New R6 17.5K Redline Bogus

[markjenn]

https://www.motorcycledaily.com/01february06_redline.htm

I like Yamahas (I own three), but as time goes on, I do have to admit that they're CYA approach to problems is quite off-putting.

- Mark

 

[Toecutter]

Most ECUs determine engine RPM based on signals from a sensor that monitors the rotation of either the crank or the camshaft, and these sensors are typically extremely accurate. If they weren't, the ECU wouldn't know where each cylinder was in its cycle, and thus wouldn't know when to open the injectors or send a spark to the plug.

Even at 'only' 16,200 rpm, the technology of getting that done boggles my mind. Each fuel injector and spark plug is doing the job almost 68 times per second. :blink:

 

[tstaff]

Wow, this will be a Black eye for Yamaha, it will be interesting to see how or if the major motorcycle mags handle this one.

 

[Timbo2015]

Most ECUs determine engine RPM based on signals from a sensor that monitors the rotation of either the crank or the camshaft, and these sensors are typically extremely accurate. If they weren't, the ECU wouldn't know where each cylinder was in its cycle, and thus wouldn't know when to open the injectors or send a spark to the plug.

Even at 'only' 16,200 rpm, the technology of getting that done boggles my mind. Each fuel injector and spark plug is doing the job almost 68 times per second. :blink:

I came up with 135 times per second.

 

[Toecutter]

My bad. Even more astounding!

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Timbo2015  Posted on Feb 2 2006, 01:14 PM
QUOTE (toecutter @ Feb 2 2006, 12:59 PM)

Even at 'only' 16,200 rpm, the technology of getting that done boggles my mind. Each fuel injector and spark plug is doing the job almost 68 times per second.

I came up with 135 times per second.

68 times a second is correct for sequential firing injectors. But with the commonly used "wasted spark" ignition often used on 4-cyl bikes (and, I admit to not knowing what a new R6 uses) and given an even firing 360 degree crank (again see previous caveat) (actually, the two go together) the plugs would be firing 270 times a second.

Thus the need for those expensive rare metal plugs -- or, frequent replacements due to the electrons taking small amounts of matter with them when they leave (at least, theoretically?).

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

Hmm...possible scenario:

Engine design Engineer lead one day said, "The Engine will do 17,500"

His team later told him, "Nope"

He told his team to alter tach and made the claim to management who bought it.

Now he doesn't work there anymore.

:lol:

Only 16,200??? I'm still buying one.

 

[markjenn]

Hmm...possible scenario:
Engine design Engineer lead one day said, "The Engine will do 17,500"

His team later told him, "Nope"

He told his team to alter tach and made the claim to management who bought it.

Now he doesn't work there anymore.

:lol:

Only 16,200??? I'm still buying one.

I have a 2001 which goes to 15,500, which the 1st gen design did since 1999. It's a great bike and I'm sure the new one is better, but a 700 rpm bump for a seven-year newer design isn't something that Yamaha has much to brag about.

- Mark

 

[BrunDog]

At 16.2k rpm, the crank revolves 270 times per second, the plugs fire that frequently, and the injectors discharge at half that rate: 135 times per sec.

Remember there are only two signal lines from the ECU for the coils. Each coil fires two plugs.

-BD

 

[nusman68]

This will certainly be an embarrassment for Yamaha; reminds me of the Mazda RX-8 'scandal'. When the RX-8 first came out, it was heavily advertised as 250 Hp output. Once the mags started putting them on a dyno, it came out that that it didn't make 250; Mazda quickly changed the specs. to 230 Hp, and reportedly offered a rebate to customers that had already bought one. Later still, I read it didn't even make the 230; if you look at their website now, it lists power at 197 for the automatic, 238 for the 6 spd.

-makes you wonder how these mistakes happen; don't they know these specs will be checked? Especially when you consider how 'spec oriented' car & bike enthusiasts are, in addition to all the various magazines, etc.

 

[ionbeam]

The '99 Ford Cobra was recalled because the snake was quite a bit short on venom. Ford chose to do a lot of expensive recall work to make it right instead of just changing the specs. :bigeyes:

Alan

 

[markjenn]

Yes, the Miata and Cobra are the two major "failure to meet spec" issues that have occurred recently.

In some ways, this one is less serious; the engine power peak is at 14.5K so the only difference between a 16.2K redline and a 17.5K redline is a bit more overrun capability -- the engine should make the same peak power. This change in overrun is probably inconsequential to 99% of users.

OTOH, Yamaha can't attribute the problem to tolerances, measurement error, or any other slop factor - the ECU knows exactly what RPM the engine is turning and someone typed a line of code in the ECU tthat said EXACTLY when the rev limiter intervenes. So Yamaha said 17.5K when they knew full-well it was 16.2K. So if someone can argue that they bought the bike to use this extra overrun capability, it is a blatant failure on Yamaha's part to meet spec. When you advertise that a machine does X, legally there is an implied warranty that it should.

We'll see how this plays out. If Yamaha is smart, they'll fess up to it, offer to refund anyone's money who bought one if they want to return it (only a handful are in the field), and provide some nominal compensation for anyone who keeps their bike. And remove the 17.5K spec from all brochures, web sites, print ads, etc. and have new customers sign a form that says they acknowledge the new redline and they're Okay with it.

This is the right way to handle it -- take their medicine and move on -- but as I said in my earlier post, they seem to be in CYA mode these days. This is souring me on the brand.

- Mark

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

Well,

I have spoken to two people that have ridden the R6. One like it so much he traded in his 2005 R1 for it. He was impressed the most by two things: Flickability and the power plant.

The other guy, who rides pretty much every type of bike in existence said, "I have never been so impressed with the first ride of any other bike."

It is a shame that such an engineering accomplishment as the R6 has to be tainted by bad PR due to a bad business decision.

 

[sparky3008]

It is a shame that such an engineering accomplishment as the R6 has to be tainted by bad PR due to a bad business decision.

Deleted

 

[jestal]

Jaguar was another one that ran afoul of the power numbers. Their supercharged engine didn't quite make the 400 HP advertised either. Their "mistake" was blamed on rating the engine according to European DIN standards and then "forgetting" to include DIN with the US power ratings. SAE power ratings will always be lower than DIN due to the correction factors.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

It is so easy to get used to being played with that I tend to look for the good side of things anymore. It seems that what was intollerable 10 years ago is an everyday occurrence now. Didn't people used to do what they say and say what they do? This is gone from business for the most part and I suppose this is a prime example. A shame.

 

[MrVvrroomm]

Yes this is an advertising faux pas for Yamaha, but does it really make any difference as long as it's making more HP than any other 600cc bike? It's making the power, just not at the advertised engine speed.

And realize if you own one of these you're going to be the constant brunt of jokes from your riding buddies, but you're still gonna be whoopin' their *****.

How many street riders will even get close to this in normal everyday riding? If they spend much time there, in any gear, their license will be in serious jeopardy.

Yeah, Yamaha f'd up, but this is still THE 600 supersport for '06.

 

[JSimon]

Useable power band does indeed make a difference. The power band determines gearing which determines power at the rear wheel. If you can add 13% to a machines power band you also have the capability of adding performance through gearing. Say you target max speed in 1st gear of 60 mph, you've got that extra power band to work with and you adjust the gearing to match it. The retuned machine would eat the other alive. Yamaha claimed an almost 13% increase in RPM vs. a real increase of about 4.5%

I think that is the bigger issue anyway, their claim was all but 3x what the actual change was, that's unreal.

I'm basing this on the old motor's RPM of 15.5, the new real limit of 16.2 and their claimed limit of 17.5. If those numbers are not accurate then I digress.

JS

 

[markjenn]

Useable power band does indeed make a difference. The power band determines gearing which determines power at the rear wheel. If you can add 13% to a machines power band you also have the capability of adding performance through gearing. Say you target max speed in 1st gear of 60 mph, you've got that extra power band to work with and you adjust the gearing to match it. The retuned machine would eat the other alive. Yamaha claimed an almost 13% increase in RPM vs. a real increase of about 4.5%

Power is torque x RPM. The reduction in redline doesn't make the bike slower or make less power.

By all reports, this new R6 motor's power peak is at 14.5K, so the only difference between a 17.5K redline bike and a 16.2K redline bike is in the overrun capability - the ability to overrev the engine past its power peak to avoid an upshift. This is generally a track-only thing.

It is not the actual loss of performance that is of real concern - this is not he RX8 or Cobra situation where an engine doesn't make the power it is advertised to. The problem here is that Yamaha pitched the new R6 as having F1 and MotoGP ultra-revving technology for the common man. Now it ends up that it really has about the same valve technology as the old bike. People buy bikes not for what they are going to use them for, they buy them for what they can do or have the potential to do.

And there is considerably evidence that Yamaha lied and then tried to cover it up with having the tach read high. I don't expect motorcycle mfgs to be saints, but I don't expect that they lie routinely and then hide their lies. At least to me, they have stepped over a gray line on being honest and having some principles.

- Mark