My take on the surging. And what I propose to do next.

[ELP_JC]

Hey gang, since we seem to be on our own, at least for a while, I want to continue to find a solution to our problem. At least a livable solution, that is, which is to tame the surging to a level that doesn't bother us anymore. Or makes the bike unsafe to ride under certain conditions.

First thing is not ALL '07 FJRs are exhibiting the problem. Or at least not with the same intensity as others. It's pretty obvious Yamaha changed the ECU programming in some way that surging is much more prevalent now than it was in '06, but there's something else that is causing the fluctuation in intensity, and I think I know what it is.

My money is in the CO settings gentlemen. And no, I'm not talking about +7, +4, or any + number, BUT INDIVIDUAL NUMBERS. Let's face it: ALL motors are using 5,18,18,21, but ALL injectors are different, and that number can reportedly be from -176 to +176, or something like that. Why I think it's that? My bike is running rich as hell, and the +7 made it surge MUCH worse, meaning I don't need more fuel, at least in some of the cylinders. I thought about putting the early '06 settings of -10,8,8,11, but that would mean leaning out all cylinders, and we all know we shouldn't mess leaning out anything without being absolutely sure ALL cylinders are running rich, which we don't know. I know at least some on my bike are, as the exhaust had an unbelievable amount of soot for 400 miles.

Here's what I propose. We need a surging '07 bike owner who preferrably lives near the mountains (for quick and easy tests) and has access to a dealer with a dyno AND a EGA (exhaust gas analyzer) machine. Only problem is that bike has to be fitted with access ports, which consist of drilling the headers and welding such a device, which has a hex bolt to access the port. This can be done where the headers bend parallel to the floor, without the need of even removing the fairings. The right 2 can get the screws about 45º to the right, and the left 2 to the left. There's no EGA machine in my town that I know of, but will call the few dealers we have and make sure of that. If I find one, I'd volunteer my bike. If somebody else is willing to do it, we can pitch in $10 or so and among all of us cover the cost of the test. That bike would be running like a swiss watch after that, and that might not relate exactly to our machines, but I want to know if having all cylinders at the same CO level (maybe 2.5 or 3%?? I'd get them on the upper EPA allowance myself) makes a difference in the surging, and how different the CO level numbers differ from the fixed ones Yamaha put on every bike. I'd almost bet cash money they'll be VERY different, meaning some cylinders are running too lean, others too rich, and others close to fine. That's why some people have success with the +7, and others, like me, don't. And the weird thing is I have the hesitation when blipping the throttle on any number. Will raise my idle to 1100 and see if that improves. Don't like to raise it more on a wet clutch machine, especially one with so little disengagement like the FJR, but that's a different subject.

My other experiment is getting a non-surging '06 ECU and get it on a surging '07. I see absolutely any risk with doing that, if we set the CO levels the same as our bikes. Bikes are identical. This would prove how much of a problem is the ECU programming alone. I can volunteer to find a willing '06 owner to lend us his ECU; ZERO risk for him, but best scenario would be to swap ECUs and go together for a ride to see what each owner feels different.

I basically want to move the speculation of what's going on with our afflicted bikes, to a process of elimination with documented tests. Maybe I'm full of $hit, so just let me know if that's the case.

I was going to wait for Yamaha to fix this, but apparently if it happens at all, it'll be a much longer wait that most of us are willing to endure. If we all pay $10 for somebody to try my dyno/EGA solution and it works, I'd gladly pay the $300 or so to fix my own machine, rather than spending it on a bandaid solution like a PCIII. But somebody has to try it. I just don't want to give up on this wonderful bike. Have a great day gentlemen.

JC

 

[ionbeam]

My money is in the CO settings gentlemen...INDIVIDUAL NUMBERS....We need a surging '07 bike owner who preferrably lives near the mountains...a dyno AND a EGA (exhaust gas analyzer) machine....bike has to be fitted with access ports

You need to do a little history research and find out what happened in '03 when Tom Barber (aka Barbarian) and Dwayne Verhey did the rivnut and 4 channel EGA check. Later we got the PCIII Wally Kilburg Smoothness map which addressed many of the rough edges of the FI mapping.

Between Gen I and Gen II there have been changes in the way the fuel pressure is managed (including pressure spikes as the injectors are opened and closed); sensor count; some sensors are now read once and latched into memory where as in the past they were dynamically read; new method of managing intake pressure since there is no longer a baro sensor; undoubtedly the spark map has had to change; these are just a few things that you will need to sort out along with the EGA results.

While the dyno will give a trend report it really doesn't indicate how the power and drive train will react on the road. Some areas you would have to specifically address are light throttle, light load, steady speed cruising; throttle transitions under different loads; response to varying baro and ambient temps under different engine loads; while looking at the altitude issue you should probably slew the baro pressure while transitioning from high to low power train loading, etc.

There is a chance that the problems with the '07 may be as simple as statically getting the FI stoichiometrically correct. The actual engine power management is a dynamic system running many different management profiles, sometimes from look-up maps and other times from dynamic readings. I suspect that if (what many owners perceive as) the problems were so simple Yamaha would have addressed it. There is also a chance that Yamaha may have decided that what many owners see as 'problems' are to them just little nuances in the way the engine performs.

I'm sure that the '07 has drivability issues and Yamaha hasn't publicly stepped up to acknowledge there are problems. I don't think there is one fix for all issues, I think it is a system control issue with software. I would guess that Yamaha has a power management agenda that includes more than just smooth engine performance and they did a poor job of balancing their objectives. It serves Yamaha no good end to produce and deliver a poorly performing vehicle to meet something like emissions that are way above and beyond what is required over the next several years.

 

[mdisher]

Laying low, waiting for Radman/Jestal to respond, I know one of them paid for matched injectors and there is a way to set yours properly if you're assuming that yours aren't correct.

ALL motors are using 5,18,18,21

This isn't entirely true, Not all 06/07 use these numbers, although there is only, 3 different sets of numbers that I recall. But certainly not ALL.

 

[radman]

Nice post Ion. I've done A LOT of experimentation with Frank, but being a Gen I bike, little if anything would apply to a Gen II bike as the systems are vastly different. Tossing the bike on a dyno and pulling gas measurements would definitely be a step in the right direction though, at least give one an idea as to what is happening on that particular bike. But, like the way the Barb mod affects different bikes different ways (the co numbers aren't as uniform as you might think, as per Ion), one would have to toss several problem plagued bikes on the dyno and test to certify commonality.

 

[ELP_JC]

Thanks for posting Alan. Nobody has said a dyno would duplicate all kinds of riding conditions, and certainly not me. But such a session would show us the 'basic' A/F ratio on each cylinder. It's obvious the computer then leans or richens A/F rations, advances or retards timing, etc. based on ever changing riding conditions. If an EGA machine wasn't of benefit, they wouldn't exist, as simple as that.

Furthermore, I don't think a stoichiometric ratio would ever meet current requirements, at least on the EPA cycle. The issue here is to have ALL CO levels THE SAME, regardless of which % level. I suggested meeting current requirements, meaning I don't care if they're below, equal, or above stoichiometric. That's irrelevant.

I also understand perfectly how the +7 came about, but that was 5 years ago. As you said, things have changed dramatically due to EPA requirements, so it's time to revisit the issue.

If you don't think connecting an EGA machine to each cylinder and adjusting each one to the same level is going to make ANY motorcycle run better (we have the means to adjust the CO levels, which is fantastic), I rest my case.

As I implied earlier, with the EPA requirements so stringent now, there's a lot less room for error (like on CO differences among cylinders) with the current mapping, so what wasn't a problem in early '06, can very well be a problem now.

I'm not looking to rewrite the whole darn ECU program, or even think the surging can be eliminated, but to make it bearable, that's all.

Finally, I started this thread to TRY to find a solution to the SEVERE SURGING, not an elimination of it, so please post any better ideas, and not just shut down mine.

Running our machine with an EGA machine is going to give us some answers gentlemen, rather than speculation. Maybe the 5,18,18,21 setting are close enough. Maybe not. Maybe getting them perfectly will diminish the surging. Maybe not. Only one way to find out, and that's what this thread is all about. Take care.

JC

 

[PA1195]

Snip...

My money is in the CO settings gentlemen. And no, I'm not talking about +7, +4, or any + number, BUT INDIVIDUAL NUMBERS. Let's face it: ALL motors are using 5,18,18,21, but ALL injectors are different, and that number can reportedly be from -176 to +176, or something like that. Why I think it's that? My bike is running rich as hell, and the +7 made it surge MUCH worse, meaning I don't need more fuel, at least in some of the cylinders. I thought about putting the early '06 settings of -10,8,8,11, but that would mean leaning out all cylinders, and we all know we shouldn't mess leaning out anything without being absolutely sure ALL cylinders are running rich, which we don't know. I know at least some on my bike are, as the exhaust had an unbelievable amount of soot for 400 miles.

Snip...

Morning JC...here's a short test you or others may want to try...go into the CO mode and select a cylinder with the engine idling...by holding either the reset or select buttons down continuously you can scan quickly up or down in value...I played with only my #1...I went from a way low minus value to way high plus value in a few seconds...what you'll see is an optimum AF ratio giving the highest RPM, as we all have seen in general with other engines...a real rough way to box-in that ratio would be to note at what + or - CO values the idle speed starts to decrease/run rough, and pick a midpoint as the best...the lean/rich settings that caused a decline was quite a bit away from the Factory set value as I recall but it did show on the tach and I could hear it...other posts from a long time ago elaborate on the estimated % of change per increment...do a search...I didn't fiddle with it much but may revisit that proceedure today for all cyls and note readings.

Also, #2 and #3 headers share a crossover port for engine torque improvement I assume, so tapping those cyls above the crossover as you suggest may yield some interesting CO values that will likely be different than the shotgun approach the Factory uses...still hope to get into a local IM facility with an EGA to run the CO at various overall +- BM settings...not sure how to handle the between-cylinder settings yet, however, w/o individual header probes as you suggest...stuff like that makes my head hurt.

Edit: I've also considered a 4-point EGT probe setup like on aircraft with a 4-way switch and either a cheap DVM, or expensive digital EGT guage, to pull the values...may be a different way to get data...some on other Forums have done something similar with Wide Band O2 probes, gear from Powercommander and other manufacurers, and a PC program to log and analyze the info (see Yamaha Roadliner/Warrior and Harley Forums and do a search).

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[ELP_JC]

I referred to '07s, and that's certainly the case so far. If you read my post carefully, I mentioned the earlier '06 numbers of: -10,8,8,11, and my reluctance to use them, since that implies leaning mixtures across the board. My point is a ton of machines are using the same darn numbers, and that's a huge assumption in the part of Yamaha IMO. That's what I want to prove or disprove with my proposed test. I'm open to any results, and go from there gentlemen.
Glad to read the other comments. And yes, the EGA test would certainly be a step in the right direction. Even though we have basically the same motor since '03, GenII bikes are like day and night different in regard to tuning, not only due to different ECU programming to meet ever more stringent emissions requirements, but we're laking a sensor now, lacking a fuel pressure regulator, and who knows what else. It's time to revisit the issue and see what replaces the regarded '+7 BM' of 5 years ago. Take care, and thanks again for pitching in.

Any volunteers? We could set up a Paypal account when we have one. Time to start doing some tests, don't you think? Later.

JC

 

[Hit the Road Jack]

ELP JC,

Just a comment to suggest that before you get too crazy regarding individual injector settings, make sure to synchronize all four throttle bodies first (if you haven't already). Otherwise, you may never get things dialed in.

 

[Orient_Express]

Two questions:

1) Will someone translate this all into English?

2) Do I need to know any of this? (Better yet if you did number 1 - WOULD I understand it?)

This fuel injection stuff is way over my head...

 

[SkooterG]

Excellent post Alan.

I especially like some the below comments:

Between Gen I and Gen II there have been changes in the way the fuel pressure is managed (including pressure spikes as the injectors are opened and closed); sensor count; some sensors are now read once and latched into memory where as in the past they were dynamically read; new method of managing intake pressure since there is no longer a baro sensor;

I'm sure that the '07 has drivability issues and Yamaha hasn't publicly stepped up to acknowledge there are problems. I don't think there is one fix for all issues, I think it is a system control issue with software. I would guess that Yamaha has a power management agenda that includes more than just smooth engine performance and they did a poor job of balancing their objectives. It serves Yamaha no good end to produce and deliver a poorly performing vehicle to meet something like emissions that are way above and beyond what is required over the next several years.

Here's my .02 worth. I don't have an 07, but from what I have been reading on the issue.............

I don't think it has anything to do with the CO settings. If that were the case your FJRs would run bad all the time. Since you experience the problems when changing altitude (atmospheric pressure), you must look at the components that deal directly with how the fuel injection responds to pressure change to determine the root cause.

I am betting it is a faulty pressure sensor, or more likely a bug in the ECU programming in how it samples readings from the pressure sensor. Sounds to me like the ECU is not updating the fuel injection map for changes in pressure (altitude, temperature). Probably, the ECU is not reading or sampling the data from the sensor like it should be doing while it's running. That is why when you stop, and cycle the ignition, it works ok then. It seems to me that cyclling the ignition, thereby resetting the ECU, causes the ECU to now take a fresh, or new reading, and adjust the F.I. map properly.

 

[peter_sd]

I just talked to my Dealer and they talked to Yamaha. Yamaha told them that they have had complaints of this issue and have not gotten it to reproduce. They want to borrow my bike next week and run it up the local mt where my bike did it 2 days in a row. If they can get it to reproduce Yamaha is going to come down and ride the bike.

I really hope that my bike does it for them so we can get this issue resolved.

 

[ELP_JC]

ELP JC,Just a comment to suggest that before you get too crazy regarding individual injector settings, make sure to synchronize all four throttle bodies first (if you haven't already). Otherwise, you may never get things dialed in.

That's a given. I'm waiting for my synch tool, but that's the first thing to do before anything else.Thanks for making it clear to the rest man. Take care.JC

 

[PA1195]

Morning JC...here's a short test you or others may want to try

Hey Gary, that was one heck of a post buddy; thanks. I didn't know you could run the engine in diagnostic mode, but need more specifics: When can you fire up the engine:

- In the DiAg/CO general menu?

- Inside CO?

- Both of the above?

- Inside DiAg?

I doubt you can run the engine on DiAg, right? As that requires to have the kill switch on 'off' so you don't trigger all the tests as you scroll the numbers up and down, and some you don't know what the hell they are (don't ask me how I know). But let me know, as they might operate differently while the engine is running.

Thanks for that great post, but I honestly wouldn't run my engine for any length of time without making absolutely sure I'm not too lean, or I can grenade my engine in short order. Rather put up with the surging :dribble: .

That comment about cyls #2 and #3 having that crossover pipe is an excellent one. Do the plugs need to be ABOVE that? Now I certainly think so, but being behind the radiator, it'd make it infinitely more complicated to test, so I'd get around that somehow. Maybe cyls #2 and #3 need to be tested back and forth as changes are made to each other, until both show the same results, no? Time consuming, but that seems to be the answer.

THIS IS the kind of posts we need. Thanks a bunch again Gary.

JC

Hi JC and all...I'm not an engine expert so my ramblings are often just that...I was referring to first doing the Barbarian Mod, going into the CO mode not the Diag mode, starting the engine, and moving the individual cylinder values rapidly by holding down the reset/select buttons...only will set idle CO on the run of course...the CO probes need to be above the crossover...also please see my edit comments in my earlier on EGT probes and Wide Band O2 sensor/PC data aquisition that's been done on other motorcycles...do a Google search, as the equipment is readily available from several sources, in use, and real-time mapping by the owner via a Powercommander or other fuel controller is becoming common practice for some willing to invest in the equipment and learn the technique.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[ELP_JC]

Hey Skooter, you're absolutely correct in your assumptions, but remember we're not trying to SOLVE the surging problem per see, since we know it's BEYOND our reach, but just to make it bearable.

Just like the BM mode improved things for some, as well as the TB synch, raising idle, etc., I'm looking for some more of those 'incremental' mods that will eventually make it bearable. Am I making better sense now? Thanks for your post buddy.

JC

 

[radman]

What Renegade alluded to is that I sent 8 injectors to Factory Pro, and received 4 matched to 1% cleaned and flowed injectors back. I now run a 0 co setting across the board. I have the Holeshot header running through stock muffs. I run the PCIII with a map done based on the Holeshot map but made with stock muffs by Mark Knewman (yes, that Knewman), as well as the Accel Pump set at 90/20/20. Frank now has an electric motor like throttle response, a very slight buzz at 4 thou exactly (tbs is spot on), and great power. Mileage is totally dependent upon my wrist, but is reasonable, less than a pure stock set-up though. I have tested thoroughly several maps, among them the Wally Map (too lean), the original Holeshot Header Map (too rich), and now the Modified header map, which seems to work the best. I had assembled my own modified map, combining the Wally (5000 rpm and below) with the Header map taking over at the 5k mark. This worked well enough, but had lean characteristics when on the Wally. Bumping co helped this, but then when the Holeshot hit, was too rich. Strangely enough, too rich causes vibration as bad or worse than too lean, the real job is find that fine line, a line I'm pretty damn close to now. This doesn't mean a tinkers damn to your issues, two totally different systems in function, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[ELP_JC]

What Renegade alluded to is that I sent 8 injectors to Factory Pro, and received 4 matched to 1% cleaned and flowed injectors back. I now run a 0 co setting across the board.

Another excellent post Radman. Man, that solution is the heck of a lot more viable than doing it thru an EGA/dyno. That's the beauty of having people smarter than us around :yahoo: . Now I want to do that buddy. With the injectors matched, then you can bump the CO levels in unison and get much better and uniform results, but I have several questions:

1. How much did you pay, and do you have contact info?

2. When injectors are matched, how do you know your CO levels should be at '0'? Can't they be all lean, or rich still, depending which injector they were matched to? Or are they 'blue printed', meaning '0' is exactly what Yamaha intended them to be at?

3. Did your TB synch change? Just curious on that one.

4 Did you feel a difference with the change, and how big? Did you have surging before, and if so, how did it affect it? Please elaborate on that, since that's the subject of this discussion.

Thanks again for another great contribution.

JC

 

[ELP_JC]

Hey gang, Huk Finn (need to give him credit) has a source on a used (50 miles) set of headers and pipes from an '07 FJR for $100 near Seattle.

After Radman's post, don't know if it makes sense to try the EGA test anymore, but if we buy that system as a group, then we can probably sell the mufflers for twice that, having $200 to buy and install the ports, plus maybe a wideband O2 sensor, then 'owners' (who pitched in) could get the setup just for shipping money, and others for a fee. Don't know. Just thinking out loud. Please give me your feedback as that deal might not last long. Take care.

JC

 

[radman]

1. How much did you pay, and do you have contact info?

Paid nothing-they have a program in place where if one sends in 8 injectors, they get 4 matched and cleaned for nothing. This helps them to build inventory. I had 4 extras in addition to my originals, and so I was in business.

Factory Pro

2. When injectors are matched, how do you know your CO levels should be at '0'? Can't they be all lean, or rich still, depending which injector they were matched to? Or are they 'blue printed', meaning '0' is exactly what Yamaha intended them to be at?

I assumed the only reason for the varied co assignments was for tuning individual injectors-no other reason made sense, especially when one looks at the variety of settings encountered, varying not only from bike to bike, but also in relation to the individual cylinders. Once I assumed this, I started wondering about the effect of miles accumulated on these settings. Set and forget? I doubt it-each injector would accumulate deposits etc. over it's lifespan,so the settings were no more permanent than the injectors themselves. But if all injectors are as closely matched as possible, the need for the co fudge factors would be eliminated. I would think this was the intention of Yam when they put the co settings in-to equalize the injectors across the board. A 0 setting on my part allowed me to have a starting point and go from there. After much experimentation, they remain at 0, the overall best setting I've found, having tried from -10 to +10 in steps of 2, with a variety of maps.

3. Did your TB synch change? Just curious on that one.

No, TB synch is a function of mechanical airflow, unaffected for the most part by state of tune, other than cam profiles etc. As I stated in another thread, one could do a TB synch with all the spark plugs disconnected and a mechanical force spinning the engine at 1100 rpm.

4 Did you feel a difference with the change, and how big? Did you have surging before, and if so, how did it affect it? Please elaborate on that, since that's the subject of this discussion.

The PCIII for the most part cured the surging. Yammis EPA lean curve is the primary cause for that, without different fuel mapping, such as the PCIII provides, one has little, nay, 0 chance of curing that short of a custom ECM, which is more or less what the PC is. Surging is caused by a lean condition, always. Few here are old enough to recall when car factories first started putting EGR valves on, you wanna talk about surge! In fact, a whole cottage industry grew around a fix for the stumbling caused by the sudden EGR dump into the intake stream, and the lean condition it produced. Called the Reg-Rite, it was simply an adjustable vacumn delay valve, that slowed the EGR response to low vacumn caused by sudden large throttle openings. You couldn't disconnect the EGR altogether, the engine would rattle from pre-ignition like a can of marbles, the Reg-Rite helped many a car survive the 70's. Back to the question, I have discovered many interesting things with the elimination of co setting ambiguity from the equation.

1) Too rich causes vibration to increase. I know, but I can bring it on with ease via the co settings.

2) Too lean brings on surging

3) Just right is extremely difficult to arrive at, current maps were all done on machines (excepting the Wally Map) with varying degrees of injector balance, any map made on them then is also suspect, then add these to your own suspect balance condition, and it would explain why bikes all respond differently to the maps available, and not always in a positive way,or as positive as some others. Wallys was done by measuring co levels at each cylinder, yet the map makes no distinction from cylinder to cylinder, and his injectors are pretty much as suspect as everyone elses. The Wally map, on Frank, displays nice characteristics at low speed, but suffers greatly at higher rpms, including a turbo lag like hesitation at full throttle roll-ons above 4k, the header may contribute to this, but to me it feels lean. I continue to play with mapping, and plan to alter a few lines in the 4k-5k area on my current map to clean up residual vibration issues, but currently, Frank has never run as smooth, as strong, as glitch free as he does now. But he ain't perfect, and goddammit,I know thats out there somewhere, somehow.

Thanks again for another great contribution.JC

Appreciate it.

 

[BrunDog]

As said above, different bikes have different CO settings. They have never been universal for any model year.

There is no question Yamaha knows there is a problem with this bike. The '04 & '05 had some surging on some bikes, the '06 got worse, and the '07 worse yet. Yamaha reads this forum (I verified this by speaking with some of the marketing guys at Daytona), and while they tend to discount a lot of what is said here, they take consistent concerns seriously. They certainly did with the ticking, and while they never made a public admission of fault, I think they showed their guilt by silently agreeing to fix bikes out of warranty.

I think Alan is 100% correct in declaring a software change. They made a hardware change from Gen I to Gen II, so a software change made simple sense. I would be surprised if they didn't tweak the software (firmware, technically) between model years. In fact, I wouldn't be amazed if they made changes during model years. An ECU change may demonstrate this, but what good is that? How are people with 07s going to chase down 06 ECUs?

The bottom line seems to be that this bike needs a PCIII. Why anyone at this point would spend ~$12k and not buy a $300 PCIII is beyond me. Assume the bike is $12.3k and get over it. Once the PCIII is onboard, the bike runs better. If you really want to tweak this further, install Riv-Nuts and chase down an EGA to find out whassup. Tweak the map and be done with it. If the dynamic altitude thing is a problem, that is a bigger problem, but if resetting the ignition works, then at least there is a way to live with it. The alternative is the controller that DynoJet now sells that allows the rider to change maps on the fly...

-BD