Need More Brakes!

[Andy S]

I was 2-3 blocks from home after work this past week, and a cager left-turning in front of me almost got me. I grabbed all the brakes I could front and back, but it just wasn't what I needed. Granted the bike is 640#, plus my additional 200#, but there just wasn't enough power. I managed to JUST get by, but I really want to get more braking power. This scared the crap out of me.

I had the rear lever pushed hard (enough to feel the ABS pulsing), and I pulled really hard on the front lever,but it just did not seem to have as much front bite as I would have wanted, or as much as other bikes I have. This was my first full-on "panic" stop where I wanted everything it had. I have never really liked the idea of linked brakes, and am unsure about ABS's benefits in this situation as well. I am a fairly experienced rider and I prefer to have more control over the front brake than this event allowed.

Is there a braided brake line upgrade or a better pad composition that might help this? Any other ideas or input would be appreciated. I need more front braking power.

Rattled in SOCAL

 

[Allnight]

Sorry you had a close call, but glad it turned out ok.

Fortunately, I haven't (yet?) had one of these experiences. I'm looking forward to seeing what more experienced FJR pilots have to say!

 

[FJRONAMISSION]

Sounds like the ABS work'd!........ I have used enough front brake to do a Stoppie on other bikes, but never

had the rear end leave the ground on my FJR.

B

 

[madmike2]

Is there a braided brake line upgrade or a better pad composition that might help this?

Yep, braided line kits are available.

Any other ideas or input would be appreciated. I need more front braking power.

Are you telling us that you have never taken your bike to a parking lot and "played" with your emergency braking technique? You've never intentionally engaged your front, back and then both ABS?

How would you know where the braking threshold is?

Have you properly bled the brakes? Are you certain your braking systems are 100%?

Actually, it sounds like you had a really close call and survived it. Now you want to improve what is there and that's to be commended.

Start with a some maintenance to make certain there's no air in the lines and the brake fluid isn't old or water-logged (it IS hygroscopic).

Congratulations on surviving another drivers ignorance and incompetence.

 

[Scarman]

Take a look at your brake fluid. You might have moisture or air in the lines causing them to be a bit spongy. Braided lines are a good way to get a little more performance, but new (if needed) brake pads and clean brake fluid in freshly bled lines is where I would start.

Dave

I was 2-3 blocks from home after work this past week, and a cager left-turning in front of me almost got me. I grabbed all the brakes I could front and back, but it just wasn't what I needed. Granted the bike is 640#, plus my additional 200#, but there just wasn't enough power. I managed to JUST get by, but I really want to get more braking power. This scared the crap out of me.
I had the rear lever pushed hard (enough to feel the ABS pulsing), and I pulled really hard on the front lever,but it just did not seem to have as much front bite as I would have wanted, or as much as other bikes I have. This was my first full-on "panic" stop where I wanted everything it had. I have never really liked the idea of linked brakes, and am unsure about ABS's benefits in this situation as well. I am a fairly experienced rider and I prefer to have more control over the front brake than this event allowed.

Is there a braided brake line upgrade or a better pad composition that might help this? Any other ideas or input would be appreciated. I need more front braking power.

Rattled in SOCAL

 

[dsmack]

Here's a question: I'm not clear from your description if you applied the rear brake pedal hard (to the point of ABS activiation if I recall correctly) first, then applied full front brakes?

If so, could it be that with the activation of the rear brakes so hard first, that the ABS prevented the much more powerful front brakes to fully activate because the ABS was already in use?

I always thought it better to aggressively apply the front first, followed quickly and heavily with rear brake as needed. Am I ill-informed?

Don

 

[C&C]

Assuming your ABS kicked it (no reason to assume it did not) and your bike is in good operating condition (it's an '08, so again, assuming it is working fine and doesn't need maintenance), your bike is heavy and you can only expect so much braking performance. The only thing that is going to shorten those stops is a grippier front tire. Now whether you're willing to trade some treadlife for more grip is the question you need to ask.

 

[Toecutter]

Did you feel the front ABS engage?

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

I grabbed all the brakes I could front and back, but it just wasn't what I needed. ...but there just wasn't enough power. ...I really want to get more braking power. I had the rear lever pushed hard (enough to feel the ABS pulsing), and I pulled really hard on the front lever,but it just did not seem to have as much front bite as I would have wanted, or as much as other bikes I have.

I am a fairly experienced rider and I prefer to have more control over the front brake than this event allowed.

Rattled in SOCAL

Sounds like the ABS work'd!........ I have used enough front brake to do a Stoppie on other bikes, but neverhad the rear end leave the ground on my FJR.

Did you feel the front ABS engage?

If your ABS is 'engaged' -- you have maximum braking -- the electroncs/ABS computer is limiting any more braking.

It would be interesting to know if anyone has performed a "stoppie" with an ABS equipped FJR (I doubt it?). One of the, across the board, complaints with ABS systems (in general) is a too low a threshold of onset operation -- leaving more braking on the table (so-to-speak). I think the designing engineers take into account 'slippery surfaces' and the performance then may suffer on perfectly clean, grippy, surfaces?

It seems? -- more riders are more than willing to give up performance for perceived safety...?

 

[dsmack]

If your ABS is 'engaged' -- you have maximum braking -- the electroncs/ABS computer is limiting any more braking.It would be interesting to know if anyone has performed a "stoppie" with an ABS equipped FJR (I doubt it?). One of the, across the board, complaints with ABS systems (in general) is a too low a threshold of onset operation -- leaving more braking on the table (so-to-speak). I think the designing engineers take into account 'slippery surfaces' and the performance then may suffer on perfectly clean, grippy, surfaces?

It seems? -- more riders are more than willing to give up performance for perceived safety...?

As I undertand the system, the design reads the deceleration of each wheel and applies the ABS when the brake line pressure (from application of either hand brake lever or foot brake pedal), and modulates the maximum pressure allowed front and rear to maintain "optimum" stopping power. If "gripiness" improves, the computer will allow higher pressure to be applied, continuing to modulate as needed...

The "optimum stopping power" takes into account 'slippery surfaces' as part of the basic design of the system because the coefficient of friction is less on slippery surfaces (sand, water, etc), so if you were on clean, dry pavement where the CF is inherently high, I don't think the system design "leaves any performance on the table".

Is my basic understanding of the system faulty?

Thanks in advance for your input! This is important stuff.

Don

 

[Allnight]

As I undertand the system, the design reads the deceleration of each wheel and applies the ABS when the brake line pressure (from application of either hand brake lever or foot brake pedal), and modulates the maximum pressure allowed front and rear to maintain "optimum" stopping power. If "gripiness" improves, the computer will allow higher pressure to be applied, continuing to modulate as needed...

I'm pretty certain (but not an expert or trained in the field) that you've got it right here: that magnetic thing on both wheels near the axle is how the ABS system measures "grippiness." If it detects a *sudden* cease of rotation, it decides that the wheel is sliding, and then releases some brake pressure, to some degree and for some duration.

No matter how counter-intuitive it is, multiple studies have shown that when rubber begins sliding, it's friction goes WAY down. That means that if the wheel starts to skid, you lose a lot of "gripiness" and will take a lot more distance to come to a stop. As I said, it's very counter-intuitive: if I want to stop faster, I push harder on the brake pedal/lever.

However, growing up in Minnesnowta, I long ago learned that ABS (and pumping the brakes, pre-ABS) is a very good thing on ice: if the wheels start spinning, you can no longer steer. If the wheels haven't broken free, you have a degree of control. I believe rubber on asphalt is actually the same as this rubber on ice scenario, it just gets much better traction on asphalt.

Mike

 

[mscott]

Doesn't the ABS activate only after it senses tire slide/stop? (Which is beyond the threshold of optimum braking). As in: on a slippery surface it takes a lot less to slide a tire, and my ABS initiates quite easily. But on a hard dry surface it takes a lot more pressure on the levers to feel it.

Now, it seems to me that if the ABS doesn't feel tire slide, it allows more pressure, which means better stopping. I would think that a "stickier" front tire would do more for stopping power than braided lines on a "not so sticky" tire.

I know for the FZ1s there are braided lines and better quality pads available, that will slow you down in a hurry! But that's a non ABS bike(My gen1 is anyway)

Edited to add: I type real slow, and in my 20 minutes it took to type this, everything I was thinking was already posted, now I look like an idiot that has copied what was posted just above...This edit only took 6 minutes to type...

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

As I undertand the system, ...applies the ABS ...the maximum pressure allowed ...to maintain "optimum" stopping power. Is my basic understanding of the system faulty?

I don't know...(remember, I said -- "I think"?)? I'm certainly no expert (especially on ABS -- altho I've experimented, some, with it). But, maybe?, the underlined excerpts tell the tale? maximum 'allowed' may not be "maximum"? and "optimum" may not be 'preferred/best'?

I have heard from several in the BMW crowd that BMW is offering ABS 'defeat' switches on most of their later/current models and, they tell me, "If you really want to stop -- you turn off the ABS."

My comment about the general un-happiness (industry-wide) with 'too-early-onset' ABS is a valid one, I believe?

 

[Allnight]

The ice analogy is what keeps me coming back to the idea that ABS is a good thing.

When I was in high school, I would have hated ABS (it wasn't exactly common back then), because I was certain I could stop faster. In college, there were some races on the lake (winter time, when it was frozen), where I learned that ABS really does let you stop faster. The best I could do was by pumping the brakes, which is just simulating ABS, but poorly.

It still bugs me not being able to skid when I want to, but the fact that I don't skid when I want to stop makes up for it.

 

[08FJR4ME]

Well i guess someone has to play devels advocate here might as well be me.

First off I think the Feej has plenty of stopping power when needed and the ABS has saved my A$$ a few times. As stated earlier once the sensor determines the wheel has stopped turning it will stop pressure frome the brakes to eliminate is from slipping across the pavement. I am not sure if thats how it works if anything you do could create any braking advantages. Many will chime in and give there theory's and i can be wrong here also. JMO That being said now comes the devels advocate part.

Being aware of what is in front of you and keeping a constant vigil on just about any scenario that may happen would be the better judgement. Increasing brake performance may only be minimal on a 650# MC and is not what i would rather rely on to avoid a cituation. Other questions may be are what more could I have done to avoid this. Keep a greater visual distance ahead. Slow down more at intersections. Several things come to mind. Only you have the other answers to these questions.

Anyway I am glad you are here to ride another day and maybe we can all glean some knowledge from this. Please don't take this the wrong way because this could have well happened to me also. I allways try to come from the prospective of how my driving skills could avoid these types of scenario's.

Thanks,

Dave

about 12 min's to post and edit! :glare:

 

[dsmack]

This is a great thread! Talking about this stuff is what could save our collective asses at some time in the future... I believe it's called an "Aw Shit!" moment.

Here's my problem as it relates to the ABS on our bikes: I've been very actively involved with ABS in both automobiles and heavy trucks ever since it's introduction, but on bikes it's new to me. ABS on cars has evolved very nicely since being introduced and becoming pretty much the norm. Remember the first ones here in the US? Nail the brakes, and the damn brake pedal would jump and down, the wheels would alternately lock and unlock, weird noises would emenate from the computer mounted just on the other side of the firewall... it was pretty crude at best. Each year the systems have become more sophisticated and now are pretty much transparent to the average driver, and much more capable than in years past.

I've driven a wide variety of systems in the past few years, and my job requires that I be thoroughly familiar with how the systems work on the Ford Crown Vics and Chrylser products my agency uses. I've had the chance to take each system to the max, both in training and on the highway. They work nicely!

My problem is trying to transfer this experience to my 06 FJR. The FU factor is simply a lot higher on a bike than in a car! I have tried it on short sandy patches and once on a strip of water we sprayed across the parking lot, but truthfully I've never had to make use of the full capabilities of the system out in actual traffic. The problem for me is that I'm afraid I'll screw the pooch and lay the bike over while practicing to maximum capabilities! :blink: Anyone know where I can rent a set of training wheels?

I've tested them to the point that my personal equipment is hurtin against the tank, but that is still short of maximum!

I certainly agree that installing a "grippier" front tire will allow the ABS to decrease stopping distance, but as mentioned, it will be at quite a loss in tire mileage.

Good discussion... Thanks!

Don

 

[FJR-Voltron]

Sounds to me like you need to be shopping for better tires vs better brakes. Since the ABS sensor engaged based on tire traction/lockup, the brakes are fine and did their job. The tires are literally where the rubber meets the road.

I'd look into some stickier, though shorter life, HP tires.

 

[Andy S]

Thanks all for the comments. Some additional info:

I am an experienced and aware rider, and I do always watch for and anticipate these kinds of scenarios. I think my awareness and experience kept me safe here overall.

The day was warm and clear, the road smooth and clean.

Tires are Michelin pilot road 2's, about 5k miles on them, properly inflated.

I have checked the bike over, it's an '08 w/ 12k miles on it. All things I looked at checked out OK.

I have practiced panic stopping a number of times, but only to a point. The bike is big $$, and I am not willing to throw it away in testing it too far. I have not tested front only or rear only ABS - that is something I will try this afternoon.

I cannot tell in this incident if front only or rear only or "both" ABS activated. I was not aware that it may be an either/or/both scenario; is that the case? I'll look into that. It makes me wonder if I activated ABS through the rear brake, did it limit my front power?

I THINK hit both brakes at the same time. I am very comfortable with heavy front braking (I enjoy stoppies on the right bikes in the right place), and prefer to be able to bring the front right to the limit, but did not sense that it was anything close to the max available.

If the consensus is that tires/lines/pads is the best/only answer, any comments on the best of these?

 

[madmike2]

If the consensus is that tires/lines/pads is the best/only answer, and comments on the best of these?

Consensus? With this group? Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha... :rofl:

You've made my Sunday morning!

I have used parking lot drills to activate the ABS. The rear is much easier ti activate than the front but it certainly gave me a different perspective on maximum front braking/ ABS thresh hold than my original opinion. Of course the FJR is not a sport bike, it's 200 lbs girth difference assures that.

TO ME, the rear ABS feels like chatter, IOW, I can hear it and feel it. The front pulses through the brake lever so I felt that right away.

Okay...seriously now, there are those who have replaced their OEM brake lines with braided lines. Whether or not it changes application is open to discussion. If nothing else, it should change the "feel" because the braided liens will not expand or weaken with age like the OEM lines.

We all run the tires that suit our needs. The more aggressive riders will want grippier tires. I am satisfied with PR2s. They grip well enough for my style and they last, which is important to me. I'm done with changing tires every 3500 miles.

Brake pads? Choose wisely! I ran some EBC pads that were a bit more aggressive than the OEMs, however, I just changed brake rotors before my trip to CFR (Canadian FJR Rally) because my rotors were out of spec (and I'm not the only one who has had this privilege). There are some owners who have changed (upgraded) rotors and they can use different pads without issue.

The bottom line is that you can change all of the inter-related brake pieces to upgrade the system. At issue would be the percentage of improvement. For some, that may not matter. For others, spending thousands of dollars to improve the stopping distance by 3-5 feet may not seem worth it when reaction time could gain you that much margin.