C&C
Well-known member
That's the stuff.
Low mpg and slight power degradation
- Thread starter Cosmin
- Start date
Help Support Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum:
Donal
Well-known member
Before you commit to importing the Ring Free or Sea Foam, give me a few days to hunt around. There must be somebody in the UK who supplies a compatible product.
I have sent a few enquiries to some of the smaller specialist companies asking for their recommendations. I will let you know ASAP.
Thanks.
Actually I can find lots of similar products in Romania (2+2, Liqui Moly, STP etc) - I just don't know if they are any good. The price is similar to the one of SeaFoam (saving the shipping fees, of course) - perhaps I could just buy one of each brand and use them gradually, the only concern is if the product is low quality could it damage anything?...
Donal
Well-known member
Just had a short response from Miller's Oils "Hello Don, Thank you for your enquiry and yes our product is an alternative". Kind Regards Nigel.
My question was "Hi, I have heard a lot of good things about 'Yamaha Ring Free' particularly with regard to clearing built-up carbon deposits. Is Miller Petrol Power Ecomax a suitable alternative?
Ecomax Boost (one shot) here
Regular Ecomax here
I 'should' be able to get hold of this stuff locally, so saving on some of the delivery charges. All it should cost is retail plus whatever it costs to mails to Romania.
My question was "Hi, I have heard a lot of good things about 'Yamaha Ring Free' particularly with regard to clearing built-up carbon deposits. Is Miller Petrol Power Ecomax a suitable alternative?
Ecomax Boost (one shot) here
Regular Ecomax here
I 'should' be able to get hold of this stuff locally, so saving on some of the delivery charges. All it should cost is retail plus whatever it costs to mails to Romania.
The Yamaha Ring Free may appear to be very expensive, but it is highly concentrated and therefore you need much less than other products like Seafoam. I haven't done a cost analysis, but I suspect that the costs are similar (maybe even cheaper for the Ring Free) if you calculate the cost per tank of fuel.
Thanks, I'll check it also in detail; most people seem to prefer SeaFoam - i don't know if this happens due to better efficiency or due to the higher price "trap" you mentioned...
Thanks for the offer to help. Though initially I was planning to place the order my bike-buddies and they insist in going for SeaFoam since it's a product which for sure has a successful result on FJR. I'll pm you if we decide otherwise and we'll need your help.
Thank you very much.
Donal
Well-known member
This is getting kind of interesting. When I checked E-bay a few days ago there were quite a few postings for Yamaha Ring Free with extortionate shipping costs. I have just checked again and find only one offering and the costs are very reasonable:
E-Bay
West Marine (USA) (for comparison).
E-Bay
West Marine (USA) (for comparison).
RossKean
Well-known member
It seems that everyone is focusing on fuel additives. I think there is little likelihood that a magical chemical elixir is going to fix this issue!
80% of the time, a problem can be traced to the most recent item that was ****** with! If, as the mechanic mentioned, the valve check was done with no changes needed I would dismiss timing issues as a root cause. One caveat; if the cam chain tensioner (on an '06) is original, there is a possibility of a skipped tooth due to a faulty unit although I would expect running differences would be more extreme. If the CCT has not been changed, I would do it with the upgraded part and verify the timing afterward.
Throttle bodies removed for cleaning? What's the chance that the boots were not installed properly so there is an air leak between the TB and the intake? Certainly worth a closer look. I also agree that its worth verifying that the TBS was done correctly.
Other stuff:
Bad or marginal injector - maybe just dirty or possibly defective. The magic chemicals MIGHT help but removal, inspection and ultrasonic cleaning is far more likely to yield a good result.
Bad spark plug(s) or wires/caps/coils (any worse while riding in wet weather?)
Running with a Power Commander? Check the ground and possibly remove it to make sure it isn't the root of the problem. Could be bad or the map may have become messed up.
O2 sensor OK?
Pressure on the fuel rail up to spec
These things can be frustrating to troubleshoot. Good luck!
80% of the time, a problem can be traced to the most recent item that was ****** with! If, as the mechanic mentioned, the valve check was done with no changes needed I would dismiss timing issues as a root cause. One caveat; if the cam chain tensioner (on an '06) is original, there is a possibility of a skipped tooth due to a faulty unit although I would expect running differences would be more extreme. If the CCT has not been changed, I would do it with the upgraded part and verify the timing afterward.
Throttle bodies removed for cleaning? What's the chance that the boots were not installed properly so there is an air leak between the TB and the intake? Certainly worth a closer look. I also agree that its worth verifying that the TBS was done correctly.
Other stuff:
Bad or marginal injector - maybe just dirty or possibly defective. The magic chemicals MIGHT help but removal, inspection and ultrasonic cleaning is far more likely to yield a good result.
Bad spark plug(s) or wires/caps/coils (any worse while riding in wet weather?)
Running with a Power Commander? Check the ground and possibly remove it to make sure it isn't the root of the problem. Could be bad or the map may have become messed up.
O2 sensor OK?
Pressure on the fuel rail up to spec
These things can be frustrating to troubleshoot. Good luck!
Chiefblueman
Well-known member
Possible faulty intake air temp sensor or coolant sensor? Either of these could create a rich condition and affect mileage. Have you tried diagnostic mode? These would throw codes 22 and 21 respectively. If the TBs were removed it's likely the airbox was removed and the wiring to sensors was disconnected.
https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/154948-06-12-bin-o-facts-generation-ii/ Instructions how to enter diagnostics about halfway down this post. Probably need FSM to get list of codes.
https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/154948-06-12-bin-o-facts-generation-ii/ Instructions how to enter diagnostics about halfway down this post. Probably need FSM to get list of codes.
Thanks everyone for the replies, I started to summarise the conclusions I have so far based on the replies, PMs, other threads etc
- I found the detailed
notes of my previous maintenance on the bike and it turns out that the slightly lower power symptoms became visible in the end of 2012 bike season (autumn - approx 30.000 miles). That is before taking the bike to the workshop (April 2012 - 34.000miles) for TBs (removal, cleaning, sync) and timing sync (for timing he didn't remove anything since all were within specs, according to him). This means that neither the TB clean and sync nor the valve check did any harm or anything good - it seems the problem was already there before the intervention;
- In July 2013 I had a longer trip (6000 miles - ~43.000miles at return) to Ireland and noticed the significant range decrease between tank fill-ups during highway ride - steady 100mph. Also the wider throttle open for same highway speed was noticed (as confirmation that slight power loss suspected till then was not just an ilussion ). The bike had the OEM "small" windshield + LaminarLip which had been installed since new, so aerodynamics could not have been the cause. Also the same load (weight) was carried as in the previous summers trips, so higher load was removed from the list also. The bike developed gradually also the "lean surge" symptoms; mainly when I start moving the bike in first gear it starts moving and after that it also has a small hicup and suddenly pulls harder (it lost the smooth-linear response at very low throttle open degree). A similar symptom is faced also at gear change - due to this low angle throttle open non-linear response, when I change gear it has a rough transfer from 0 throttle to load. For this I suspect also some dirty injectors?
- Currently the bike has 54.000 miles - the symptoms are there . Tried recently a TBS which I'm not very satisfied with (I used needle type vacuum clocks which are BullSh for TBS) - so I'll repeat the procedure when I receive a Hg based tool from a friend. Anyway I doubt TBS is the cause since after TB cleaning and sync performed by the mechanic the idle was very smooth, no vibrations etc. but power loss and increased consumption were still present;
- The bike has no Power Commander, no changes occur neither during wet weather, nor after spark plugs and air filter change;
- According to recommentations, I will check also failure codes etc although, based on the colour of spark plugs internal isolator (light coffee-brown) I doubt the issue is related to rich gas-air mixture. This might lead to causes like compression (valves carbon build-up) or timing issues...
Now, sumarising all the recommendations received lately - below my next actions (as soon as the weather will improve a little ):
1) a compression test;
2) running Ashe's "extreme" carbon build-up removal method (letting the bike absorb some SeaFoam through 4 hoses connected to the TB ports used for synchronization); except a can of 2+2 injector cleaning used 3 months ago, unfortunatelly I totally neglected the carbon build-up issues mentioned on the forum and took no measures till now to prevent it (except using gas from a chain of local gas-stations which is in top in terms of cleaning additives used in the gas);
3) taking into account also the mileage of the bike and the early gen II (2006), I will proceed with the new model CCT replacement. I was recommended to change also the timing-chain since slight slack may have occured. Of course a detailed timing and valve adjust will follow;
4) I will have an injector and fuel rail (pressure) check. Anyway for cleaning the injectors I understood that chemical is not as efficient as ultrasonic method but it's safer; I heard in some cases of cars injectors failing soon after ultrasonic cleaning. The root cause was that certain injectors have an isolating paint on the wire used in the coils which is affected/melted by ultrasonic treatment (resulting, in the end, short-circuit in the coils and injectors failure?!);
5) I will remove also the PAIR system - it is useless and removal might eliminate the slight pops/backfires heard in engine break at high rpm;
6) I will check also the diag mode for identifying possible issues.
- I found the detailed
notes of my previous maintenance on the bike and it turns out that the slightly lower power symptoms became visible in the end of 2012 bike season (autumn - approx 30.000 miles). That is before taking the bike to the workshop (April 2012 - 34.000miles) for TBs (removal, cleaning, sync) and timing sync (for timing he didn't remove anything since all were within specs, according to him). This means that neither the TB clean and sync nor the valve check did any harm or anything good - it seems the problem was already there before the intervention;- In July 2013 I had a longer trip (6000 miles - ~43.000miles at return) to Ireland and noticed the significant range decrease between tank fill-ups during highway ride - steady 100mph. Also the wider throttle open for same highway speed was noticed (as confirmation that slight power loss suspected till then was not just an ilussion
). The bike had the OEM "small" windshield + LaminarLip which had been installed since new, so aerodynamics could not have been the cause. Also the same load (weight) was carried as in the previous summers trips, so higher load was removed from the list also. The bike developed gradually also the "lean surge" symptoms; mainly when I start moving the bike in first gear it starts moving and after that it also has a small hicup and suddenly pulls harder (it lost the smooth-linear response at very low throttle open degree). A similar symptom is faced also at gear change - due to this low angle throttle open non-linear response, when I change gear it has a rough transfer from 0 throttle to load. For this I suspect also some dirty injectors?- Currently the bike has 54.000 miles - the symptoms are there
. Tried recently a TBS which I'm not very satisfied with (I used needle type vacuum clocks which are BullSh for TBS) - so I'll repeat the procedure when I receive a Hg based tool from a friend. Anyway I doubt TBS is the cause since after TB cleaning and sync performed by the mechanic the idle was very smooth, no vibrations etc. but power loss and increased consumption were still present;- The bike has no Power Commander, no changes occur neither during wet weather, nor after spark plugs and air filter change;
- According to recommentations, I will check also failure codes etc although, based on the colour of spark plugs internal isolator (light coffee-brown) I doubt the issue is related to rich gas-air mixture. This might lead to causes like compression (valves carbon build-up) or timing issues...
Now, sumarising all the recommendations received lately - below my next actions (as soon as the weather will improve a little
):1) a compression test;
2) running Ashe's "extreme" carbon build-up removal method (letting the bike absorb some SeaFoam through 4 hoses connected to the TB ports used for synchronization); except a can of 2+2 injector cleaning used 3 months ago, unfortunatelly I totally neglected the carbon build-up issues mentioned on the forum and took no measures till now to prevent it (except using gas from a chain of local gas-stations which is in top in terms of cleaning additives used in the gas);
3) taking into account also the mileage of the bike and the early gen II (2006), I will proceed with the new model CCT replacement. I was recommended to change also the timing-chain since slight slack may have occured. Of course a detailed timing and valve adjust will follow;
4) I will have an injector and fuel rail (pressure) check. Anyway for cleaning the injectors I understood that chemical is not as efficient as ultrasonic method but it's safer; I heard in some cases of cars injectors failing soon after ultrasonic cleaning. The root cause was that certain injectors have an isolating paint on the wire used in the coils which is affected/melted by ultrasonic treatment (resulting, in the end, short-circuit in the coils and injectors failure?!);
5) I will remove also the PAIR system - it is useless and removal might eliminate the slight pops/backfires heard in engine break at high rpm;
6) I will check also the diag mode for identifying possible issues.
BigOgre
Well-known member
You're now sitting at 54,000 miles which means, if I did the math right, you only have 20k on it since you last had the TBs removed and properly cleaned. Seems doubtful you'd have material carbon build-up during that span, especially with the type of riding you stated.
As far as the SeaFoam douche, I believe some didn't find it too helpful. PM or search a FredW post for his experiences with it.
(A similarly related thread here.)
"[M]ainly when I start moving the bike in first gear it starts moving and after that it also has a small hicup and suddenly pulls harder (it lost the smooth-linear response at very low throttle open degree). A similar symptom is faced also at gear change - due to this low angle throttle open non-linear response, when I change gear it has a rough transfer from 0 throttle to load."
Does this hiccup thing occur at the same RPM each time no matter which gear or what speed you may be at?
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So the symptoms were already there when the mechanic removed the TB for cleaning. Before installing them back on the bike, he made a basic sync by measuring and adjusting precisely the opening of each TB. Then he made the classic sync with the TB on the bike. Judging by the smooth idle, I would say the sync was made properly. Regarding carbon build-up - could it have been already there when the mechanic removed the TBs and made all the checks etc.
On the other hand - having mainly an "agressive" riding style, I also would think that carbon build-up in general was prevented.
I'll search for it; the conclusion is that SeaFoam doesn't always solve - but I suppose it won't do any harm, right?
It is quite visible in first gear since the "pulling" force is bigger (due to gearbox ratio). If I start in first gear "agressively" I won't feel it. It is there mainly when puttinig the bike in movement in first gear normally, not at sporty startup. In higher gear it happens in the step of rolling again the throttle immediatelly after clutch release during gear change. Actually the hiccup is more like a hitch/jerk and I think it's related to the response at low throttle opening angle than to rpm. Should I suspect the TPS (although on Gen II I hear no reports) or wrong TBS?...
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Yesterday I caught a few hours of nice weather and managed to do the following on the bike:
- removed the PAIR and inserted platic plugs in the remaning hoses; also reused the aluminium plug which comes from factory installed in the additional hose (the one used for CALI models). I'll order two additional aluminium OEM plugs in order to make sure the plastic ones won't melt over time. Didn't notice any change in bike behaviour after removal. Though identified very light oil deposit on the hose coming from air filter to the PAIR valve - I suppose it's normal;
- removed spark plugs (8000 miles old) - looking very good; central isolator white and clean, no sign of black fumes deposit due to rich air/fuel mixture. On the contrary, white isolator (and not light brown) could mean lean mixture?! Also exhaust pipes present no signs of black smoke...
- made a compression test - though I am not very confident on the result since the device had a rubber part connecting in the spark plug hole (not screw tipe connector), so air might have escaped near the conncting pipe. I kept the throttle wide open and also to air filter removed during cranking in order to facilitate the air flow during measurement; the battery (installed in 2009) might have also influenced a little the compression test due to a little decreased cranking capacity. Now the results were (counting cylinders left to right in riding position): 12/12.1/12/12 bar (or aprox 174/181/174/174 PSI). If it was the case for carbon build-up on valves/valves seats I suppose the compression differences between cylinders would have been bigger?
- checked also the CO settings in diag mode and found strange values (never checked or set since I bought the bike new): -10/8/8/11 ?!
- tested the engine (bike standing) in the high rev range (6-7000 - in that range I can feel some sort power decrease/limitation in second/third gear on mountain twisties). Beside a little increased pops/backfires in the exhaust, it seemed (in the rythm of the pops/backfires) to release also very little/light black/grey smoke?! Spark plugs I removed already from the list for this behaviour; so probably unburnt gas escapes from the cylinders and ignites in the exhaust due to: spark plugs leads?! (never saw it on FJR specific issues), slightly incorrect timing (slack in chain?!), un-proper injected gas due to clogged injectors?
- removed the PAIR and inserted platic plugs in the remaning hoses; also reused the aluminium plug which comes from factory installed in the additional hose (the one used for CALI models). I'll order two additional aluminium OEM plugs in order to make sure the plastic ones won't melt over time. Didn't notice any change in bike behaviour after removal. Though identified very light oil deposit on the hose coming from air filter to the PAIR valve - I suppose it's normal;
- removed spark plugs (8000 miles old) - looking very good; central isolator white and clean, no sign of black fumes deposit due to rich air/fuel mixture. On the contrary, white isolator (and not light brown) could mean lean mixture?! Also exhaust pipes present no signs of black smoke...
- made a compression test - though I am not very confident on the result since the device had a rubber part connecting in the spark plug hole (not screw tipe connector), so air might have escaped near the conncting pipe. I kept the throttle wide open and also to air filter removed during cranking in order to facilitate the air flow during measurement; the battery (installed in 2009) might have also influenced a little the compression test due to a little decreased cranking capacity. Now the results were (counting cylinders left to right in riding position): 12/12.1/12/12 bar (or aprox 174/181/174/174 PSI). If it was the case for carbon build-up on valves/valves seats I suppose the compression differences between cylinders would have been bigger?
- checked also the CO settings in diag mode and found strange values (never checked or set since I bought the bike new): -10/8/8/11 ?!
- tested the engine (bike standing) in the high rev range (6-7000 - in that range I can feel some sort power decrease/limitation in second/third gear on mountain twisties). Beside a little increased pops/backfires in the exhaust, it seemed (in the rythm of the pops/backfires) to release also very little/light black/grey smoke?! Spark plugs I removed already from the list for this behaviour; so probably unburnt gas escapes from the cylinders and ignites in the exhaust due to: spark plugs leads?! (never saw it on FJR specific issues), slightly incorrect timing (slack in chain?!), un-proper injected gas due to clogged injectors?
Meanwhile I found some answers to some of the above questions; still need some advice on:
1) measured compression: 174/181/174/174 PSI (12/12.1/12/12 bar); I suspect it was so low due to possible "tired" battery and air escape near the compression-tester rubber-type connector (it works by keeping pressed the connector into the spark-plug hole, not by screwing it in the plug hole). I was stupid enough to forget about pouring some oil in the plug hole and repeat test for piston/ring/cylinder diagnosis. If I have the ocassion I'll repeat the test and perform also a leak-down test. But my question remains: in case of valves carbon build-up could the compression be (almost) perfectly equal between cylinders?!
2) besides the FJRs specific "normal" popping both at idle and higher rpm which I also face - I mentioned that at steady 6-7000 with standing bike I hear some misfires and also can see slight light grey/black smoke explosions in sync with the exhaus poppings - is anyone else facing that? Any ideas?
Thanks.
1) measured compression: 174/181/174/174 PSI (12/12.1/12/12 bar); I suspect it was so low due to possible "tired" battery and air escape near the compression-tester rubber-type connector (it works by keeping pressed the connector into the spark-plug hole, not by screwing it in the plug hole). I was stupid enough to forget about pouring some oil in the plug hole and repeat test for piston/ring/cylinder diagnosis. If I have the ocassion I'll repeat the test and perform also a leak-down test. But my question remains: in case of valves carbon build-up could the compression be (almost) perfectly equal between cylinders?!
2) besides the FJRs specific "normal" popping both at idle and higher rpm which I also face - I mentioned that at steady 6-7000 with standing bike I hear some misfires and also can see slight light grey/black smoke explosions in sync with the exhaus poppings - is anyone else facing that? Any ideas?
Thanks.
HaulinAshe
Well-known member
Carbon buildup around valve seats and on valve stems doesn't always translate to loss of compression during a low-rpm cold compression test. The SeaFoam treatment may not help a thing, but like you said, it won't hurt.
Your compression readings are not bad, not awesome, but like all compression tests it means a lot more with history for that particular motor and gauge combination. The fact that all four cylinders are so close is a good indicator that compression is not the issue and all four cylinders are probably healthy.
I still recommend plugging the PAIR system at the valve cover using plates. That avoids any issue of crossover between the two that share plumbing when you leave the hoses in place.
Your compression readings are not bad, not awesome, but like all compression tests it means a lot more with history for that particular motor and gauge combination. The fact that all four cylinders are so close is a good indicator that compression is not the issue and all four cylinders are probably healthy.
I still recommend plugging the PAIR system at the valve cover using plates. That avoids any issue of crossover between the two that share plumbing when you leave the hoses in place.
Thanks for reply.
Meanwhile I received answers from several SeaFoam and RingFree providers that the product cannot be shipped since it's flamable fuel. I checked also at Yamaha and they told me that Yamaha Ring Free is not sold in Europe So I'll try various other gasoline aditives available locally (Liqui Molly, 2+2, STP etc).
Regarding further investigation on the bike issues, at the next maintenance I'm planning to:
1) use the extreme de-carbon method (force absorbtion of additive through the TBs sync caps/hoses);
2) remove, clean TBs and sync; if it's possible perhaps some cranking with removed injectors to inspect the proper gasoline squirt
3) replace CCT and chain, adjust valves;
4) perhaps also spark plugs leads replacement.
Meanwhile I received answers from several SeaFoam and RingFree providers that the product cannot be shipped since it's flamable fuel. I checked also at Yamaha and they told me that Yamaha Ring Free is not sold in Europe
So I'll try various other gasoline aditives available locally (Liqui Molly, 2+2, STP etc).Regarding further investigation on the bike issues, at the next maintenance I'm planning to:
1) use the extreme de-carbon method (force absorbtion of additive through the TBs sync caps/hoses);
2) remove, clean TBs and sync; if it's possible perhaps some cranking with removed injectors to inspect the proper gasoline squirt
3) replace CCT and chain, adjust valves;
4) perhaps also spark plugs leads replacement.
Fullchat
Well-known member
".....(for timing he didn't remove anything since all were within specs, according to him)."
As a baseline before starting to look at other potential issues I would wanting to be certain that these were actually checked and not in the 'cant be arsed and too difficult to do tray'. If they haven't then that could be the root cause.
As a baseline before starting to look at other potential issues I would wanting to be certain that these were actually checked and not in the 'cant be arsed and too difficult to do tray'. If they haven't then that could be the root cause.
To be honest I also was in doubt if he really made the check or not... I paid him a visit when the bike was in service and he was in the phase of cleaning the TBs but I didn't have enough time to wait until he removes also the cylinder top and checks. I removed the tank some 2000 miles later (including after riding in rain) and the screws seemed recently touched. From what I talked to him and cooperated with him till now he seems the honest type of guy, so I'm tempted to believe him...
Anyway I'm planning to perform all the mentioned actions:
1) use the extreme de-carbon method (force absorbtion of additive through the TBs sync caps/hoses);
2) remove, clean TBs and sync; if it's possible perhaps some cranking with removed injectors to inspect the proper gasoline squirt
3) replace CCT and chain, adjust valves;
4) perhaps also spark plugs leads replacement.
I would like to perform all of them by myself but I do not have the time and conditions: the bike is stored in a garage 60 miles away from my place; I only have limitted time in weekends for "playing' on it. The garage has no heating for being able to work on the bike during winter and in spring/summer when the weather is fine in weekends I prefer to ride
)).So if I'll take the bike again to the mechanic I'll try to have some more time available and to be next to him in the "critical" phases of the maintenance.
Also taking into account one symptom mentioned before in this topic - misfires while runnning at 6-7000 mainly in second gear and also some lean surge symptoms: the bike does "pull" linearly if I want to drive constantly at 6000 rpm in second, but it pulls a little, than it pulls slower, as if I play very gentle with the throttle a little more/a little less. I understood this might be related to the lean surge symptom and the safest solution is installing a PCIII .. This means I might add at the above list also:
5) purchasing and installing a PCIII...
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