need electrical advice

[Redfish Hunter]

Taking RFish's advice I searched the net. Good God! everything I want is either illegal, immoral or fattening..

Fish and Bust are correct about ground and neutral- However in my ancient and robust box they are on the same strip...

Some say use the two hots and ground-others to use neutral-others to use them both. Lacking a definitive answer I guess I'll go with hot, hot, and ground off the gen. as that matches up with the wires in the welder outlet.

Look, I can't speak to the what is legal in your area. FredW's concern over backfeeding is a valid one. The best and unfortunately most expensive way would be to install a trip/transfer switch with a dedicated generator connection. I was very reluctant to provide any direction to someone unfamiliar with modern wiring practices. Safety First!

IF you are going to do this with what you have, and I am sure that is your plan, here is my opinion. Not the sworn gospel, just an opinion. The ground wire for your home is already providing the ground. The generator's 240 volt output will be used mostly by 120V users in the home. You need a neutral. You already have a ground. I would drop the ground from the generator, let the existing ground for the house take care of that. Use the two hots and the neutral from the generator.

Again, I agree with FredW. This is a touchy subject, lives are at stake.

Please, by all that you hold dear, if you do this make absolutely certain that the main breaker is open before you connect that generator.

 

[ionbeam]

Please, by all that you hold dear, if you do this make absolutely certain that the main breaker is open before you connect that generator.

I normally don't +1 but this is one that deserves repeating. You need to ***** dummy proof your setup so that you CAN'T have the main breaker ON when the generator is connected.

 

[Geezer]

I would drop the ground from the generator, let the existing ground for the house take care of that. Use the two hots and the neutral from the generator.

Again, I agree with FredW. This is a touchy subject, lives are at stake.

Please, by all that you hold dear, if you do this make absolutely certain that the main breaker is open before you connect that generator.

Yes. You absolutely need the neutral. The ground is there for safety and should be used. If your welder receptacle does not have a ground then the box the receptacle is mounted in is grounded.

Personally, if I were doing this I would run a separate ground wire from the generator ground to the electrical ground in the house, not the plumbing. And I would only use this setup in an emergency.

And, as you already know, you must make sure the main breaker (or some other disconnect between the service panel and the grid) is off before you plug the generator in.

 

[Auburn]

Backfeeding your house via a generator is completely against electrical code and strictly illegal.

Why not do the job correctly and put in a manual transfer switch at the sub-panel? It won't be all that much more expensive and you won't fry any electrical workers if/when you have a brain fart.

Absolutely the correct answer. Depending on the panel you have, there may be a new cover that you can buy that will convert an existing panel. Cutler-Hammer makes one for some of their panels. Basically it has a manual interlock so there is no way that you can have the main breaker for the house on at the same time as the breaker that backfeeds the panel is on.

Here is a retrofit kit you can buy (these are the instructions - with pictures) https://www.interlockkit.com/InstrK6110CutlerHamNewDsn.pdf

Here is where you can buy it. https://www.interlockkit.com/cutlerhamer01.html (EDIT: on the right side of this page when you open this are other brands of panels they make interlocks for)

You will probably need to get an electrical permit and have it inspected, checking your local codes will confirm. But most states allow home oweners to get permits if they are working on the house they primarily live in. IF you are not sure, it is worth getting a licensed electrician to do the work.

Here in Washington you could be subject to civil penalties that start at $3000 for each code violation.

 

[lnewlf]

Alrighty then..RF's point about using neutral makes sense and agrees with an online tutorial on how to make up a four into three homocord. Ionbeam's point about disconnecting from the grid is valid- some kind of reminder like used on a disc lock would be prudent. The gen will see very limited use [i hope] and will not power the house which is on a separate panel . I'll take a look at a simple on/off transfer switch as Fred sed which might only be a few bucks more.. Bye the bye, while not exactly an electrical wizard, I have wired several houses including this one and never had an inspector find fault...been a while tho and I'm not up one some of the new regs [like dedicated neutral.

 

[ionbeam]

Do a quick look at Lock Out - Tag Out for ideas on keeping the main breaker safe when you need to turn gasoline into electricity.

 

[Fred W]

I see, so this is just to power a garage that is a fully separate circuit from the main house? I was thinking that you wanted to plug the genny into the handy garage outlet to back feed the whole house.

Do you have a sub panel in that separate garage? If so, that makes the transfer switch idea (or ion's LOTO) even simpler. If not, you'd either want to install a sub panel in the garage or else down next to the main panel that the garage is fed from.

Who'd a thunk you could come to an FJR Forum for advice on wiring an emergency generator?

 

[Redfish Hunter]

I was thinking that you wanted to plug the genny into the handy garage outlet to back feed the whole house.

Who'd a thunk you could come to an FJR Forum for advice on wiring an emergency generator?

I was thinking the same thing. I guess we are back to that ASSume word. You would think by now I would have learned...

Why not go to the forum for electrical advice? We seem to have representation here from practically every field imagineable, and some that defy imagination. (You know which ones I mean!) Some of these people are even fairly smart...

 

[Bustanut joker]

Glad you put the some in there red.. I was going to feel insulted if you included me in wif da fart smuckers.

 

[majicmaker]

Nice work Boys! I'll go ahead and call an electrician. Now... If any of you need your airplane inspected for anything at all, I'm your man. You know where to find me!

 

[Redfish Hunter]

Glad you put the some in there red.. I was going to feel insulted if you included me in wif da fart smuckers.

Doggonit Bust, I left myself a way out on that one as well. Everytime I get to thinking I am smart, I do something so spectacularly stupid that it changes my mind and convinces everyone around me of the truth.

Truly, I felt that this one was so important that I did my best to NOT insult anyone. I was very happy that all the right folks chimed in and said the right things. All in all a really good thread.

And Bust, for what it is worth, I am going to ask Santa to bring you something extra special this year. I hope he brings you a nice new set of mittens with solid Velcro palms. A sheep just can't get away from a good set of Velcro mittens.

 

[dcarver]

A sheep just can't get away from a good set of Velcro mittens.

Now THAT's the best part of this whole thread, right there!

 

[Bustanut joker]

Put a ... in it Carver.. :****:

Somebody wanna fill in da blank?

 

[Redfish Hunter]

Kind of back on topic, down here in South Louisiana we get a few hurricanes. We expect to lose power and be without power for an indefinite period. It is perfectly legal to feed your house with a portable generator. The power companies do lots of TV and radio ads when a storm is imminent, discussing generator safety.

While some folks just use extension cords to power the various users in the home, plenty of us just feed the house directly with the generator. There are disadvantages to both methods, and there are safety concerns with both. The best setups have a permanently mounted natural gas generator with automatic trip and transfer. All it takes is money...

All of the local hardware stores sell a "Generator Plug". This is a male end 4 prong 220 connection inside a metal enclosure. This allows you to use a conventional power cord to attach to your home. Otherwise you would need a cord with a male plug at both ends. The setup you are wanting to use will call for this. I am sure you have already thought of this but you have the potential to have a live 220 volt potential on the exposed end of the cord that connects your generator to your welding machine plug. It will (obviously) have the potential to be hot at either end, depending on which end is plugged where and which direction power is coming from.

Because the use of generators after hurricanes is such a part of our culture and is perfectly legal here, I have no personal issues with doing this. I simply want you, your family, and the poor guys working to restore power to remain safe. Good luck.

 

[majicmaker]

You're a good man Redfish. This is outstanding info for those of us who deal with those issues all too often and don't know what we don't know about electricity.

 

[BikerGeek99]

After being voted Certified Master Electrician of FJR Tech Day III, I will offer my sage advice.

You have two options.

1. It's only electricity - it already knows where to go! Just tie all the wires together and relax - the electricity already knows where to go!

2. Upgrade your generator to one that generates Peteytrons. No wires are necessary - trust me.

My work here is done.

 

[odot]

Wow, inspectors and master electricians all over this gig.....the OP has got to have all he needs here.....

.....including some velcro gloves.............

 

[Fred W]

I would never condone back feeding a house from a generator using a double male ended cord, but I will admit to having done so in an unplanned emergency. However, I am "in the business", and don't think this would be wise for anyone without a full understanding of electric power distribution to attempt.

The most important thing before ever attempting this, is to turn off the Main breaker to isolate the entire house from the power grid. This is so that you do not backfeed the entire power grid (which your little genny wouldn't like) and hurt some poor worker trying to fix the broken power lines, and also so you don't have issues when the grid eventually goes live again. Then, after the power service has been restored, all of the generator equipment must be completely disconnected and removed before that Main breaker is ever turned back on.

But, if you are thinking about how to do it now (in advance) that is definitely not the way to go. Even if you do want to power your whole house, you absolutely, positively want to install a transfer switch that simultaneously disconnects the power feed from the panel or sub-panel being powered and connects your generator to it. This ensures that you don't accidentally connect the generator to the power grid, even for a moment.

In northern New England we also experience power outages regularly. It has been pretty much every year lately, and they often last for a week or more, so planning ahead with a generator is a common thing. I have installed a second 12 circuit sub-panel (not fully populated) which is fed via an 80 amp breaker from the Main 200 amp circuit breaker panel. The circuits in this panel are just the "necessities" I want the generator to be able to power (oil furnace, well pump, refrigerator, a few lights and a few outlets in the kitchen and living room).

Between the 80A breaker in the main panel and the subpanel is the manually operated 100A rated transfer switch. The other side of the switch is wired to a 30A Power Inlet box mounted on the outside of the house, and I then use a heavy gauge, twist lock power cord to connect the 220V 30A generator output to that inlet box. I keep (and run) the generator outside in a shed away from the house so that there is no a risk of carbon monoxide poisoning in the house (just keep the shed doors chocked open when running).

It isn't the most convenient setup, like an automatic switching, whole house type, but it has also cost me less than $1000 all told, including the Generac 6500 watt emergency generator. It gets the job done and has been a godsend (for weeks at a time) over the past few years.

 

[majicmaker]

That's great info Fred. In my next of the woods, Florida Power & Light is on top of power outages like a bad rash. Even during the worst of Hurricane Andrew, we were only down for a week and over here, if you have at least half a brain everybody has enough food, charcoal, water and a makeshift method to take a decent shower even if you have to use the water in your pool. I have an Onan 6500 generator in my mobile X-ray lab to get me through with powering the bare minimum stuff to endure. But, I've been eyeballing that system you spoke of with a big propane tank and an automatic transfer switch. One day I'll get of my *** and pull the trigger on one of those. At $6000 it might be a while!

 

[lnewlf]

Well-if you want to do it right ,Fred has it nailed. I spent $300 at Tractor Supply for a dinky 3500 watt gen for one reason only-to power up the deep well submersible pump which gets it's power off a 240 breaker in the garage panel.Access to the system is a *****-involving underground cables and finished walls. I want to keep it simple and shutting off the main breaker and plugging in the gen maybe once a year is simple.

Redfish makes valid points-I doubt I would ever touch either end of a suicide cable. I know first hand what it is like to be lit up-I got it once from an industrial pipe threader that shorted-and again from a shorted kitchen range which set my pants on fire.

One thing to keep in mind...when running wire do NOT make sharp bends in the wire-the Peteytrons moving at almost light speed will wear out the wire as they make the corner..