Liability Form?

[gypsy]

Does anyone have a copy of a liability form saying that each participant is responsible for their own actions at a rally? I can't recall if there was something like this at WFO last year. Want to make something up for CFR.

Thanks

Jude

 

[luvtoride]

I've not seen anything like this at any of the EOM's... but I think that it would be wise to have something like this. I've wondered who is responsible if something happens.

I've heard that if money exchanges hands, that there is a liability... to the receiver of the dough... but I am no lawyer & I'm skeptical if this is true... being that NONE of the rallies that I have attended & paid at, worried about it.

 

[Ignacio]

We haven't done anything like that at WFO or NAFO in the past.

Although, I am looking into that next step this Fall of forming some specific organization to reduce liability for volunteers and it may include something like that.

If/when I do, I'll share.

Matt

 

[gypsy]

I remember discussing it with Dave (Fast Joy Ride) quite a long time ago. He is the president of an insurance company and he thought it would be a good idea. He is off on the Three Flags Rally now but we should pick his brain when he returns.

Jude

 

[madmike2]

IIRC, this subject was broached to James Burleigh by a Harley dealer...that he'd be held legally responsible if he organized a ride and someone was injured. I believe a couple of lawyers on the forum responded that each person was responsible for themselves as he wasn't a "paid tourmaster" as might be the case where someone organizes rides and provides routes, lodging, caters meals, etc. like some of the tours touted in the motorcycle magazines.

This is one of the reasons that the rides I now plan are called "shared destination rides". Everyone is given a map, indicated where we are likely to have a rest stop and lunch, etc., but we no longer call them "group rides" and there is no "official" leader. If someone chooses to follow me and ride my pace, etc., that is their decision.

Still, a form signed by each person would tend to alleviate any questions or lawsuits brought by the family of someone injured (or worse).

 

[twistedcricket]

I remember discussing it with Dave (Fast Joy Ride) quite a long time ago. He is the president of an insurance company and he thought it would be a good idea. He is off on the Three Flags Rally now but we should pick his brain when he returns.
Jude

Forgive me for this is going to sound blunt, but that's exactly what I would expect from an insurance agent. Mine would remind me to tie my shoes in the morning if she were in the same town. Did he sign a waiver prior to the Three Flags Rally? Do the IBA riders have to sign a form before starting the SPANK, BUTTLITE, or IBA ride? Does that just remove the liability from IBA or does it cover the person(s) organizing it? Although they are vastly different in scope than a rally (i.e. a competition, requiring the rider to endure long hours on the bike) these are the only events I could think of that would need a release.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here; (tongue-in-cheek here, relax before and after reading)

How can we reduce the liability to the organizers while people are out on rides Friday/Saturday? Or the routes to and from the events? If someone is injured, as two were at SFO this year, while riding in the rain, a police report would state (if provided) the cause of the accident. Would it list the rallymaster as the responsible party? It's like holding Yamaha responsible for the accident. They provided the means and limited the amount of rider protection. Jocko wrecked two bikes in the span of less than 6 months THIS YEAR and, as far as I know, hasn't sued anyone. How many people had issues getting to NAFO, and how many have thought it was Iggy or Warchild's fault? (i'd blame WC, he rode the busa, that's just not right)

If someone is mugged, robbed or run over while on hotel property, is that our liability only or the hotel's? If someone gets serious food poisoning from the banquet meal, who gets the blame for that? Victim's advocates always try to cast a huge net to provide themselves, and eventually their clients, a nice payday/damage recovery, but I believe it's their burden to prove that everyone they're pointing fingers at is responsible.

I'll ask my friends who attended Sturgis this year and find out if they had to sign a waiver to attend. To me, that's the litmus test. If 300 non-helmet-wearing riders can show up and not sign a waiver perhaps we might not need to pursue this. Is there a "Sturgis Organizers, LLC" group?

Maybe we limit the events to states not starting with the letter "C" and that end with a vowel (JOKE, HAHA, BEING FUNNY, RELAX)

Personally, I don't care. I'll sign the form. I just think that by providing one you provoke the thoughts of suing someone else for your own mistakes (as a rider/attendee). I'd also give up the swag/name-tags not pay for anything but the meal directly to the provider if it limited the liability of the organizers. I know several people who feel the same way. They aren't there for the banquet, they're out to ride on roads they've never been on, or as in my case, have no chance of riding near home. I'd "donate" to the cause if a jar were passed around.

:blink:

 

[Jackson]

A year ago I went to a training session about leading group rides put on by a Harley owners organization. They have weekly group rides that are highly organized. They leave from a Harley dealership, ride together to a restaurant, then return to the dealership. (I felt like a spy, but I wanted to learn about organizing group rides. I never told them I had an FJR!)

They have insurance for their rides, and in addition, each rider must sign a waiver. The waiver is required by their insurance company. So they feel they are pretty well covered.

After talking with them, it is my understanding that if a ride is led, physically, with everyone following a leader, then the leader or the organizer or the group can be held responsible if there is an accident.

Of course anyone can sue anyone for anything and it's up to the courts to decide who if anyone is at fault. Even insurance and waivers are not 100% protection.

What Madmike said makes a lot of sense to me:

This is one of the reasons that the rides I now plan are called "shared destination rides". Everyone is given a map, indicated where we are likely to have a rest stop and lunch, etc., but we no longer call them "group rides" and there is no "official" leader. If someone chooses to follow me and ride my pace, etc., that is their decision.

At CFO last year I tried to make sure that we had no "organized" rides. The exception was the 15 mile ride from Custer to Mount Rushmore for the behind the scenes tour. That one made me very nervous because of these issues. I would do it differently next time.... "Here's a map... I'll meet you there. If you are behind me on the way, that's fine."

 

[Ignacio]

And a form isn't going to be a panacea.

It's the larger issue of minimizing the risk for people that might be well-intentioned to help in contrast to the person that might feel wronged if something happens.

It's probably going to be a combination of organizational structure, communicating expectations, forms, etc.

 

[gypsy]

Actually I am not super concerned because here in Canada it is very difficult to sue someone unless you can show they were negligent...and by that I mean truly negligent. Not like some of the ridiculous suits we see in the US news. Also lawsuits are brought before a judge not a jury. Juries have a tendency to feel sorry for the injured party and forget about actually finding negligence.

I do believe all the LD rallies have pretty through waivers though. Never been an Iron Butt but have heard that they even video tape the rider reading the waiver they sign. Is this true Iggy?

Jude

 

[Fencer]

We may have a "fall back"

Even though we are getting together to "ride", the very announcement on this forum is described as a "Regional Gathering" and not a ride from X to Z.

There are "proposed" routes for you to take, but none are mandatory.

Lets face it, in today's "its not my fault" world, someone will sue eventually, and a liability form is not going to stop that. They will do it anyway.

 

[FJRGuy]

There are "proposed" routes for you to take, but none are mandatory.

Hmmm... could a legal arguement be made that, as an organizer of a rally, someone proposed a route that, somehow, was arguably unsafe or unsuitable for motorcycles? Or that by proposing a route he/she/they increased traffic causing a loss? I would think so, lawyers can be pretty good at 'creative' arguements!

Lets face it, in today's "its not my fault" world, someone will sue eventually, and a liability form is not going to stop that. They will do it anyway.

As has been previously stated, someone can sue anyone for any reason (albeit significantly harder in Canada.) A Liability Waiver can not stop a suit but provides documented proof that a potential 'victim' understands the risks and agrees to hold the organizers harmless and takes full responsibility for thier own actions. It can go a long way to eliminating merit in a law suit.

It should also be noted that the potential for 'loss' is not limited to ride related incidents. For example, not disclosing potential food allergens in the meal(s) could be cause for a suit if some had a bad reaction. (I'm not saying a GOOD cause, just cause!)

That being said, no waiver can eliminate responsibility for negligence.

I believe that none of the good people we have attend our rallies would ever stoop to the level of suing the organizers. That being said, the purpose of a waiver is to provide some protection and peace of mind to the organizers. I hope that none of us never see the need to produce a signed copy in court.

 

[twistedcricket]

Iggy - did you/the WFO-team set up an organization or do you think a simple waiver listing the organizers individually will be sufficient?

Would we be compelled to include a waiver of liability of the hosting venue as well? Or do we think their own would be enough? i.e. most hotels clearly state they are not responsible for damages to vehicles or theft of items from vehicles in the parking lot.

 

[Ignacio]

I'm working on an LLC for the organization this year.

However, we don't promote routes or rides and let individuals get with each other at the events to do that.