Non Starter!

[Robster]

Hi all, I have a 2003 Gen 1 and I've searched the forum (and googled) but can't find anything that is like my problem, so .......

For a while now I've had a 'bad starter' - slow cranking etc. (lots on the forum about that) so I obtained another starter motor with the intention of changing it out if the starting problem got too bad. Well the time came and yesterday I stripped her down to her underwear and pulled the starter - so far so good.

I dismantled the starter and a small piece of metal fell out from the brushes end. This was part of one of the 2 screwed contacts and the whole thing had disintegrated probably causing arcing and the bad starting. Anyway, I made a good working starter from the 2, tested it (spun like a good 'un) and installed it.

Reassembled back to what she should look like, turned the key, sweep of dials & fuel pump prime - hit the start button - starter whirred away but no fire! Removed one of the plugs (it looked OK to me) and hit the start button again expecting to feel some blowing out of the hole - but no, nothing! Aargh !!!!!! Seems like the engine isn't turning over.

Is there any way the starter can run backwards and not engage the starter clutch correctly? Could it miss engaging with the starter gear? Or could it possibly be a switch or sensor failure?

I'd be tearing my hair out if I had any, so thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

[2wheels4fun]

Was plug wet or damp? Try throttle wide open, crank for 30 seconds, let cool for 1 or 2 mins and repeat. If does not start or attempt to fire after 3rd time, then it's a different issue than I am thinking about.

 

[RossKean]

Is there any way the starter can run backwards and not engage the starter clutch correctly? Could it miss engaging with the starter gear?

I think running backwards is possible if assembled incorrectly. Seems to me I read something about that recently...

 

[mech 1 twa]

DC motor can run in any direction. Starter. Does it sound the same. From description engine not turning over. No push of air from plug hole its not turning engine .

Wires to brushes or brush plate reversed not sure. Why did you take apart newer starter?

 

[wfooshee]

You would know if the starter wasn't cranking the engine! COMPLETELY different sound, just the spinning motor, none of the jh-jh-jh-jh-jh that you get when cranking cylinders through compressions. If the starter's running backwards, and not engaging the gearing, all you'd get is WHEEEEEEEEEE!

 

[Robster]

Thanks for the really quick responses guys;

2wheels4fun - plug was dry and a nice shade of beige

RossKean - could you point me in the direction of that information?

mech 1 twa - I took the newer (2nd hand) starter apart to make sure everything inside was clean and tidy, then, because my starter was toast, used the brushes end to replace the faulty section on mine. I did notice that there wasn't a line marked on the body of the 'newer' starter.

wfooshee - yes, you're correct the starter does indeed just go wheeeeeeee!

Looks like I'm going to have to strip her down and check that starter again.

Do you think it would bump start?

 

[RossKean]

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/170238-starting-issues/page-2?do=findComment&comment=1397130

 

[FJRay]

I've done a bunch of FJR starters and never had one turn backwards. I didn't think a DC motor could change directions without reversing polarity. I do scribe the case on each one before teardown. I have found that they can be tuned a bit by rotating the body slightly and checking draw on the bench. I can get them down to 20 amps most of the time.

 

[RossKean]

I've done a bunch of FJR starters and never had one turn backwards. I didn't think a DC motor could change directions without reversing polarity. I do scribe the case on each one before teardown. I have found that they can be tuned a bit by rotating the body slightly and checking draw on the bench. I can get them down to 20 amps most of the time.

I would have expected the same but did not know how these are set up (just referred to a recent note I read on the forum). Polarity should dictate the direction for a normal DC motor...

 

[Robster]

To test the theory of the starter turning the wrong way (and before stripping her down again!), would anything be damaged if I connected an old (but good) battery with the leads reversed (+ to black lead on the bike and - to red) or would that not work?

 

[RossKean]

You might let the magic smoke out of the ECU. Not to mention R/R etc.

Don't!

 

[Robster]

Thanks for that RossKean - frying the ECU would definitely be the ultimate 'bad thing'! Looks like another tear down is in order

Could the starter be tested in the bike before the throttle bodies, air filter etc. are reassembled (I don't much fancy removing all the parts again if it's not successful this time!)?

Does anyone know in which direction the starter should turn?

 

[RossKean]

I would like to think there some built-in protection to prevent a very expensive mistake but I would not make that assumption.

 

[mech 1 twa]

NO started is grounded to engine case from contact to it. Bolts, housing. Ever jump start a car and reverse cables? Not good. Main fuse from battery gets toasted on either car or other damage .

 

[Robster]

Today's update - stripped down again, removed starter and used the centre section from the older starter (this one had the line-up scribe marks on it). Tested and working OK - phew!

Reinstalled the starter, took all the spark plugs out, used my older battery and ran-up the starter in situ - success, all holes puffing! (even had one of the plug leads come apart in my hand so screwed t back in tight and made sure the others were tight too).

Carried on with the reassembly - air filter on, tank on, turned the key, gauge sweep, fuel prime, pressed the starter with a little trepidation and ......... she roared into life in about a second!

If anyone had passed at that time they'd have thought I was some sort of lunatic jumping around and cheering!!

So I let the temperature get to normal and turned her off. You can't believe how relieved I was and put everything else back together. Letting her cool down, so put all the tools away and did a bit of polishing. Had a coffee and relaxed for a while then went back out and started her again - same start, yippee, so went for a short spin round the block, put her away and will take her out for a better run on Tuesday.

Thanks for all the advice guys, will let you know how it goes!

 

[Harald]

I've been off the forum for days, but I see you got her fixed. Yes, a starter will run backwards if assembled 180 degrees out as I experienced and reported in the thread RossKean linked to.

 

[Uncle Hud]

Harald posted: I've been off the forum for days, but I see you got her fixed. Yes, a starter will run backwards if assembled 180 degrees out

as I experienced and reported in the thread RossKean linked to.

Hey! That's like the Gold Wing reverse gear!

 

[Harald]

Harald posted: I've been off the forum for days, but I see you got her fixed. Yes, a starter will run backwards if assembled 180 degrees out

as I experienced and reported in the thread RossKean linked to.

Hey! That's like the Gold Wing reverse gear!

I've never looked at how they make that work, but maybe they have a way of reversing polarity to the starter motor?

I just know that I always cringe when my Wing riding buddy pulls "nose in" on downhill parking spots, thinking "he's gonna have a hell of a time backing that pig out of the spot" until I remember that he has a reverse "gear".

 

[Uncle Hud]

Harald posted: <snip>
... but maybe they have a way of reversing polarity to the starter motor?

The Gold Wing's reverse button disengages the clutch, switches battery polarity to the starter motor, and meshes the starter motor with the drive train. I believe the 2018 GW automatic transmission has a legit, throttle-controlled reverse gear which is limited to 1 mph or so, and the base 2018 Wing has no reverse mechanism at all.