Motorcycles top list of military's non-war worries

[Constant Mesh]

https://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...70458/1001/NEWS

"It has reached the point where motorcycle riding has become the No. 1 noncombat safety concern across the services, said Addison Davis IV, deputy assistant secretary of the army."

 

[uctofeej]

Not surprising. But at the same time, the article omits the fact that the military is the ONLY organization that requires MSF training for all riders just to get a bike on base. It would probably be much worse otherwise.

 

[user 2024]

Not surprising. But at the same time, the article omits the fact that the military is the ONLY organization that requires MSF training for all riders just to get a bike on base. It would probably be much worse otherwise.

I get the preliminary loss report (PLR) for every death in the Army and the MSF training (not knocking it) doesn't help the majority of these. The deaths are what they have been since 1976 when I went in the Corp. Young, bumb, and full of x$%. The problem is you don't know how many are prevented by MSF course. I look at what most of DOD requires as harrassment. They can't tell you MC are prohibited, but they make it as painful/difficult as they can. Just ask anyone that rides on post what they have to wear and accomplish to do this. Each post in the Army has some different/additional rules than DOD.

How about DOD educate cagers if they are really serious.

 

[uctofeej]

Not surprising. But at the same time, the article omits the fact that the military is the ONLY organization that requires MSF training for all riders just to get a bike on base. It would probably be much worse otherwise.

I get the preliminary loss report (PLR) for every death in the Army and the MSF training (not knocking it) doesn't help the majority of these. The deaths are what they have been since 1976 when I went in the Corp. Young, bumb, and full of x$%. The problem is you don't know how many are prevented by MSF course. I look at what most of DOD requires as harrassment. They can't tell you MC are prohibited, but they make it as painful/difficult as they can. Just ask anyone that rides on post what they have to wear and accomplish to do this. Each post in the Army has some different/additional rules than DOD.

I took the training while in the Corps and I know it saved me from a left-turner the night after I finished it. My close-call was so close that my right foot and peg scraped his rear bumper as I did the ol' swerve and brake. That always led me to believe that if someone actually applies what they learn -- never a given -- they stood a good chance of preventing accidents. But I can certainly see where they might just be getting their certificate and forgetting everything else.

I also wonder how the number of military motorcycle accidents stacks up against college bike accidents. Maybe that would be a better way to determine whether MSF training does any good.

How about DOD educate cagers if they are really serious.

In a perfect world... sigh.

 

[radman]

If MSF is required, and is such a great endeavor, then why do riders still crash? I believe that despite programs like MSF, the accident/death rate is still going to be determined by individual skill, circumstance, and above all, pure and simple luck. Some morons will ride into their old age drunk and oblivious, while MSF Stich wearing rule followers will get whacked early on. I fully believe, and always have, it's ultimately the riders skill that determines lifespan. Some people should never get involved with 2 wheelers, no matter how much training they get, while some who have the natural ability to kick all our ***** never even consider getting a bike.

 

[FZ/FJR Mike]

I'm sure all the base commanders will now have their MP's ticketing almost every rider on base. When I was in the Army Reserve, our summer camps were @ Fort Lost in the Woods(Ft. Leonard Wood). I was stopped several times for being 1 MPH over speed limitout with a radar gun. When I asked how the MP could so accurately gauge my speed, I was almost arrested on the spot. Rider training & safety vests were mandatory back then & I can't imagine how much more draconian things are now. We train these young folks to be aggressive warriors & then expect them to ride safely. May be a contradiction. Sure wish I had something positive to contribute to keep them safe/alive.

 

[DaveT]

If MSF is required, and is such a great endeavor, then why do riders still crash?

MSF is just training -- you've got to have the experience on top of that, and most of these folks are young and don't have this experience. They also have lots of Testosterone! Been there...done that...fortunately did not get killed!

 

[BuilderBob]

No duh.

My son had an accident back in December. Non fatal, but his injuries kept him from being deployed (silver lining). As a result, he will spend his entire 4-year enlistment in San Diego on shore duty (poor guy).

Additionally, now fully healed, he'll spend his remaining time riding the twisties on his new 848! Some guys have all the luck.

 

[MotownJJG]

My son just got assigned to 29 palms & can't wait to take the MSF course so he can have is CBR600RR on the base with him. Of course, then he tells me how the pool tables in the rec room are both broken, the fooseball table is broken, the sofas are broken, and then some guys wanted to see whether they could throw billiard balls through sheetrock or not. Needless to say they succeeded and then removed the baseboards in order to retrieve the billiard balls from the wall.

His explanation : "They're marines. They were bored...." I guess the same can go for motorcycle riding in the military?????/

 

[radman]

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for the fact that the enlisted ranks-the meat of the services-are generally, young, tough, and bulletproof. This is what is drilled into you, the services depend on youth's tendency to believe this, as a result it's not very reasonable to then try to convince them they're only super-men when on a mission. I'm not saying this is a bad thing-there is a reason old men send young men to war-but it doesn't bode well for convincing them to take it easy on the new Boose.

 

[Checkswrecks]

If MSF is required, and is such a great endeavor, then why do riders still crash? I believe that despite programs like MSF, the accident/death rate is still going to be determined by individual skill, circumstance, and above all, pure and simple luck. Some morons will ride into their old age drunk and oblivious, while MSF Stich wearing rule followers will get whacked early on. I fully believe, and always have, it's ultimately the riders skill that determines lifespan. Some people should never get involved with 2 wheelers, no matter how much training they get, while some who have the natural ability to kick all our ***** never even consider getting a bike.

I definitely agree that some people shouldn't touch airplanes or motorcycles. I got my high school best friend into flying and he's nearly killed me twice since. (No, I don't fly with him any more!) My wife has hit all four sides of her minivan on something in our garage. More than once.

Sorta +1 on the rest, but I have to add self-discipline to it. I just see too many kids at the start of the summer buying 600 repli-racers and by mid/late summer, they've slowed down and talk about friends who got hurt/killed or they are those friends. Get to really talking to them and they talk about how hard it is not to twist their right wrist.

As for the rest of us who survive for longer periods, sure, luck has some to do with it (blowing a rear tire), but I think the absolute biggest piece of the skill-set is learning to constantly read all the traffic around you and not sit complacent where some idiot can come into your lane and say "I didn't see him."

 

[Scythian]

I look at what most of DOD requires as harrassment. They can't tell you MC are prohibited, but they make it as painful/difficult as they can. Just ask anyone that rides on post what they have to wear and accomplish to do this. Each post in the Army has some different/additional rules than DOD.

Exactly. Thank you for saying that. I think there is some kind of covert "deglamorize motorcycling" program on the posts and bases.

Everytime some ******* comes home from the sandbox, buys the newest two-wheeled rocket, gets liquored-up and hits a guardrail, I gotta wear more safety ********, take more courses and get more ******-with trying to get a bike on base!

Now, to get on base, I gotta wear "a contrasting, brightly colored upper garment" with "144 sq in of reflective material". The local base commander has modified that so that "144 sq in of reflective material is visible from the rear" so a reflective belt doesn't cut it; I gotta wear a paperboy vest (which, don't kid yourself, does nothing for safety, but it does make me look and feel like a total choad). You also have to have your MSF training card on your person that the Security Police can inspect when they make "spot checks".

Futhermore, just to get on base, after showing my ID, I gotta remove my helmet and sunglasses so that they can compare me to my ID. That is a pain in the ass parked in the entrance lane to a base at rush hour.

With gas prices towards $4 a gallon, some nitwit ******* Major in charge of Base Safety is going to decided they need to crack down even more on motorcycles to prevent more servicemembers from riding them....

But the thing that really ******* kills me is that by making all of us ********* wear vests everywhere; if you were a terrorist, or meant us harm, you can instantly pick out the guys who work on base by the stupid vests! Nice OPSEC there, nitwits....

 

[user 2024]

I look at what most of DOD requires as harrassment. They can't tell you MC are prohibited, but they make it as painful/difficult as they can. Just ask anyone that rides on post what they have to wear and accomplish to do this. Each post in the Army has some different/additional rules than DOD.

Exactly. Thank you for saying that. I think there is some kind of covert "deglamorize motorcycling" program on the posts and bases.

Everytime some ******* comes home from the sandbox, buys the newest two-wheeled rocket, gets liquored-up and hits a guardrail, I gotta wear more safety ********, take more courses and get more ******-with trying to get a bike on base!

Now, to get on base, I gotta wear "a contrasting, brightly colored upper garment" with "144 sq in of reflective material". The local base commander has modified that so that "144 sq in of reflective material is visible from the rear" so a reflective belt doesn't cut it; I gotta wear a paperboy vest (which, don't kid yourself, does nothing for safety, but it does make me look and feel like a total choad). You also have to have your MSF training card on your person that the Security Police can inspect when they make "spot checks".

Futhermore, just to get on base, after showing my ID, I gotta remove my helmet and sunglasses so that they can compare me to my ID. That is a pain in the ass parked in the entrance lane to a base at rush hour.

With gas prices towards $4 a gallon, some nitwit ******* Major in charge of Base Safety is going to decided they need to crack down even more on motorcycles to prevent more servicemembers from riding them....

But the thing that really ******* kills me is that by making all of us ********* wear vests everywhere; if you were a terrorist, or meant us harm, you can instantly pick out the guys who work on base by the stupid vests! Nice OPSEC there, nitwits....

That is what I was talking about. Before I retired I had to visit many Army Bases and I would always ride if possible. I had to call first and talk to the MPs to make sure what I had to have/wear to get on their post. Think about this. a reflective belt/vest has to be worn during the day for Ft Rucker. How do you see this if the guy rides a Wing? But this is the Army way, one person ***** up, punish everyone else. :angry:

 

[JimLor]

Well, let me give you a different perspective. DoN (Navy and Marine Corps) require, and call Personal Protective Equipment - DOT approved helmet; long-sleeve shirt/pants; full-fingered gloves; boots/shoes that cover the ankle. And the reflective bullcrap - I agree that that's a BS requirement. However, my neon-yellow Olympia AST jacket qualifies during daylight.

I think the DON requirement are too weak - yeah, too weak. The 2 objectives of leadership are: 1) Accomplish the mission and 2) Take care of your Marines. We don't let Marines outside the gate in Iraq/Afg w/o 35 lbs (+) of do kiddin' PPE - yes, different scenario, but same principle. Let me tell you what qualifies as PPE for a biker - DOT approved helmet - yeah, that's shorthand for any peanut helmet you can find with a sticker; long-sleeve shirt/pants, yeah, long-sleeve t-shirt and virtually any pants qualify; the boots, if over or near your ankle you're good to go; full-fingered gloves, ok.

My point is that if we're going to require our Marines to wear PPE on bikes, then we should require them to wear no kiddin' effective PPE! Second point is that since we "take care of our Marines" we should require PPE. Yeah, I hear the moaning and whining - you can't make me wear this stuff, I'm a free-born American!! Well, if you are an active duty Marine or someone else who wants to ride a bike on base, you sure as heck can be told what to wear. And yes, I believe the most important leadership principle is "Set the example" I wear "real" PPE.

Semper Fi.

 

[Scythian]

My point is that if we're going to require our Marines to wear PPE on bikes, then we should require them to wear no kiddin' effective PPE!

You are correct.

I was wearing a full-face helmet, leather jacket, race gloves, touring overpants, combat boots and a reflective "flightline belt" getting lectured by a Gate-guard rent-a-cop why I couldn't enter the base 'cuz "flightline belts" no longer qualify, when a guy wearing a skid-lid, longsleeved t-shirt, jeans, hi-tops, gardening gloves and a paper-boy vest got waved in.

But, see, it's not about motorcycle-safety, it's about ******* with motorcyclists until enough people quit riding to cut the crash statistics down....

 

[Bustanut joker]

Ya think you can add something from here to yer list scythian?????

Good on ya fer talkin straight.

:jester:

 

[Constant Mesh]

https://www.campbell.army.mil/safety/publications.asp

If you download the "AR 385-10" publication, you can see the section concerning "Motorcycle Safety" on pages 56 and 57.

 

[Scythian]

Ya think you can add something from here to yer list scythian?????
Good on ya fer talkin straight.

:jester:

Hahahahahah! Good point:

"I was warming my bike up sitting on the centerstand this morning parked next to a tree. I noticed a high pitch squeal/screech for a fraction of a second when starting the bike.

I shifted 55 times in a minute; then the throttle got too sensitive; the seat was too hard, my grips were too hard the throttle spring was too hard and it started ticking and roasted my left leg so I put the sidestand down to take it off the centerstand. I pulled the front brake lever in until it touched the grip. The front end clunked and I stripped the oil pan while I was gently squeezing my anti-lock brakes like an orange to keep them from locking up when I realized the brakes aren't as powerful as I thought.

When I was lowering it off the centerstand, the sidestand collapsed and it landed on my metal slider which broke my frame causing my Metzeler tire to fail and both sidebags to unlock and fall off. The car swerving into my lane couldn't hear my wimpy horn and there was no grease on my spline. It was wobbling at 48.5 mph and the buzzing was making my hands numb. I couldn't hear anything 'cuz of the static in my intercom. The Gate Guard wouldn't let me on my Army base 'cuz I wasn't wearing the right paper-boy vest.

The glovebox wouldn't open and the suspension was too mushy. My cover wore the paint off the tops of my mirrors. I got yelled at by another rider on a group ride.

Picking it up, I tore my bicep, wrenched my back, both knees and got monkey butt...."

 

[Bustanut joker]

paperboy vest???? Might just catch on here.

:jester: