Modify ES settings?

[MCRIDER007]

The problem with that chart is that it doesn't really tell you anything about the relative damping change from soft to hard (is the difference 10% or 100%), it only shows a relative overlap between the various preload settings.....but the graphs are too neat and don't reflect the big change in preload between solo and luggage to 2-up. I would think the engineers who designed the system would assume a 20-30 lb weight increase when luggage is added but 125-150 lb increase for a passenger and the damping changes should reflect those weight changes.

Actually, there is some indication of that in that the difference between the 1up+bags to 2up damping ranges, the damping shifts more than in the other 2 steps. I don't think the graph is supposed to indicate anything about the spring preload differences.

You're right, there is a small increase in the amount of damping shift going from solo plus luggage to 2-up but not nearly as much as I would expect since the change in preload is twice as much as the change from just adding luggage (4mm vs 2mm).

 

[MCRIDER007]

As it is, I'm in "one-rider with bags" preload and "Hard +3" all the time (wishing it could get firmer).

I normally have the preload at solo with bags and the damping settings at Soft-1, Normal+0, and Hard+3. I can feel a very slight difference between soft and normal but have never felt any difference between normal and hard. One of my friends, who is a long time track instructor, did a lot of testing on my bike and said the only difference he could feel between normal and hard was that the fork dive seemed to be slightly slower under very heavy braking in the hard setting. The ride and handling seemed to be the same.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

The more I learn from you gentlemen, it still sounds to me as though the OP needs to try setting his preload higher. Why can't he just try it and tell us what he finds? I find (and I already said) that the bike rides stiffer/firmer with the preload bumped up.

Fred and MCRIDER007, thanks for your wisdom. Again. Glad you contributed.

 

[Fred W]

The problem with that chart is that it doesn't really tell you anything about the relative damping change from soft to hard (is the difference 10% or 100%), it only shows a relative overlap between the various preload settings.....but the graphs are too neat and don't reflect the big change in preload between solo and luggage to 2-up. I would think the engineers who designed the system would assume a 20-30 lb weight increase when luggage is added but 125-150 lb increase for a passenger and the damping changes should reflect those weight changes.

Actually, there is some indication of that in that the difference between the 1up+bags to 2up damping ranges, the damping shifts more than in the other 2 steps. I don't think the graph is supposed to indicate anything about the spring preload differences.

You're right, there is a small increase in the amount of damping shift going from solo plus luggage to 2-up but not nearly as much as I would expect since the change in preload is twice as much as the change from just adding luggage (4mm vs 2mm).

Wait, where did you see the preload values of 2mm 4mm, etc? I've never seen any of that.

 

[MCRIDER007]

The problem with that chart is that it doesn't really tell you anything about the relative damping change from soft to hard (is the difference 10% or 100%), it only shows a relative overlap between the various preload settings.....but the graphs are too neat and don't reflect the big change in preload between solo and luggage to 2-up. I would think the engineers who designed the system would assume a 20-30 lb weight increase when luggage is added but 125-150 lb increase for a passenger and the damping changes should reflect those weight changes.

Actually, there is some indication of that in that the difference between the 1up+bags to 2up damping ranges, the damping shifts more than in the other 2 steps. I don't think the graph is supposed to indicate anything about the spring preload differences.

You're right, there is a small increase in the amount of damping shift going from solo plus luggage to 2-up but not nearly as much as I would expect since the change in preload is twice as much as the change from just adding luggage (4mm vs 2mm).

Wait, where did you see the preload values of 2mm 4mm, etc? I've never seen any of that.

I think I originally read it in Motorcyclist (bumps of 2mm, 4mm, and 2mm from solo). You can also visibly observe the changes at the top of the shock....kind of hard to measure accurately when the shock is mounted but those numbers looked to be accurate.

 

[DocFJR]

The more I learn from you gentlemen, it still sounds to me as though the OP needs to try setting his preload higher. Why can't he just try it and tell us what he finds?

I raised the preload as suggested (to two up), but it's hard to tell if the difference I feel is due to firmer dampening or simply the greater rear preload. My initial impressions were from driving in NC, but I'm back in here in Flatlandia. A real comparison test will have to wait until I can get off this pool table again.

 

[MCRIDER007]

The more I learn from you gentlemen, it still sounds to me as though the OP needs to try setting his preload higher. Why can't he just try it and tell us what he finds?

I raised the preload as suggested (to two up), but it's hard to tell if the difference I feel is due to firmer dampening or simply the greater rear preload. My initial impressions were from driving in NC, but I'm back in here in Flatlandia. A real comparison test will have to wait until I can get off this pool table again.

When you increase the preload you also increase the force (weight) it takes to initially compress the spring so when you are bouncing up and down on the seat in your garage the increased resistance you feel is a direct result of the increased preload. However, that increased resistance is an illusion that disappears once all the riders weight is settled on the seat and the bike is moving down the road. Once moving and traveling over bumps, the addition resistance/ firmness is the result of increased damping.

 

[DocFJR]

Below is a graphic display of their relationships.

Thanks, Fred, you make a good point about the overlap indicated by the graphic. If it's a reasonably accurate representation of an intentionally designed overlap, there seems to be two dampening settings shared between any single preload's "soft," "std," and "hard" presets. Also, the graph seems to indicate that each preload preset above "one rider" adds three additional firmer settings of dampening not available to the lesser preload. If all the above were true, and the graph isn't just a Yamaha ad designer's "guess," we'd have a total of 26 unique dampening settings among the four preload presets, with 17 available to any one preload preset. Of course, without getting inside the programming, one can't make assumptions about relative space between settings, but the ordinal levels are so close together, it really doesn't matter much. Since purchase, I've been constantly riding in the "one rider with bags" preload at the "hard +3" dampening level, since I really like feeling every pebble and pavement ripple. Even at this maximum dampening setting, however, I still felt I wanted it firmer. Based on Fred's information, I'm trying the "two-up with bags" maximum preload at the "hard +3" dampening, and it certainly feels more like I wanted. The greater preload gives higher ground clearance, but I can still flat-foot at a stop, so I'm good to go! I wish the suspension settings were capable of a setting that's too-firm, so I had some extra range when things get more interesting, but maybe one of you in a curvy state could see how it does at the edge.

 

[Fred W]

Another way that we, as owners, might be able to determine what's actually happening would be to design an experiment where we directly observe the action of the damping stepper motors as they go through their changes. First time that I need to service the forks I will plan on doing something like that, if nobody else has already.

The other thing I'm wondering is if there is a way to mechanically add in some damping before mounting the stepper motors at their zero (least) home position. Kind of a damping pre-load, if you will. That should shift the entire damping scale across the board. The idea that this is possible would also suggest that the motors may not all be installed with the damping exactly the same, which might explain some of the differences in opinion about their effect between different owners.

The amount of information available regarding the ES suspension (at either end) in the Factory Service Manual is disappointingly slim.

 

[DocFJR]

The other thing I'm wondering is if there is a way to mechanically add in some damping before mounting the stepper motors at their zero (least) home position. Kind of a damping pre-load, if you will. That should shift the entire damping scale across the board.

That would be seriously cool. I'd love to move the existing top of the dampening range towards the middle on my ES. Perhaps you're correct concerning variations between bikes, which might explain my experiences.

 

[MCRIDER007]

The other thing I'm wondering is if there is a way to mechanically add in some damping before mounting the stepper motors at their zero (least) home position. Kind of a damping pre-load, if you will. That should shift the entire damping scale across the board.

That would be seriously cool. I'd love to move the existing top of the dampening range towards the middle on my ES. Perhaps you're correct concerning variations between bikes, which might explain my experiences.

I would guess that the ES damping adjustments work through a stepper motor pushing a rod that pushes a tapered needle that partially blocks a oil hole and restricts oil flow. Changing the damping curves would probably require some very small adjustments in the stepper motor position and it would take some trial and error to shift the damping curves to the desired point. It seems it would be a lot easier (and more precise) to simply change the viscosity of the oil to shift the damping curves...the downside would be that you would have to have a pretty good idea of the oil viscosity you were changing.

 

[RaYzerman19]

Jeez, the ES comments or the last couple of months just makes me fell better about getting the A. I'm sure all the ES adjustability is awesome and useful, but....... most of these ES things just make it all-in-one, and impair your ability to adjust things individually. BMW ESA was similar. I would rather be able to tweak, as some seem to be now thinking. The first issue for me was the reduction of rear spring rate, taking the ES back to the days when we all complained the Gen1 & 2 springs were inadequate..... why, 'cuz soft is better? Initially, that would seem a target for upgrade to something more suitable to your weight if you are say, above ~180 lbs? At a tech day a year or so ago, we took some ES sag measurements at various preload settings, but there wasn't enough data to draw firm conclusions, except to say we thought the fork springs were adequate for most.

But, also trying to understand Fred's comments, are we saying there should be more damping with the current spring rate? If so, then perhaps upping the spring rate will make that situation worse, as you will now select a lower preload, which if I understand it correctly, gets you a set of lower damping settings.

If you think in terms of how the prior Gen's forks worked (the shocks sucked), i.e., how far and how often did you really change up the damping and by how much... maybe two clicks harder for average riding vs twisties? Just saying, how much is the ES really changing the damping and what is the total range from softest-mid-hardest from rebound valve fully closed (the old how many clicks out from closed). It will be a challenge to determine that, but I'm not sure what the next step would be. I don't have an ES FSM to see what controls what (actuating rods in the cartridges?), and the parts diagrams aren't very helpful.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

Well my ES is awesome. I could not ask for more happiness from my suspension. When I scroll through the menu and make adjustments the light and music intro they play before every question on "Who wants to be a Millionaire?" happens, no matter where I am. There is a trampoline race between a Hooters waitress and a Twin Peaks waitress to see who gets to clean my face shield on my helmet. The Angels weep.

The "A" model has a softer, more comfy ride but the ES is just wonderful. And, the inverted, blacked out forks look fantastic.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Holy ****...I'm goin' ridin' with RFH!

 

[DocFJR]

Without reservation, I'd buy my 2014 ES again. I love it. But what FJR owner doesn't want more?

 

[Fred W]

Exactly this ^^^

To put this into the proper perspective for Rayray: My 1st Gen FJR's suspension was/is totally dialed in. I have a stiffer (1.1 kg/mm) set of fork springs along with the GP Suspensions damping valve upgrades installed up front, and a Penske dual adjustable shock with proper 850 lb/in rear spring in the rear. My 2014 ES's suspension is much, much better than that, even if I never adjusted it away from 1 up w/ bags and normal - 0 damping.

But I can adjust, and so I do.

It is so awesome to be able to go to 1 up super soft -3 when the road turns to ****, which, as a guy who has ridden in New England a fair amount, you know is fairly common around here. It's almost as comfy riding on those bumpy back roads on the ES as it is on my long, travel, soft Vstrom's suspension. Also, with the lower ride height you get some added straight line stability for highway cruising.

But when the going gets smooth and sporty, a couple of button pushes and I can increase the preload to change the rear ride height, quicken the steering angles, and increase the damping as is appropriate for corner strafing.

Then before Mrs W gets on the back, I can press a couple of buttons and go to 2-up or 2-up plus bags and not sacrifice a thing. That was not possible on the 1st Gen w/ aftermarket. Yes, I could have grovelled on the ground and increased the preload, then diddled the clickers to get the damping right for the ride, but that was way too much of a hassle. So instead you either set the suspension up for 1-up perfection and live with a too soft setup when 2-up, or you set it for 2-up competence and liove with an overly stiff 1-up scenario.

I, like every other owner I know who has opted for the ES suspension, have absolutely zero regrets. That said, I'm still the same curious guy I have always been and would like to know what is going on behind the ES curtain. And it would be fun to figure out if there is a way to customize the suspension damping beyond the range that is provided in stock form.

I'm just not the kind of guy that can buy a motorcycle and just ride the thing in its original stock form. That entire concept is something I'll never be able to get my head around.

PS - Nobody is exactly sure what the spring rates are in the ES. The FSM specs seems pretty far whacked out from reality.

 

[hppants]

Playing with different viscosity oils seems logical to me, with the understanding that you are not increasing the span of adjustment, you are just shifting it one way or the other. If less dampening is required, and thinner oil is not available, perhaps drilling the pilot hole a bit larger would make an irreversible difference.

If circumstances allow, placing a washer, shim, or spacer between the stepper motor and the dampening rod could also do the same thing, but my feeling is that the stepper motor would bottom out before it reaches full extension. You might be able to increase the volume of oil a bit or lengthen the spring spacer to give you a little more pre-load too?

I wonder what the aftermarket is thinking on the fork? For the shock, it seems pretty easy to change the spring rate, adjust the nitrogen charge (or make that adjustable through some sort of accumulator), etc. For the fork, perhaps to justify the price, they are going to re-configure the entire guts to include the entire dampening assembly and stepper motors. I would thing they need to measure the voltages at the stepper motor for each setting and then somehow correlate that to the longer throw motor? Perhaps incorporate an amplifier or some other type of gain device in line with the ECU and the stepper motor to allow more range?

Has anyone seen any aftermarket ES upgrades yet?

 

[Fred W]

The problem with changing suspension oil viscosity is that it affects both the high and low speed damping and the compression and rebound equally. If we were to fiddle with the stepper motors one of the goals would be that you could increase the compression damping relative to the rebound if that is what you wanted to do since the functions each have their own motor.

Not sure if this is true for this application, but typically stepper motors are an open loop adjustment mechanism, and there is no feedback or sensor to confirm the movement. That is, the controller only send out X number of steps (square waves) to the motor and assumes that it has moved the commanded amount. This idea is supported by the fact that the only errors that the SCU (Suspension Control Unit) has for the 3 damping adjustemnt stepper motors is electrical open or short circuit error (fault code 93).

The rear shock preload adjusting motor does have a rotary encoder to monitor the mechanism's position, and will generate positional errors (error code 94)

 

[RaYzerman19]

First, the intent here is not to argue whether ES is better than A, nor is it a debate to justify my particular choice not to go with ES. Those are larger/similar/different subjects with their own reasoning. Neither choice is bad, nor in my opinon necessarily better, as each has their benefits and limitations. Doesn't mean I won't tease you about it. Many with good aftermarket suspensions will also have a view. But, some reference to A is inevitable I think. Let's also just say, the A offers individual adjustments on the forks, and similar adjustment of rebound (and somewhat compression) damping as the ES shock. ES has more preloads available than the stock Hard/Soft choice for A. The A has a stiffer rear shock spring. The stock A was never perfect, but I think we're finally seeing enough user comments to say the ES isn't either, or at least it didn't quite live up to the hype (except for all the adjustability factor, which is awesome). For this discussion, I'm just trying to put myself in your shoes and understand what improvements should/can/cannot be made.

Don't worry, Fred, I completely get the ability to adjust at will and on the fly is the most attractive feature of ES, and I know the frost heaves over your way would jar the false teeth out of an elephant. BTDT. I also (I think) understand that for most who weigh under 200 and have a lighter slimmer pillion will mostly have an decent suspension. Great stuff. But from various comments I've seen, the actual shock beneath the adjustability could be better, and the OP in this case wants better. Single riders dialing it up to two up settings for twisties seems a little wrong to me. And what about those two uppers who will be combined 300+ lbs........ all we can do is judge what general suspension design discussions we had in the past, and what mods or aftermarket choices worked.

With all that in mind, ES took away the ability to put a numerical value on any setting that can be related to traditional non-ES, i.e., number of clicks of damping, number of rings of preload (actually no preload adjustment on the forks), some kind of number associated with shock preload, perhaps inability to move damping firmer than the current categories without moving the preload as we're finding out. If we had better numbers, it might be easier to understand or relate it to what we know about suspensions. On an A, you can adjust fork preload and damping individually and independently, the GenIII rear shock is better than prior and maybe can be ridden on the soft setting (I will try it on the root beer bike for a while). And most likely the guys who prefer the better suspensions will want aftermarket.

I also think the majority don't care all that much, as they're happy just to go riding and mostly aren't limit pushers in the suspension department. Maybe only want better when loaded up with luggage and pillion and finding the ride is too harsh...... so for all those, ES will be great. In Redfish Hunter's case, awesome, and if you notice in some of his pictures, he's actually starting to crack a smile now and then. Back to the OP's questions.........

I'll throw this out there..... in the rear shock department, the ability to tweak damping outside of the OEM menu is going to be difficult if not impossible to do easily. One could get a different spring to change up the preload range. Aftermarket suspension manufacturers may dive in if the demand is there. Aftermarket ES suspensions exist. In the fork department, you can change springs and/or shim them via trial and error to achieve a different preload and/or use straight rate springs. Damping would be easier changed by different fork oil, and if rebound is still controlled the same way as previous, one could use a longer rod in the cartridge. I don't know how compression is controlled, but may be similar. I'm just curious and I'll try to help.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

We all like what we like. We all tend to defend our decisions as the best decision. Nothing wrong with that. Whether it is an A model or and ES model, they are both wonderful motorcycles. I have no wish to seriously belittle anyone for their bike choice. I will happily, jokingly make fun of all parties involved including myself.

I find the ES to be wonderful and I do push mine pretty hard. I find the extra lean angle to be helpful when I am following a faster rider. I have zero complaints and zero regrets over my decision to pay the extra money for the ES. When it comes time to repair/rebuild/replace... I may be whining and crying.

With regards to how the suspension relates to happiness...



An "A" model owner. He is just proud his POS A model made it that far.



Myself, an ES owner. See how happy I am?



As you can see, spending more money buys more happiness.