Lost Power

[JamesK]

Using the frame as a negative side return or "ground" point to power anything is just poor wiring practice.It will work, but if the device being powered draws significant current problems can surface over time.

Returning all wiring back to the battery terminals is the correct way.

Your logic makes perfect sense of course, however, if one were to "make" the frame a good ground, by say grounding it in a few places with wiring going back to the Batt -ve, would that not solve a multitude of OEM and future farkle grounding issues?

 

[painman]

The reason I bring this up is the fact that since I started doing my own work on many of the farkle installs and services on my 06 FJR, I have noticed not only electrical connections but bolts and other metal fasteners as well that are pretty much corroded. Some to the point, especially some bolts, that are well pitted.

There is some type of poor grounding or electrolisis occuring on our bikes and this shouldn't be! I've had this happen on some of my other bikes but not nearly to the extent of the FJR. Like JamesK said, if one were to "make the frame a good ground it would help solve alot of OEM and farkle issues." But how to do this or determine how well our frames are grounded I don't have the know-how to make this happen. Anyone? PM. <><

 

[Fred W]

Let me help shed a little light on it for you: The frame of the FJR is never really "grounded". Unlike, say, a boat which may be grounded through the hull's contact with the conductive salt water. The FJR (like any auto) rides around electrically insulative rubber tires. The frame is never truly grounded. The entire vehicle runs on a floating power supply that has no reference to earth ground.

There is no chance for the kind of electrolysis issues to happen on a bike like they do on boats. What happens there is that some other electrical device that is also grounded will produce ground currents. If your boat's hull happens to provide a lower resistance path than the surrounding salt water then you will carry the other device's ground current through your hull. That is not possible on a bike (or car)

In automotive and motorcycle electrical systems, the frame is often used as a "common" electrical point, which is tied to the negative battery terminal. It could just as easily be connected to the positive battery terminal if they wanted to (like the old MG's as an example), but the standard is to use negative as common.

Using the frame is not really that bad a practice from an electrical standpoint, so long as the frame is securely bonded with the negative side of the battery. Auto designers use this feature all the time.

 

[Zorlac]

"so long as the frame is securely bonded with the negative side of the battery."

And therein lies the crux of the biscuit.

If the frame bond wire ever opens and the starter current tries to flow back to the battery via other returns on the frame, it's not a pretty sight.

 

[Fred W]

"so long as the frame is securely bonded with the negative side of the battery."
And therein lies the crux of the biscuit.

If the frame bond wire ever opens and the starter current tries to flow back to the battery via other returns on the frame, it's not a pretty sight.

Nice Frank Z reference.

That will only happen if you wire your farkle devices with both the frame connection and a dedicated wire back to the negative. If you just use the frame (no wire) you don't run that chance.

The problem is that all those various devices using the frame common (including the starter and alternator) cause a bunch of noise on the frame . So we often want to run a dedicated "ground wire" line back top the battery for that reason. In that case, just be sure to keep your device isolated from the frame.

[edit] In retrospect, considering what I just wrote above, this may be what is happening to these "ground blocks".

 

[iboldguy]

Do compounds like DC4 actually increase electrical conductivity or decrease it if the compound finds it's way b/w the two electrical terminals which are supposed to be making contact?

That doesn't happen. Electrical contacts work by making metal-to-metal contact by concentrating the mating force into a small area. Dielectric grease is an insulator. Its function is to coat the metal surfaces of the contacts to prevent water and corrosive stuff from attacking them.

I am confused, if dielectric is not conductive and it seems it's not, then won't coating electrical connections with the stuff make the conection worse and create more heat. Sorry I'm ignorant of electrical stuff, but if all these wires are bridged (connected??) together should something like this be used instead of dielectric grease?

https://www.sanchem.com/aSpecialE.html

 

[Fred W]

It's really not that dumb of a question. But it doesn't work intuitively.

You want to coat the connections with something to prevent oxidation and corrosion. That's the "grease" part. But you do not want something conductive or you will get unintended current flow between the various connectors. That's where the "dielectric" part comes in. Dielectric grease is made for that.

In this case it doesn't really matter so much because we are shorting all of them together anyway, so the stuff you point out will work. But in general on electrical connectors with multiple pins you want them to be isolated.

 

[olsonm3915]

Using dielectric grease on a purpose-made electrical contact does not hurt the quality of the connection, because the grease is displaced where the contacts touch each other. In other words, there is metal-to-metal contact everywhere there should be, just as if the grease wasn't there. It does not participate in the connection and does not insulate the contacts from each other since they touch each other with enough force to cut through the grease.

Again, the purpose of the dielectric grease is to coat the exposed metal surfaces of the contacts and prevent them from corroding.

I briefly looked at that website for the conductive grease- use it if you want, but I sure wouldn't.

 

[iboldguy]

It's really not that dumb of a question. But it doesn't work intuitively.
You want to coat the connections with something to prevent oxidation and corrosion. That's the "grease" part. But you do not want something conductive or you will get unintended current flow between the various connectors. That's where the "dielectric" part comes in. Dielectric grease is made for that.

In this case it doesn't really matter so much because we are shorting all of them together anyway, so the stuff you point out will work. But in general on electrical connectors with multiple pins you want them to be isolated.

Ah grasshopper thanks you. I get it - I think!? So on a battery terminal you would use the conductive anti corrosion grease but would not want any trail of it to link to any connection with the opposite pole. In this case, you would want it not to touch any non ground connection. The dielectric stuff is to cover the connection after it's made to prevent corrosion but with no risk of creating an unwanted electrical path. Yes??

Dave C

 

[Fred W]

By George, I think he's got it!

 

[mdisher]

OK, so this is the first time I've seen this fooking thread, dunno how I missed it.

Is there any correlation to this spider connector being burned up and those that have had a ignition switch fail?

Meaning, I *think* everyone in this boat who's spider connector was jacked up did experience an ignition switch failure? Not just a recall but had real honest to goodness ignition switch issues Right?

I wonder if during that failure process this thing gets fried?

I will check mine next time I'm under there.

-MD

 

[RadioHowie]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Best question of the day!

 

[Fred W]

That is an astute question based on the apparent correlation. As a guy that works with electrons on a regular basis, let me further the theory.

The ignition switch failures occur as a result of (apparently) excess current through the positive power supply path of (part of) the electric system of 2nd gen bikes. The melting ground wires are caused by excessive current through some of the ground wires. So, the same high current conditions that result in the switches to meltdown may be responsible for the ground spiders burning up.

However, if your question was: "Does the switch actually failing, or after failure, cause the ground blocks to burn up?" then the answer would be no. Once the switch begins to fail it actually limits current flow and would make wire melting in the ground wires less likely.

 

[dwhartwell]

That is an astute question based on the apparent correlation. As a guy that works with electrons on a regular basis, let me further the theory.
The ignition switch failures occur as a result of (apparently) excess current through the positive power supply path of (part of) the electric system of 2nd gen bikes. The melting ground wires are caused by excessive current through some of the ground wires. So, the same high current conditions that result in the switches to meltdown may be responsible for the ground spiders burning up.

However, if your question was: "Does the switch actually failing, or after failure, cause the ground blocks to burn up?" then the answer would be no. Once the switch begins to fail it actually limits current flow and would make wire melting in the ground wires less likely.

Well, not necessarily excessive current through the ground. The current may be correct for the application or perhaps it is also possible that the current is a bit higher than the contact rating. If we assume for a moment that the current rating is correct, then the problem could be traced to corrosion which results in increased contact resistance. If this happens you start going down a slippery slope real fast. The increase in resistance creates local heating of the contacts. Which damages the contacts creating more resistance. They get hotter still and start cooking the insulation. They cook some more and melt the plastics. At some point the connector contact force drops due to the heat which increase the resistance which generates more heat.

I pulled my 07 tank off today to look at mine. No issues at all and the spiders were all quite clean and shiny. I pulled the spiders off and filled the contacts with dielectric grease and reassembled them. I also made sure that the wires were facing straight down with the spider facing up. This should reduce the probability that water can wick its way into the contacts. Piss poor design me thinks. Only one wire was GND.

 

[BkrK12]

I had a mechanical failure of the ground receptacle (no burning - broken wire) without any sign of ignition switch failure. The only additional electrical load on my 2006 is a PCIII.

 

[zac]

Add me to the list of engine failures while driving due to a poor connection at this plug. I haven't examined it yet, but manipulating the plug gets it working again. I had the ignition and ECM recalls done about six months ago. I've had no electrical problems surface prior to this, but I did just replace my headlamps with 90w bulbs, at the assurance of the local shop that it would be OK. Stocks are 55w. I guess now would be a good time to upgrade to an HID setup.

Has anyone come up with a fix for this for those who do not have the YES warranty?

So before I start tearing up the wiring harness, does anyone know have any additional information about the wire harness "add-on kit" mentioned earlier?

I've got time to work on this today, but all the shops are closed today and tomorrow. (Of course this had to happen Saturday evening at 5:15!!!)

Thanks. Zac.

 

[dcarver]

Add me to the list of engine failures while driving due to a poor connection at this plug. I haven't examined it yet, but manipulating the plug gets it working again. I had the ignition and ECM recalls done about six months ago. I've had no electrical problems surface prior to this, but I did just replace my headlamps with 90w bulbs, at the assurance of the local shop that it would be OK. Stocks are 55w. I guess now would be a good time to upgrade to an HID setup.
Has anyone come up with a fix for this for those who do not have the YES warranty?

So before I start tearing up the wiring harness, does anyone know have any additional information about the wire harness "add-on kit" mentioned earlier?

I've got time to work on this today, but all the shops are closed today and tomorrow. (Of course this had to happen Saturday evening at 5:15!!!)

Thanks. Zac.

Good to hear you've identified the root cause problem Zac. Call San Luis Motorsports in San Luis Obispo CA, ask for Robyn, Service Manager. She's the one that told me Yamaha has a 'kit'. I had the entire wiring harness replaced with YES.

Good luck Zac!

 

[OK Red]

Ya know, it's shit like you guys are going through that makes me all the happier I still have my good ol Gen I cooker. I hate to say it, but Yamaha really took a step backwards with the 06s and 07s with all the issues they have had. However, I am wondering if they have gotten them mostly sorted out on the 08s and 09s. Except for the all too often reported case of poor shifting due to dry clutch plates.

08 here. I traded in my 2003 VFR 800 for this one... and that bike had a poorly designed electrical harness, so I tend to be deeply suspicious of any electrical issues on a bike.

So, on the way back from Sedona over the weekend the FJR died while at speed in traffic. Did not have all indications noted earlier (flashing indicators, etc), just that the bike stalled when approaching a stoplight at approximately 30 mph. I pulled in the clutch and was able to restrart on the fly and the bike ran fine afterwards. I rode it to work this am (40 miles) and had no issues... but my experience with the VFR indicates that if it happens once it will happen again.

The bike has 4K miles. Have had Brodies relay harness installed since last fall (bike had less than 1k miles).

I took a consulting job in Goodyear, Az last summer and am living in an apartment, so have no tools, no garage (my family is still in Ohio as are my tools, etc). So when the rear tire took a nail last week, I had the local shop do the replacement, and while I had it in the shop I had them do the ignition switch recall AND had them wire in the garmin power supply.

I never use high beams and have no farkles other than the Yamaha heated grips (installed at the dealership from which I purchased the bike) and now the Garmin GPS.

I'll keep an eye out for this thread and will probably buy the headlight harness described earlier in the thread.... and will buy some tools and dielectric grease and do the job myself (both installing the harness and greasing all the connectors). If I find any anomalies I'll make a followup post so the 08 folks will have some data.

 

[Pat C]

Lost POWER again while Riding. Engine shutdown; no power; inst: Flashing Gas guage;light on High Beam & hazard on.
Called local Dealer & Truck & trailer dispatched to pick me up. Fault Still on at Dealer ; Dealer is working with YAMAHA to

TROUBLE SHOOT Problem; will update link when (if ever) I get my BIKE back.

Losing Conifidence : May have to look into ANOTHER BIKE :angry2:

Had IGNATION changed earlier; could this be again?? But this time has LIGHTS on Inst. & flashing Gas guage.

Thank Goodness I was not in Danger in these Power Losses, BUT I'M LOSING FAITH in my FJR :angry:

Now using my BMW R100RT (1990) & loving the SIMPLER Life :yahoo:

I've been having problems also, just got bike back Saturday tech said it was a corroded connector from rectifer to battery.

 

[zac]

Thanks dcarver for that tip and for helping me find the problem too with your writeup. Thanks to Rickster for walking me through getting the tank off. S76's writeup hooked me up to on how to find the connector under the tank, and I think I would have given up the struggle to get that bunch of wires up and over the engine bar if he hadn't given me the green light to get 'er done! I just wired all of them together, soldered them up and dipped them in that battery anti-corrosion gunk a few times. This forum is great and just saved me a towing fee and who know how much at the shop, got me learning new skills, and got me a little more connected to my motorcycle. Thanks all!