Master Yoda Riding Position

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Good Info But I'M Having a Really HARD Time reading The Whole Thing

Phew, could barely make It Past The FIRST Few paragraphs.

 
Sherman, I think you make a lot of good points. If I understand you correctly, the torso muscles are active and not passive? Indeed, it is a much better way to ride, as I did 6 hours without any arm and wrist pain.

 
The links this thread pointed to originally are dead, so this post is to quote in whole the MYRP article by Dick Franz and a follow-up comment

Master Yoda’s Riding Position
By Dick Frantz

“ Dick Frantz' Riding Position “, when its principles are applied to create certain kinds of body part relationships, turns out to apply to almost all motorcycles. I consider that any fairly healthy person, who falls within perhaps the 95th percentile of sizes, can be, or become, comfortable riding the K1200RS. Why? It was built to provide that.

True, individual physiology, our frigging size(s), and any deficiencies (I have two very injured knees), can effect how any riding configuration is responded to, and then thought about. But, You sit on top of a Sport Bike. You sit within a K1200RS. Sport Bikes require getting weight off your butt so the rider can slide his butt inside corners to effect a different CG. Consequently, Sport Bikes induce 'weight on the handle bars'.

Someone sitting on a K1200RS will note some ergonomic differences, and position their body as if they were riding a Sport Bike. Not so much dumb, as uninformed. They've prejudiced, rather than examined. They probably also carry forward certain muscle memories developed, not born with, from riding other conveyances, some of which can have been motorcycles. Armchairs come to mind. In short, people have learned to sit upright. It is not, in fact, a function for which the human body was designed and continued practice causes damage!

Automobiles promulgate the seated position. Only lately have they applied several things like Lumbar Support to keep that position from killing the user. Forgive my hyperbole, but sitting up just is not good for you.

Most motorcycles continue the promulgation. To one degree or another, they emulate Sit Upright. So much so that the term UJM, Universal Japanese Motorcycle, was partially defined by a riding position called 'Sit Up and Beg', like a puppy. This position became a mental norm. We think that's 'how a motorcycle is ridden' – huge numbers of us. Well, the important thing to remember is you learned to do it that way (remember how you became able to ride for longer and longer periods?): You can learn something else.

The largest, developed, muscle memory is the angle between torso and thighs. This is controlled by the largest muscles involved in riding. We set that pattern, not an 'exactness' very early in American life by our caregivers Sitting Us in Chairs. Note that Southeast Asian peoples go about teaching their kids to squat, and that brings on an entirely different tight/torso relationship. In fact, that posture is much more common across all of Asia. People sitting on tatami’s, with feet and legs folded beneath their butt and thus, torsos leaned forward…

Anyway, some things can be difficult to overcome for some folks, when they have become habits rather than cognizant, controlled responses. A great example is about leaning motorcycles in corners. The human develops a sense of danger when leaning any farther than they can do so when standing up. Huge danger signals are sent when lean angle extends much beyond the angle the neck can be bent and still keep the eyes level (20 to 30 degrees). It's our response to body signals I'm referring to that can make up our 'sense' of our comfort levels. Those things can change --- when we control them rather than the other way round.

The K1200RS calls for, was designed to promote a canted forward riding position. Yes, very much, this was done on purpose by BMW. They knew it was required to get the K1200RS performing to the desired levels. And, very much, keep the rider comfortable for long periods of time, in the regimes where the bike was intended to be most often used (not on city streets). It all starts with a low seating position, not high, like a Sport Bike.

BMW then set out to discover, 'what else' needed to be done to:

  • Add comfort to this position = provide a supporting airflow;
  • Support the position = move the pegs downward, but still allow good clearance when cornering to sport touring levels;
  • Reduce effort to maintain the position = move them forward to change the 'Support Vector'.
This removed the need to place any weight on the handlebars. Do so if you wish, but you'll pay the price in comfort. And you'll find that you’ll make the bike feel dull and unresponsive, when compared to properly distributing your weight about the bike. 'Properly' is appropriate here in light of gaining the Performance Qualities BMW built into the bike. And, this should give some insight into why Motorcycle Magazines can't seem to find the riding qualities we owners do, when they test ride the K1200RS: They are riding it wrong, differently than it was designed to be ridden.

The keynotes to the Riding Position are:

  • Bend at the HIPS, not waist.
  • Maintain a SLIGHT arch to the back, not allowing it ever to 'curve'.
  • Move the butt AFT so the weight is OVER YOUR FEET.
  • Apply pressure to the feet, using the THIGH muscles, so you are sitting 'lightly'.
  • ELBOWS BENT, now DROP the hands to the bars.
One needs to move fore and aft on the seat to make all those things happen. Except for the Hip Bend, they are not absolutes, but rather ranges. Move about until you can see all of them are happening to some extent, and no weight is being placed on the handlebars. Do this when the bike is stationary. Sit on the stopped bike. Take time to do this. Practice. Learn.

In fact, one must teach their own body. This is called training. You'll notice all good training is done by abstract exercises, not 'just running off to the playing field and doing what you heard'.

Learn to press down with the feet. Then, when riding, check that's what you are actually doing. You should be able to lift your butt off the seat at a second’s notice: As when knowingly approaching a severe bump in the road.

Learn to bend at the hips. Do it both ways, and show yourself that you can operate the body differently. Be willing to touch that gas tank. Who said you shouldn't touch the gas tank? (Afraid of scratches?) Better to think, "The gas tank is my friend." It will be some day when you are six hundred miles into your ride and still two hundred miles from your destination. Or, while you are learning to ride this bike and may be only an hour or so into your ride. Your body is not yet... trained to operate that way.

Flop your elbows. Prove you have your weight supported, mostly by your feet, and by your butt. Do it while riding too. Even after 25,000 miles on an RS I still end up leaning onto the bars somewhat and need to readjust my position.

Many people will need to change the riding position they use for riding on the K1200RS. Understand one operates their body to do virtually anything (except things like sleep). Because Sit Up is so common in our lives, it can come to seem we are not operating the body, even to just sit. But, sit on a wooden stool for six hours and send me your impressions of what you encounter. All of it is something called ‘work’

On bikes like the K1200RS (Aprilia Falco and ZZ-R1200 come to mind) a moderate riding position is called for, but one that is still a change for some folks. What one must do is first is change one's mind. Then, go about changing one's use of one's body. Mind Controls Body (in healthy people).

Do it right. Take the time to sit on the stationary bike every day when you first get it (or go do a test ride). Flex, tighten, relax, and move about across a small but definite range of positions on the bike. Then, 'get it right' and without moving, flex all your body muscles, in order, from the feet toward the hands and head. Feel what that feels like when you relax each muscle, and are still holding the proper riding position. Close your eyes and feel it. Not all the muscles are fully relaxed. You are using some of them. How? How much? To do what?

Now, in your ride, attempt to maintain that position (with appropriate changes to handle riding circumstances) for as long in your ride as you can. When you tire, stop. Get off the bike and bend, stretch, and flex all your muscles. Walk until your walking feels normal. Then get back on the bike in the Proper Position That You Checked Before Riding Off, and repeat. You'll find you ride longer and longer, and comfort grows and grows. Eventually, it will seem normal.

One note is that if you notice 'being tense', either some 'bulk of muscles is being tight', or that you have 'a pain' or 'a tight cord' or some other sharp discomfort, do stop. You are compensating for something that has already become tired. You should have stopped sooner, and you need to develop that muscle that you tired out. Right then, it will be hard to find that muscle, so next time you start riding, do a better job before riding off of finding what muscles you really need to use to hold that position. Then ride in perhaps a less intense environment so you can pay attention to shifts in your muscles use, and particularly, Elbow Flopping, Butt Lifting, and Neck Twisting. I promise, if you are doing this correctly, pains should disappear, and not be present. But note, that even Master Yoda gets tired, his muscles get tired during a 14-hour riding day... and sometimes a six-hour riding day.

Use your thigh muscles, they tire less and less quickly. Place your body’s weight so they can be doing the work. Even with bad knees and a bad back, I can ride this lovely performing machine from sunset to long past sunrise. And, many guys can ride longer than I do.

Blessings to you all.

Dick Frantz

I can guess that if the FRONT of your thighs hurt, you were not 'doing the right thing'.

In "The Master Yoda Riding Position", if the legs are being used properly, the muscle area MOST used is much higher, near the leg/hip joint, and along the outside of the thigh.

Think about -- actually DO -- half or full squats. If you 'roll up on your toes', the muscle area at the front of the thigh is used raise or hold the body. If done HEELS DOWN, always in contact with the floor/ground, an entirely different set of muscles comes into play. In our normal riding position for highway riding, we place the front of our boot heels against the back of the foot pegs. With feet a little flatter (parallel to the ground) 'heel down' Leg Presses become natural. Point the toes downward and the muscle groups for 'toe stands' come into play.

Perhaps the whole point of going into detail about the position as I did in the article IS TO BRING INTO PLAY THE LARGEST AND STRONGEST LEG MUSCLES SO AS TO DIMINISH AND WARD OFF FATIGUE.

That is not to say we won't be able to get stronger -- and more comfortable -- as we TRAIN OUR BODIES, but rather that we get a head start on achieving comfort, AND faster progress toward achieving it -- if we use the proper muscle groups.

The article referenced, full of word though it is, is in fact the SHORT version. 'The Position' was developed, specifically for Riding, in concert with TOP professionals from several 'body arts' disciplines, who helped refine what to do, how to learn how to do it, how to train to do it, and even how to express it. Even the short version is intended to get the reader to think about, and investigate what and how their body might work at this game. The specific 'drills' bring to the fore the very different manner of using the body, taking us away from 'habits' which might be approprite to some other actions more common to our lives, that will automatically lead to discomfort when Riding.

If there were a subtle way to express this one point about 'where my thighs hurt', I think it would be: Toes down - Speed; Heels down - Power or Strength. The quadriceps (front of thigh) is for quick, short duration work. Those other muscles are for power and endurance.

Best wishes

Dick Frantz
 
I recently finished an 8k mile trip with average travel days at 600 miles. What was my trick? Physical conditioning? (no) Bike mods? (no)

Every other day, get a first class massage and hot tub with a PYT.

Ok, I give... What is PYT?

 
I recently finished an 8k mile trip with average travel days at 600 miles. What was my trick? Physical conditioning? (no) Bike mods? (no)

Every other day, get a first class massage and hot tub with a PYT.

Ok, I give... What is PYT?
It is 5 years old, whatever it is...

edit - FWIW, the original Dick Franz post from 2002 appears to alive and well here: BMWSportTouring.com thread

 
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I recently finished an 8k mile trip with average travel days at 600 miles. What was my trick? Physical conditioning? (no) Bike mods? (no)

Every other day, get a first class massage and hot tub with a PYT.

Ok, I give... What is PYT?
It is 5 years old, whatever it is...

edit - FWIW, the original Dick Franz post from 2002 appears to alive and well here: BMWSportTouring.com thread
pyt = pretty young thing... she better be older then 5 ;)

 
edit - FWIW, the original Dick Franz post from 2002 appears to alive and well here: BMWSportTouring.com thread
If I could have updated the first post in this theread so the link worked I would. Problem is, this thread gets top search on this topic using "site:fjrforum.com" and the links are a dead end.

Otherwise...sorry for the Zombie Revival.

 
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I did not see much discussion on two up riding but there was a pic on page 6https://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/show.../0/fpart/6/vc/1Enjoy the pic 6mmbr.
Page not found :(
That is nearly ten years ago. The internet isn't fixed in concrete.

A ten second Google search brought up this page, with a picture down the page a bit. You're welcome.

 
DaBear posted: Page not found
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From my "welcome new member" response ... click here.

<edit 5 mins later> As I've said elsewhere on this Forum, the position is very similar to how I was taught to play defensive basketball: bend at the hips and knees, feet shoulder width apart, arms relaxed but stretched out to block low-level passes. Back straight, weight on the balls of your feet for quick reactions. Head up, looking around to see how the "players" are moving.

 
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I don't find MYRP to be a substitute for good ergonomics, but it can help you deal with bad ergonomics longer. MYRP is at the opposite end of the spectrum from the many riders we see that relax and slump while on the bike. At the least, slouching adversely affects the ability to maneuver the bike. At the worst, it can jack your back up. I met up with my brother a while back. He on his Kawasaki Mean Streak with forward controls. He commended how straight my back was and how it reminded him not to slouch, because when he slouched on that bike it made his back hurt. I said hell, looking at the riding position on that bike makes my back hurt....

Hud- how long did a peach basket last back when you played?

 
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Peach baskets were removed in June to harvest peaches. Basketball was delayed until Labor Day. Smartass.

Hope you find a treatment for the "bitchy when not riding" syndrome. I suffer from that, too.

 
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Dr. Naismith ("Big Jim" to his closest buddies) was a fine man. You do know he was Canadian, right? (<--- not kidding)

 
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