New brake disc shudder?

[double_entendre]

I bought a set of slightly used Galfer rotors from one of the gang here and installed them a little while ago. When I'm braking there's a short period of time during deceleration when the bike shudders. It's not constant and it doesn't feel like a warped rotor, but it's got to be the only thing that could have caused the issue. At least that's my first guess.

Is there a way to check them for tolerances on the bike or does the floating aspect prevent that? Any thoughts as to what might be causing this? I torqued the bolts properly and put in new brake pads, though I didn't follow any special break-in procedures.

Thanks!

Rancho

 

[Warchild]

From an April '08 thread on Galfer Wave Rotor Stutter:

This is actually somewhat common... very frequently, it is due to foreign material on the rotor surface, or brake pads, or both.

Typically, a glob of road grease or the like will get up in the rotor/caliper area. When the brakes are activated, the substance is smeared everywhere on the rotor surface and starts to collect in the Galfer cutout recesses.

The "juddering" you are feeling is when the brake pads repeatedly bite into a non-contaminated section of the rotor, and then immediately into a contaminated section, then repeat, repeat, repeat. The clean surface will have a higher coefficient of friction than the contaminated section, so it's almost a sensation of hold/release/hold/release/hold/release as the rotor spins, and this sensation is translated as "juddering" in the handgrips.

The cure: as much as an ass-pain as it is, to really eliminate this problem requires a pain-staking rotor surface cleaning and brake pad decontamination. Ideally, rotors are removed so you can do a thorough, proper cleaning job, including taking about a half a box of Q-Tips and brake cleaner to scrub EVERY SINGLE cutout recess till they are all pristine. Brake pads are removed and scrub on medium sandpaper (using a marble slab or some other absolutely flat surface) until all traces of contamination are removed.

I just went through this exercise on the Hayabusa, and yes, it's a butt-pain. But smooth, predictable braking performance is worth the effort, particularly if one is sorta-kinda pushing the performance envelope.

 

[I'mAllIn]

Search for some of my previous posts on the same issue. I've spent hours (no less than 30....seriously) trying to fix this problem. Did all the common fixes, including the one posted by WC, to no avail. I've sent my rotors to Galfer twice for inspection. Replaced pads. Even bought a new front wheel since mine had about 2mm runout (still within factory spec). Finally, I gave up on the Galfers and went back to stock.

I did read somewhere (after all my trials) that on some occasion, "wave" rotors may cause a severe shudder / vibration if the calipers uses small pads, as the Gen II uses (2 small brake pads per each side of the caliper). The logic is that the pad will rock a bit on its center axis and the leading edge of the pad will "bite" into the leading edge of each petal on the rotor, causing a big shudder. The possible solution is to chamfer the leading edge of the pads, which I think most leading race teams do.

I may try that next time my front wheel has to come off. For now, stockers work just fine!

Good luck.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Just one little question: Did your bike do that when you had the OEM rotors?

 

[double_entendre]

Just one little question: Did your bike do that when you had the OEM rotors?

Nope. Not at all.

 

[double_entendre]

From an April '08 thread on Galfer Wave Rotor Stutter:
This is actually somewhat common... very frequently, it is due to foreign material on the rotor surface, or brake pads, or both.

Typically, a glob of road grease or the like will get up in the rotor/caliper area. When the brakes are activated, the substance is smeared everywhere on the rotor surface and starts to collect in the Galfer cutout recesses.

The "juddering" you are feeling is when the brake pads repeatedly bite into a non-contaminated section of the rotor, and then immediately into a contaminated section, then repeat, repeat, repeat. The clean surface will have a higher coefficient of friction than the contaminated section, so it's almost a sensation of hold/release/hold/release/hold/release as the rotor spins, and this sensation is translated as "juddering" in the handgrips.

I wonder why it only happens for a little bit. I especially notice it when I'm braking hard from speed. When I get down to 20mph, it starts and then quickly stops. Very strange.

And annoying. :angry2:

But boy, it ain't just the handgrips. The whole bike shudders. I feel like a 12 year old girl on the washing machine.

The cure: as much as an ass-pain as it is, to really eliminate this problem requires a pain-staking rotor surface cleaning and brake pad decontamination. Ideally, rotors are removed so you can do a thorough, proper cleaning job, including taking about a half a box of Q-Tips and brake cleaner to scrub EVERY SINGLE cutout recess till they are all pristine. Brake pads are removed and scrub on medium sandpaper (using a marble slab or some other absolutely flat surface) until all traces of contamination are removed.
I just went through this exercise on the Hayabusa, and yes, it's a butt-pain. But smooth, predictable braking performance is worth the effort, particularly if one is sorta-kinda pushing the performance envelope.

Huh. I'll give that a go. Maybe a scotchbrite pad or something like a nail brush with steel bristles rather than a metric buttload of Q-tips, for the first effort, though. I hope it doesn't come down to Q-tips. Jayzus. :wacko: Though I imagine that the ABS-esque grip-release-grip thing isn't doing wonders for my traction on the road.

Thanks for the pointers!

Rancho

 

[Warchild]

And annoying. :angry2:

Yes. It is. To the point that it *really* detracts from The Ride and consequently torques your cookies! :angry: I can dig it. BTDT.

But boy, it ain't just the handgrips. The whole bike shudders. I feel like a 12 year old girl on the washing machine.

Sounds excessive, without question. Waaaaaay too excessive. When was the last time you cleaned/torqued your steering head bearings? :huh:

Huh. I'll give that a go. Maybe a scotchbrite pad or something like a nail brush with steel bristles rather than a metric buttload of Q-tips, for the first effort, though. I hope it doesn't come down to Q-tips. Jayzus. :wacko: Though I imagine that the ABS-esque grip-release-grip thing isn't doing wonders for my traction on the road.
Thanks for the pointers!

Well, let's see first if it has a significant impact on your problem here! Who knows, you could simply have a "problem" set, or, it could be something else with the bike set-up, who knows. If the mega-cleaning doesn't improve things, then it's likely time for hard decisions.

The only other experience I would offer is that I stopped running the Galfer HH pads. They are exceptional, yes, but brutal on your rotors, and has proven to be quite the short-lived consumable. Running stock Yammy pads on my tiny little 298mm front rotors ('03 FJR), they have been kicking ass for the past 24,000 miles; they appear to be a bit more than half-way into the wear indicator slots.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Just one little question: Did your bike do that when you had the OEM rotors?

Nope. Not at all.

Then why did you change them? If the OEM rotors weren't giving you problems, why waste your money on the Galfers. Mostly, I have heard people bitch about them causing more problems than they are worth. Take them off, sell them to some other guy who wants to fix what is not broken, put your OEMs back on and use the money for something that really works. I'm guessing WC uses these pieces of crap and he has tons of experience with them, but checking all your torque values and repacking bearings? Really?? These things were not an issue BEFORE the Glafers, so that pretty much narrows it down. Really, its your money and your time, but if you end up spending 30 hours trying to fix this issue, that's 30 hours you could have been riding.

 

[double_entendre]

Just one little question: Did your bike do that when you had the OEM rotors?

Nope. Not at all.

Then why did you change them? If the OEM rotors weren't giving you problems, why waste your money on the Galfers. Mostly, I have heard people bitch about them causing more problems than they are worth. Take them off, sell them to some other guy who wants to fix what is not broken, put your OEMs back on and use the money for something that really works. I'm guessing WC uses these pieces of crap and he has tons of experience with them, but checking all your torque values and repacking bearings? Really?? These things were not an issue BEFORE the Glafers, so that pretty much narrows it down. Really, its your money and your time, but if you end up spending 30 hours trying to fix this issue, that's 30 hours you could have been riding.

Well yeah, but it's almost wintertime here, so it's not like I'll be doing all that much riding anyway....

Oh.

Wait.

I live in SoCal.

Strike that.



Anyway, why did I do it? Because it's fun to tinker. Like my father, I'm a born tinkerer. I like to fiddle with things. Right now it's the FJR, though much less than previously because the economy is tanked and so is my income (straight commission is not all puppies and rainbows). But when it comes back I'll be adding a BMW GS to the stable so I can fiddle with that too. It's a disease. Kinda like the jokes you've seen here about farkleitis.

Most of my riding is commuting anyway, so it's not like I'm going to be hopping on the FJR to go to, say, Outer Uzbekistan or something, and must have the bike running. It's fun to fiddle with the bike. As a client of mine observed once, we do things with our hands because our careers give us no tactile satisfaction. We just move OPM from one place to another. But we don't "do" anything.

Anyway, I was thinking about putting the taper bearings in the front end someday anyway. AFAICT, the only thing that would make me gun shy is doing the valves, but I've got a while to go before I have to tackle that project.

Rancho

 

[double_entendre]

And annoying. :angry2:

Yes. It is. To the point that it *really* detracts from The Ride and consequently torques your cookies! :angry: I can dig it. BTDT.

But boy, it ain't just the handgrips. The whole bike shudders. I feel like a 12 year old girl on the washing machine.

Sounds excessive, without question. Waaaaaay too excessive. When was the last time you cleaned/torqued your steering head bearings? :huh:

:lol: Torqued cookies. Love it. :lol:

Well with 12k miles on her, I haven't yet. Hasn't one of the guys here put 150k on without doing anything? One of you mods, no? Though IIRC the bike spends a lot of time in narcoleptic mode, which takes a lot of pressure off of the steering head, eh?

Huh. I'll give that a go. Maybe a scotchbrite pad or something like a nail brush with steel bristles rather than a metric buttload of Q-tips, for the first effort, though. I hope it doesn't come down to Q-tips. Jayzus. :wacko: Though I imagine that the ABS-esque grip-release-grip thing isn't doing wonders for my traction on the road.
Thanks for the pointers!

Well, let's see first if it has a significant impact on your problem here! Who knows, you could simply have a "problem" set, or, it could be something else with the bike set-up, who knows. If the mega-cleaning doesn't improve things, then it's likely time for hard decisions.

Well I'm assuming that the guy I bought 'em from was straight up and didn't flip me a bad set. Seems really unlikely. So I'll give 'em a big-ass cleaning (memo to self: search Craigslist for solvent tanks) and bolt 'em back on and see if the problem goes away. If not, well, I've still got the stockers. *shrug*

The only other experience I would offer is that I stopped running the Galfer HH pads. They are exceptional, yes, but brutal on your rotors, and has proven to be quite the short-lived consumable. Running stock Yammy pads on my tiny little 298mm front rotors ('03 FJR), they have been kicking ass for the past 24,000 miles; they appear to be a bit more than half-way into the wear indicator slots.

Well the good news is I didn't go for the aftermarket pads. I just bought a new set of stockers from my friendly local YamaMama shop. I don't need to increase my cash outgo nowadays.

Thanks Warchild. YDM!

Rancho

 

[HotRodZilla]

Just one little question: Did your bike do that when you had the OEM rotors?

Nope. Not at all.

Then why did you change them? If the OEM rotors weren't giving you problems, why waste your money on the Galfers. Mostly, I have heard people bitch about them causing more problems than they are worth. Take them off, sell them to some other guy who wants to fix what is not broken, put your OEMs back on and use the money for something that really works. I'm guessing WC uses these pieces of crap and he has tons of experience with them, but checking all your torque values and repacking bearings? Really?? These things were not an issue BEFORE the Glafers, so that pretty much narrows it down. Really, its your money and your time, but if you end up spending 30 hours trying to fix this issue, that's 30 hours you could have been riding.

Well yeah, but it's almost wintertime here, so it's not like I'll be doing all that much riding anyway....

Oh.

Wait.

I live in SoCal.

Strike that.



Anyway, why did I do it? Because it's fun to tinker. Like my father, I'm a born tinkerer. I like to fiddle with things. Right now it's the FJR, though much less than previously because the economy is tanked and so is my income (straight commission is not all puppies and rainbows). But when it comes back I'll be adding a BMW GS to the stable so I can fiddle with that too. It's a disease. Kinda like the jokes you've seen here about farkleitis.

Most of my riding is commuting anyway, so it's not like I'm going to be hopping on the FJR to go to, say, Outer Uzbekistan or something, and must have the bike running. It's fun to fiddle with the bike. As a client of mine observed once, we do things with our hands because our careers give us no tactile satisfaction. We just move OPM from one place to another. But we don't "do" anything.

Anyway, I was thinking about putting the taper bearings in the front end someday anyway. AFAICT, the only thing that would make me gun shy is doing the valves, but I've got a while to go before I have to tackle that project.

Rancho

Well, crap! Can't argue with that. BTW, I totally understand the need to take **** apart and try to put it back together, so I really do know where you're coming from on this. FWIW, for a while I considered putting the Galfers on my bike, mainly because I like the look (stupid huh?) but when I started reading up on them, I changed my mind. I would get frustrated and pissed, and if I ended up feeling like I went too far and screwed up something I couldn't fix, I would start looking for a new bike. Good luck with these things.

 

[Warchild]

I'm guessing WC uses these pieces of crap and he has tons of experience with them

Well, to be honest, I only have about a 1/4 million miles of experience using these pieces of crap on 5 different bikes over the past decade, so the jury might be still out on them.... or maybe I'm just lucky or have good karma.... though the latter is unlikely.

 

[HotRodZilla]

I'm guessing WC uses these pieces of crap and he has tons of experience with them

Well, to be honest, I only have about a 1/4 million miles of experience using these pieces of crap on 5 different bikes over the past decade, so the jury might be still out on them.... or maybe I'm just lucky or have good karma.... though the latter is unlikely.

Haha...Ok, I wasn't baggin on you. I know you use these things and seem to like them. What I can't understand is why it seems like everybody else that uses them has such problems with them. Maybe that's not the case at all and the only people speaking out are the ones with the issues, but even when I've gone searching for info on these things, it seems like there are nothing but gripes. Again, that's one of the reasons I don't really screw with my brakes. It wouldn't take me long to **** them up and they're too important for me to play around with.

 

[double_entendre]

I'm guessing WC uses these pieces of crap and he has tons of experience with them

Well, to be honest, I only have about a 1/4 million miles of experience using these pieces of crap on 5 different bikes over the past decade, so the jury might be still out on them.... or maybe I'm just lucky or have good karma.... though the latter is unlikely.

<images snipped>

BTW Warchild, it occured to me today: Is this something I'll have to do on a regular basis or is it a do it once and they're good to go for life?

Thanks!

Rancho

 

[double_entendre]

OK, so I grabbed a brush for cleaning wheels and a few cans of brake cleaner and a Scotchbrite pad and went to town on the rotors. And I put a piece of sandpaper on a slab of glass I have for sharpening chisels and planes and sanded the pads down until it was all new surface.

And then I reassembled the front end.

No change. :grrr:

This is absurd.

So I ripped the floaters off, bought new pads, and reinstalled the OEM rotors with new pads. No shudder. :angry: The OEM rotors are not nearly as good, IMHO, as the ones I replaced. Except that the OEM ones don't feel like old-school ABS kicking in.

I'm going to take those floaters and go at 'em with just plain old soap and hot water and a scrub brush and see if that helps. If I still owned a solvent tank I'd go to town on 'em in there. Then I'm gonna take the brake pads and go at 'em with a belt sander (clamp the belt sander upside down on a sawhorse outside) and sand the living **** out of 'em. :butcher:

Then I'll reinstall 'em. If THAT doesn't work, I'm gonna stick 'em in a box and send 'em back to the guys that made 'em and ask for insights. And if they don't have any insights then can throw 'em in their dumpster, 'cause brake rotors that pulse do me no f*!&ing good at all. :angry:

F**k.

Rancho

 

[blakebird]

I've put Braking wave rotors (virtually identical to the Galfers) on a number of bikes....from my R1100S Boxer Cup to my CBR1000RR to my Multistrada, with no issues whatsoever.

At the risk of armchair quarterbacking without being able to ride it myself....I would point my accusing finger at pads.

 

[double_entendre]

I've put Braking wave rotors (virtually identical to the Galfers) on a number of bikes....from my R1100S Boxer Cup to my CBR1000RR to my Multistrada, with no issues whatsoever.
At the risk of armchair quarterbacking without being able to ride it myself....I would point my accusing finger at pads.

Shouldn't be that. When I put the Galfers on I put brand spanking new YamaMama pads on also.

Dunno.....

Rancho

 

[bikesniffer]

After a fubar break problem like you're having I'd be ready for the nuthouse and all the pharmaceutical candy I could find

...put the OEM rotors back on and focus on another take apart and re-assemble task on your bike...if that's what you need for tactile therapy (and btw I do understand that need)

Looks like the Galfers are starting to give ya sleepless nights

Alfred

 

[double_entendre]

After a fubar break problem like you're having I'd be ready for the nuthouse and all the pharmaceutical candy I could find
...put the OEM rotors back on and focus on another take apart and re-assemble task on your bike...if that's what you need for tactile therapy (and btw I do understand that need)

Looks like the Galfers are starting to give ya sleepless nights

Alfred

Nah, you should see my rant about cookies at the ADV forum if you wanna see me get excited. :lol:

I did put the OEM rotors and new pads back on and everything is fine, though I still think the Galfers are much more responsive and aggressive than the OEMs. Haven't diddled with 'em yet, but it's not a crisis. Instead, I added a plated 1996 XR600R to the garage and been diddling with that. :yahoo:

Thanks!

Rancho