Killed my Engine

[fossilrider]

Not sure if this will help but there is a website in the U.S. which you can submit a request to, they tie together numerous bike salvage yards.

U.S. Bike Salvage

john

 

[tstaff]

$ 1,200.00

Might be worth a look?

 

[huron52]

I thank you Ionbeam to allow all of us on here to hear whats happening. I know it must be very tough.

When I changed my CCT at the second valve adjustment the cam chain and gear/teeth were describe as in excellent condition. He was surprised to see how clean it was up there.

In fact the mechanic took photos and sent them to me.

 

[HaulinAshe]

Perhaps Scab has a lead on where his old bike went???

Just a thought. It was a non-ABS 05 in good condition, possible bent frame.

 

[exskibum]

My sympathies -- this hurts! I've been following this thread, and thinking that this has to be one of the most gut wrenching mechanical failures on an otherwise sound bike that I've read about in a while. While it probably drives you most nuts (it would me) that it happened while you were working on it in the garage, thank God it didn't happen while you were riding it. A question, however.

I follow all of this, except the following:

The mechanic says that the BUCKETS were driven into the cylinder head almost .250” ouch, ouch, ouch. First order of business is to inspect the cylinder head for splits resulting from the buckets being hammered in. If it passes this inspection, then they will measure the valve guides on the intake side.

Just curious, since mechanical function of engines is fascinating to me, but if you might, can you explain the mechanism that would cause this? In my mind, and not having had the valve cover off an FJR, I'm imagining that if it's the cam lobes doing this damaging "bucket driving", the cam timing shouldn't matter. I get it that the valve train between the rising piston and cam lobe is being crunched hard, but I'm obviously missing the connection as to how the out of time piston and camshaft actuated buckets and valves would cause the buckets to be "hammered in". Hammered into the head?

Hoping for the best news in today's diagnostics for you.

 

[radman]

My sympathies -- this hurts! I've been following this thread, and thinking that this has to be one of the most gut wrenching mechanical failures on an otherwise sound bike that I've read about in a while. While it probably drives you most nuts (it would me) that it happened while you were working on it in the garage, thank God it didn't happen while you were riding it. A question, however.
I follow all of this, except the following:

The mechanic says that the BUCKETS were driven into the cylinder head almost .250” ouch, ouch, ouch. First order of business is to inspect the cylinder head for splits resulting from the buckets being hammered in. If it passes this inspection, then they will measure the valve guides on the intake side.

Just curious, since mechanical function of engines is fascinating to me, but if you might, can you explain the mechanism that would cause this? In my mind, and not having had the valve cover off an FJR, I'm imagining that if it's the cam lobes doing this damaging "bucket driving", the cam timing shouldn't matter. I'm obviously missing the connection as to how the out of time piston and camshaft actuated buckets and valves would cause this.

Hoping for the best news in todays diagnostics for you.

I would imagine the cam lobe opening the valve, while piston attempts to close it, would produce the desired effect. On a pushrod motor, bent pushrods, broken rocker arms, collapsed lifters are the usual result. Irresistible force, immovable object and all that.

 

[exskibum]

I would imagine the cam lobe opening the valve, while piston attempts to close it, would produce the desired effect. On a pushrod motor, bent pushrods, broken rocker arms, collapsed lifters are the usual result. Irresistible force, immovable object and all that.

Yeah, all that makes sense to me, and is what I would expect, Rad. I guess I'm missing the bucket into head part, though. Is it fracturing and hitting the head around the valve guides as a part of that train wreck, and what is actually driving it into the head? Surely not just the lift of the lobes, since timing would not seem to matter there. The train wreck you describe obviously must be the cause; I'm just wondering how the head gets the brunt of that wreck instead of the valve train.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more it seems that it must be a lateral movement of the buckets from this train wreck between the piston and the cam lobes. Still curious about what the shop found in this regard and how it occurred.

 

[snikr]

Alan,

Thanks for the update. And I do feel for you. It does SUCK not being able to ride this time of year. Work is gettng in my way. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. Mine will be put to sleep soon as the rear shock has to go out for a rebuild. And I did get the Starcom1 intercom. You'll have to check it out next time we ride together.

Tom

 

[ionbeam]

1 - is the valve

7 - is the valve stem seal

3 - is the valve spring seat

4 - is the valve spring

5 - is the valve spring retainer

6 - are the cotters a.k.a. valve keepers (locks into the groove in the valve stem, locking all the previous parts together

8 - is the shim (adjusting pad) that you select to set valve clearance

9 - is the bucket that fits over all the previously assembled parts

The 'bucket' is a thimble shaped item that goes over all the parts. In the picture below, the bucket is shown enclosing all valve the parts. The item in gray is the 'shim' or adjuster. This is why this system is called Shim Under Bucket! The cam lobe presses directly on the top of the bucket/shim to open the valve.

When the cam chain slipped mechanical timing, the valves opened too soon. While the valves were being opened (into the combustion chamber) the pistons came up. The cams held the valves in place while the upward moving piston then crushed the intake valve assembly in between. The buckets were apparently pushed down into the pockets in the cylinder head too far. It is a pretty good guess that the springs are distorted too. Ionbeam's personal Big Bang ensued.

Edited: exskibum, I just re-read your post and realize my reply here was more basic that what you were looking for. I suspect that off-center valve spring bind may have caused what the mechanic reported. It remains to be seen if he stated what he saw correctly, if the dealership owner interpreted what he heard correctly or if I misunderstood as the owner reported :blink: I will be stopping by as soon as I won't be in the way to see for myself.

 

[tstaff]

I don't understand how the bucket could be pushed/rammed into the cylinder head more than at maximum lift on the cam?

 

[ionbeam]

Hot off the press – the valve buckets are stuck because valve stems have bent to a point that they have wedged them in. The dealer is no longer claiming the buckets to be driven into the head. It seems the mechanic tried to move the buckets and casually observed that it seemed like the buckets were driven in .xxx amount, from there the owner called and said that the buckets were driven in. Chains of communication = chains of confusion, there is nothing like talking to the mechanic directly.

From bad to worse ---> They have found two exhaust valves to be bent also. One head bolt had to be drilled and extracted. With the heads off they can feel ‘looseness in some of the pistons' and the engine does not rotate smoothly. He also notes that the pistons seem to be 'dinged pretty good'.

I will speak with the dealer later today and we will be discussing options. Right now the dealer is saying that a replacement motor may be the most economical solution. He also says that if we go through with the repair of my nuked motor he would expect it to run 'better than new' because he will hand build the motor with parts selected in a way that a mass assembly line can't. Um, maybe, I'm pretty sure he is thinking that my engine will be similar to 'blue printed'. High end Japanese motors come from the factory already pretty well dialed in so there probably isn’t much to be gained by hand building.

My '04 has just 40k on it, making me a bit reluctant to put in a replacement engine with >60k miles so I'm still going to look around.

I have compulsories at work tomorrow so I will swing by later in the day and take another look myself.

:cray:

 

[exskibum]

:cray: :bad:

Oh man -- this really doesn't sound good. The bucket problem makes sense now, but damn, man: it's starting to sound like just replacing the head would have been better than how this is shaping up with piston and lower end issues, too. :bad:

Wishing you much luck finding a Gen 1 engine with low miles out of a bike that was totaled mostly on tupperware and front end damage/cost issues (with the engine uninvolved).

 

[BobbyBlue]

Allen,

Sorry to hear of your troubles..dooood ! And I cant believe that you are still out here educating and informing us less..uum...mechanically inclined, at least me anyways, to your totally suckass situmation...I mean its got to be like show and tell with a huge ass boil extraction...and you do it with diagrams !!! You have always offered such great thoughtful advice...it just must be your karma this go round. As I have a noisy valve train on my 05 with 32K, I am following this closely. I have 2 more years of yes coverage and its looking like I may get to use it too ! Thank you for sharing...lots of us feel your pain.

You are an oak, sir.

Blessings on ya man,

Bobby

 

[painman]

Ion, really sorry about the update and hope all things work out for you. I while browsing Cycle Trader, remembering your from NH, saw a 2003 for sale with only 6500 mi. on the clock for $7,895 in Albany NH. If interested PM me for more info. I'm not associated with this bike but just trying to help. If things aren't looking good this might be a viable alternative. PM. ><>

 

[Fred W]

An even better deal:

clicky

But that doesn't do anything for the '04 he has in the shop right now.

gotta love his plate...

[edit] That bike is beautiful. Oh wait, it looks just like mine!

 

[markjenn]

Almost always, the best and most economic solution in these sorts of matters is a used engine from wreck. It's not without risk, but there's some risk to having a motor rebuilt to the degree this one is needing also. It doesn't take much to total an FJR and many of these totalled chassis have essentially new motors.

- Mark

 

[snikr]

MAN this latest news just BLOWS! Let me know if you need a ride, truck/trailer for transport or just moral support.

Tom

 

[FJRAust]

hmm

If I recall you described the initial bang and clunk under starter motor, The engine didn't actually fire. (of course when the valves are open as the spark occurs)

Getting to the point quickly.

I would expect damage on the piston crowns, I would not expect bottom end damage. The FJR I believe runs lead bearings for bigends.

Of course what choice do you have but to listen to the pros but I would think

1. Remove any buring on the piston crown.

2. Check the Cams aren't bent (if so bend them back or replace them)

3. A complete head rebuild is in order (possibly a new head, but I doubt it)

Maybe consider the minimalistic approach to repairing this.

Just how much damage can the starter motor do.. This engine wasn't even running when piston and valve met.

Anyway just my 2 bobs worth.

Once again very sorry to hear about this nasty issue and best of luck with resolving it..

 

[clutchless1]

hmmIf I recall you described the initial bang and clunk under starter motor, The engine didn't actually fire. (of course when the valves are open as the spark occurs)

Getting to the point quickly.

I would expect damage on the piston crowns, I would not expect bottom end damage. The FJR I believe runs lead bearings for bigends.

Of course what choice do you have but to listen to the pros but I would think

1. Remove any buring on the piston crown.

2. Check the Cams aren't bent (if so bend them back or replace them)

3. A complete head rebuild is in order (possibly a new head, but I doubt it)

Maybe consider the minimalistic approach to repairing this.

Just how much damage can the starter motor do.. This engine wasn't even running when piston and valve met.

Anyway just my 2 bobs worth.

Once again very sorry to hear about this nasty issue and best of luck with resolving it..

A starter motor has the gearing and torque that when applied is not only able to spin a high compression engine like it's nothing, but also has the strength to tear an engine to pieces if things aren't in their right place. Sure a starter may eventually lock up from being bound, but by that time when something like this happens, it's all over. Now, If the CCT went out and allowed the chain to jump two teeth on the sprocket while the engine was running, they only thing left would be pieces of aluminum and what ever other metals are in the engine. These engines for the most part are aluminum, and yeah aluminum is strong and light in weight, but it can only stand so much abuse before something bad happens.

 

[HIGHLANDER]

....................... worse yet you should hear my wife bitch about loosing her fall riding.
I wish a loaner was a prospect!

Wife or bike ???? Sorry could resist !

Here the link to Fremont Cycle Salvage. There's a 04 that's damaged, needs a lot of plastic. It's been there at least a few months so they may part or reduce the price. I can get the previous owners contact info if you want to check bike history as he bought my 04 rather than buying back his bike ( which was taken out by a flock of suicidal turkeys ... I ain't kidding :blink: )

They also had a 07 AE that was complety stripped of all plastic, including the headlights, , looked like a naked bike. It still had stock tires so I'm guessing it had under 3000 miles. Didn't look like it'd been down, maybe a theft recovery ?

https://www.fremontcycle.com/bikes/index.cf...7&PageNum=3