 1000 rpm by reccomendation from another member who had the same issue on his 06 and solved his problem and havent had the issue since. Both our 06 vins were the early 06 models. I know that has been done on the bikes with the chronic problem and there needs to be another answer to the present problem though. That was one year ago my bike had the problem but for sure Yamaha has "not" been working on this issue until just very recently because now there are numbers of bikes involved that has caused them to commit. So patience is needed at the present for this issue to be identified and fixed. I have heard of problems of this nature can take time because the main problem is if a problem is not consistant it can be very difficult to pin down, but give it enough time and with more bikes involved hopefully it can be done. Hey don't feel too bad, just a couple years ago on the board the discussion was surging issues and no one could figure out the issue and then finally someone figured out you could do your own TBS and eliminate the surging issue. One thing for sure, those who have installed the PCIII has not eliminated this current surge/stumble issue nor is it idle increase, CO changes/jumper mod, TBS, change out sensor's nor anything else tried so far. Swapping out the ECU's from an 06 to an 07 does sound like the place to start as mentioned. Another fix is out there though. PM. <><

 

[Medium Al]

Al, I know most FI bikes are still open loop (not for long though), but they DO have a baro sensor. That's why I was asking. Seems Yamaha thought the O2 sensor could replace the baro sensor, along with the tricks you mentioned, but when you take the O2 sensor out of the equation, how does the ECU knows at what altitude are you? Is the intake pressure sensor enough?? There's no O2 sensor to tell the ECU if mixture is rich or lean.

??? They did not "replace" the baro sensor with the O2 sensor. The two have nothing to do with each other and perform completely different and unrelated functions. There are plenty of MAP-only based FI systems out there with no baro sensor (designed that way) that run fine, with or without O2 sensors. The O2 sensor is for emissions only & only functions in a very narrow range of values and then on systems with cats.

Hey just a long shot, a thought came to my feeble mind that there have been I think 4 bikes on the forum in the Gen II models that had a faulty ignition wire. Don't remember the posts but the wire is at a severe bend or kink near the top triple tree in the wire loom guide the goes up into the ignition switch. The bikes that had the ignition wire fail was due to the stress put on this wire from the factory and lose of power was a result and the preventative operation was to cut the tie wrap on that loom and install a looser tie wrap. Question might be did the owners of these bikes have intemittent surging problems before the wire failed? Like lose of power that could cause a surge? I'm probablly off base here but just a thought. I know this problem has been out there, my 06 had the stumble surge at altitude one time at approx. 3500 ft. elev. and the only thing I did was raise the idle to 1000 rpm by reccomendation from another member who had the same issue on his 06 and solved his problem and havent had the issue since. Both our 06 vins were the early 06 models. I know that has been done on the bikes with the chronic problem and there needs to be another answer to the present problem though. That was one year ago my bike had the problem but for sure Yamaha has "not" been working on this issue until just very recently because now there are numbers of bikes involved that has caused them to commit. So patience is needed at the present for this issue to be identified and fixed. I have heard of problems of this nature can take time because the main problem is if a problem is not consistant it can be very difficult to pin down, but give it enough time and with more bikes involved hopefully it can be done. Hey don't feel too bad, just a couple years ago on the board the discussion was surging issues and no one could figure out the issue and then finally someone figured out you could do your own TBS and eliminate the surging issue. One thing for sure, those who have installed the PCIII has not eliminated this current surge/stumble issue nor is it idle increase, CO changes/jumper mod, TBS, change out sensor's nor anything else tried so far. Swapping out the ECU's from an 06 to an 07 does sound like the place to start as mentioned. Another fix is out there though. PM. <><

If the wire is a sneaky wire that only fails when you go up in altitude, and knows to stop acting up when you switch the ignition off and on, then, yeah, maybe it's that wire.

 

[v65]

I thought the NewGen bikes had a "Baro" sensor.

Nope. GenI did. And the bean counters also removed the fuel pressure regulator, and God knows what else. Oh, but we got linked brakes instead :dribble: :angry2: .

And the point is? If this was the issue then '06's would be effected also and this problem would have reared its ugly head a long time ago. My money is on a remapped ECU, as has been suggested elsewhere. Anybody in western ny with an '07 surger wanna play swap (ECU's, temporarily)?

 

[painman]

If the wire is a sneaky wire that only fails when you go up in altitude, and knows to stop acting up when you switch the ignition off and on, then, yeah, maybe it's that wire.

Yes, you are getting very warm. If that sneaky wire is connected to the Engine Control Unit that is part of the ignition system, and knows when you turn the engine on and off, then well yes, it could very well be. But my question is has anyone received any fault codes on the ECU? Especially a number 50 which may not appear on the meter which can be a big problem because the program and data are not properly written on or read from the internal memory. And on top of that open and closed circuits can cause symptoms that are happening with the ECU such as a bad wire. Now that's sneaky. PM. <><