Lithium-Soap-Based Grease

[Fred W]

The whole reason you want soap based grease is so you can wash up with it when you're done wrenching.

Sheesh... I thought everyone knew that.

 

[Crash Cash]

Wow, I guess I have to go back and get the right stuff now, because the stuff I got looks like blue jello.

 

[rushes]

Thanks Alan, I learned something new today.

Can I go home now?

I bet I-beam even knows a lot about grease based soap....

 

[ionbeam]

I bet I-beam even knows a lot about grease based soap....

Well, actually that would be the lye soap me grandma Zimmerman made in the farmlands outside Rolla, MO. Roughly: 20 lbs lard; 8 lbs of water; 4 lbs of lye and if you are a sissy city dweller, add 5 lbs coconut oil or other scented oil of preference. Definitely better when made with water from the rain cistern instead of creek water. (For real, want the whole recipe?)

 

[rushes]

I bet I-beam even knows a lot about grease based soap....

Well, actually that would be the lye soap me grandma Zimmerman made in the farmlands outside Rolla, MO. Roughly: 20 lbs lard; 8 lbs of water; 4 lbs of lye and if you are a sissy city dweller, add 5 lbs coconut oil or other scented oil of preference. Definitely better when made with water from the rain cistern instead of creek water. (For real, want the whole recipe?)

No no no...

I jus hoped sum dumb sumbitch'd take my bet.....

:grin:

 

[RaYzerman19]

The whole reason you want soap based grease is so you can wash up with it when you're done wrenching.

Sheesh... I thought everyone knew that.

Actually no joke. Old trick of my grandpa down on the farm when I was growing up... Next time your hands are all dirty black and oily, rub in some fresh grease and watch the dirty black come out. Wipe off, then wash up with real soap.

 

[Fred W]

The whole reason you want soap based grease is so you can wash up with it when you're done wrenching.

Sheesh... I thought everyone knew that.

Actually no joke. Old trick of my grandpa down on the farm when I was growing up... Next time your hands are all dirty black and oily, rub in some fresh grease and watch the dirty black come out. Wipe off, then wash up with real soap.

S'truth!!

And it leaves that manly, gear head scent that attracts all the nicest laydees.

I think she wants to he'p grease you up...

When are you people ever going to learn?

There ain't nothin' that Professor ionbeam don't know about!! :nerd: I've been trying to stump him (unsuccessfully) for several years now. :blink:

 

[Don G]

The manual calls for lithium grease at many inappropriate places - like the shaft splines, and assembly lube for many engine parts where anyone with a clue will use moly grease. I suspect the writer used it as the default icon, and nobody caught it.

I use Belray waterproof grease where the manual calls for lithium grease in places that make sense to me (mainly linkage, etc.) It's available in most bike shops, and seems to fight drying out.

As an aging farm-boy I know lithium grease by the name "water-pump grease," which is all I think it's really good for. Be forewarned that most available lithium grease will dry out hard and crumbly pretty quickly in dry climates.

There is (or was 40 years ago) a mil-spec lithium grease that seemed to be pretty good stuff.

 

[blkredlinedrvr]

Ive been using belray waterproof grease on everything :/. Pivot points swingarm bearings and linkages stock steering headbearings the drive shaft splines and the wheel drive splines too. I'll take it all that was wrong? Lol

 

[Don G]

Ive been using belray waterproof grease on everything :/. Pivot points swingarm bearings and linkages stock steering headbearings the drive shaft splines and the wheel drive splines too. I'll take it all that was wrong? Lol

Any grease is better than none at all, but I'd recommend switching to moly grease on the splines in particular. There's a hell of a lot of pounds per square inch on the splines, particularly the wheel drive splines, and moly can reduce wear significantly under those conditions. Since I plan on keeping this bike for many more years, and I hate driveline slop, I do all I can to reduce wear on it.

 

[Pepperell]

Any reason I couldn't use wheel bearing grease on splines and such?

 

[FJReady]

Any reason I couldn't use wheel bearing grease on splines and such?

I wouldn't hesitate at all to use wheel bearing grease on pivots, axles (wheel bearing seals) etc, but I'd go the extra step to get the Honda 60 Moly grease for the drive line splines. This includes both sides of the u-joint as well as the drive hub on the wheel. A $10 tube of the grease will last you many years. I lube my splines at every tire change(six so far) and still have about half a tube of grease left.

That said, I haven't heard of any splines failing because of lack of moly grease. But there has beem enough discussion here and other internet sites that highlight the benefits of the moly grease.

 

[Fred W]

The manual calls for lithium grease at many inappropriate places - like the shaft splines,

There's a reason for that. See below

Ive been using belray waterproof grease on everything :/. Pivot points swingarm bearings and linkages stock steering headbearings the drive shaft splines and the wheel drive splines too. I'll take it all that was wrong? Lol

Nope. Nothing wrong with that. See below.

Any grease is better than none at all, but I'd recommend switching to moly grease on the splines in particular. There's a hell of a lot of pounds per square inch on the splines, particularly the wheel drive splines, and moly can reduce wear significantly under those conditions.

I doubt that. See below.

Any reason I couldn't use wheel bearing grease on splines and such?

Nope. That'll work just fine. See below.

I wouldn't hesitate at all to use wheel bearing grease on pivots, axles (wheel bearing seals) etc, but I'd go the extra step to get the Honda 60 Moly grease for the drive line splines. This includes both sides of the u-joint as well as the drive hub on the wheel. A $10 tube of the grease will last you many years. I lube my splines at every tire change(six so far) and still have about half a tube of grease left.

That said, I haven't heard of any splines failing because of lack of moly grease.

Exactly!! And there's a reason for that, too. It's all the same reason. I've mentioned this several times before but people are very resistant to accept it as the factual truth.

If you inspect these assemblies carefully, you will see that neither the splines at the forward end of the drive shaft (at the U-joint) nor the wheel hub coupling "splines" are designed to slide laterally at all. Once you have them assembled in position the splines are fully coupled and remain that way. While there is a pretty large amount of torque and pressure being transmitted through them, there is essentially no friction.

Reducing friction is (the main reason) why we lubricate any parts. The other reasons, such as in this case, would be for corrosion protection and ease of assembly. Almost any grease would be "good enough" for corrosion protection and assembly lube. That's why the FSM specs plain old Lithium Soap Based grease for that joint.

All of the lengthwise slippage of the drive shaft, which is required during articulation of the rear suspension, happens in, and is completely restricted to, the splines at the rear end of the shaft where it couples to the final drive, which is also bathed in the final drive's gear oil. There is a spring at that rear spline coupling that forces the drive shaft forward to maintain the front spline coupling fully engaged at all times.

The genesis of these ideas that the lubrication of the drive shaft spline is of such huge importance is from BMW motorcycles where they do allow the forward spline coupling to slide during suspension flex. And some BMW owners who ignored the religious lubrication of that coupling (with a good moly lube) paid the price with worn out sloppy spline problems. So people have assumed that all shaft drive splines must be treated in the same way.

So, now that you know a little more about this particular application, should you now cease and desist from using Honda Moly on those driveshaft splines?

Nah!! Even though I know it is not required for the application, I still use it because I already have it around, it's not all that expensive, as Russ said a single tube will last you nearly a lifetime when used in the proper quantity, and it does the job. But it is still good to know that you don't have to.

Furthermore, in rear wheel mounting, the FSM calls for Lithium Soap based grease to be applied to the rear axle shaft only. Nothing on the rear wheel hub coupling "splines". Was this an oversight? Not really. There is no lateral motion of these "splines" so no friction to be lubricated. Will it hurt anything to put a light coat of grease on there? No, probably not, but make sure it is light or it will fling out and make a mess.

My point is, if you know how these things work then you would know that you don't have to be so highly concerned about their lubrication. Any old grease that you have laying around would work just fine. Sometimes the conventional wisdom is just conventional folk lore.

 

[FJRski_2007]

Since we are talking about grease/oil. I'm also looking to change my fork oil. Many people say to use other brand of oil then Yamaha, but I would like to stick with Yamaha. Is the Yamaha 01 Fork oil the way to go?

https://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/apparel/apscitemdetail/3/122/all/1/610/detail.aspx

Once dealer told me to go with this:

https://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/apparel/apscitemdetail/3/122/all/1/7762/detail.aspx

But, I dont know.

 

[Fred W]

Of course the dealer wants you to buy one of those two, they are both priced out in the stratosphere!!

Suspension oil is a commodity. I wouldn't pay any more than $10 a liter for the stuff. You'll need about 3 pints.

FWIW, fork oil has been discussed a few times before.

The main thing that you want to know is that you don't want to try and use the claimed "weight" rating on the fork oil bottle as the manufacturers claims vary hugely by viscosity.

Here's a link to an earlier post I made with a link in it to an excellent graph of all of the available weight oils.

If you want to get something that is very thin, like the Yamaha o1, just pick one of the other oils in that general area of the chart.

I went with Motul Light (claimed 5W) and it has worked well, though because it is heavier than Yamaha o1 I had to open up the dampening setting a bit more.

 

[FJRski_2007]

Fred,

Thanks for the info, I will check it out.

What type of fork oil comes in FJR from manufacture? Is it Yamaha 01?

Of course the dealer wants you to buy one of those two, they are both priced out in the stratosphere!!

Suspension oil is a commodity. I wouldn't pay any more than $10 a liter for the stuff. You'll need about 3 pints.

FWIW, fork oil has been discussed a few times before.

The main thing that you want to know is that you don't want to try and use the claimed "weight" rating on the fork oil bottle as the manufacturers claims vary hugely by viscosity.

Here's a link to an earlier post I made with a link in it to an excellent graph of all of the available weight oils.

If you want to get something that is very thin, like the Yamaha o1, just pick one of the other oils in that general area of the chart.

I went with Motul Light (claimed 5W) and it has worked well, though because it is heavier than Yamaha o1 I had to open up the dampening setting a bit more.

 

[Fred W]

Fred,

Thanks for the info, I will check it out.

What type of fork oil comes in FJR from manufacture? Is it Yamaha 01?

Yes.

 

[RaYzerman19]

I am going to offer a layman's alternate theory based on spending a few years on Honda forums before I came here, seeing too many pictures of worn splines, not knowing what Yamaha's design criteria is or how much durability testing they did, and believing that if engineers put splines in, they anticipated some movement however slight. Yeah, my 30 years in OEM automotive quality and knowing how the engineering works sways me too. Sometimes things don't get fixed unless there is a spike in warranty.

U-joint splines are usually there to allow the joint to seek a neutral position during torque and suspension movement so there is no abnormal stress on the u-joint bearings that would cause them otherwise to fail early. Spline halves cannot be zero clearance or you'd never get them together, nor would there be any room for a lubrication cushion. Lubrication also prevents corrosion so they won't seize in place, or abnormally wear. Unless we had the CAD model, I don't believe the engineers believed there is zero movement as the suspension travels, and I would think if they rusted in place, the u-joint bearings would fail early.

There is stress radially as you accelerate and decelerate, maybe you wouldn't call that friction, but the sides of the splines banging into each other will cause wear if insufficiently lubricated.

As for the rear drive splines, that same action occurs as you accel and decel. I do know that Honda rear splines get very hot, so there's something going on there somewhere. Hot to the point I'll speculate is reaching the max temperature limits of general purpose grease or maybe wheel bearing grease. Moly is superior and will withstand over 1200 F.

While the Yamaha and Honda drive spline designs are similar, they may not be the same. I don't know if the rear splines get that hot as I have not removed my rear wheel right after a 100 miler. I don't know how much testing Yamaha did with lithium soap grease, but maybe they were satisfied it would get them through the warranty period.

I'll only say I think it's worth spending $10 for moly to prevent spending a g-note later as your bike ages, not to mention the downtime and inconvenience waiting for service or parts. I have never heard of a moly-pasted spline that failed....

I'm posting one of four pictures I have, and this is the spline in the best condition. I believe it had about 60,000 miles, history of moly use unknown, but it had grease of some kind.

 

[Fred W]

That wheel spline looks really trashed. What model Honda was that from?

I've never heard of anyone having that sort of a problem on any FJR, and there are many with far more than 60k miles on them.

Makes me wonder if there is something else going on with those Honda wheel coupling? Maybe the teeth are just too soft?

Regarding heat, even if there is no friction and heat in the joint itself, the engine at the front spline and the final drive at the rear both heat up pretty good. So I suppose that's another good reason to use a heat tolerant grease / lube like moly paste.

 

[blkredlinedrvr]

Looks like FJR wheel splines. And all that brown stuff looks like grease of some kind.