O2 Sensors, "metric" bikes, California Models

[RossKean]

As documented in "Problems" Click , I recently had a major difficulty with bike operation when a wire from the O2 sensor was inadvertently pinched between the oil pump cover and the engine case. The white wire was apparently at least partly shorted and resulted in VERY rich running, gutless below 2000 rpm and a very thirsty engine. Wire repaired and the operation immediately returned to normal. It has been mentioned that the FJR will run OK with the O2 sensor disconnected but my situation was that the sensor was connected but provided an erroneous reading which was obviously way off. Questions:

1) How would a mis-calibrated O2 sensor affect operation and fuel economy?

2) Is there an easy way to test the O2 sensor for proper function? I have to wonder whether the unexplained significant differences I have seen in terms of fuel consumption between FJR's riding together may be a function of O2 sensor accuracy/calibration. Might be interesting to compare measured AFR.

Is the instrument cluster of the USA Gen II bike REALLY metric? I have been trying to find out whether there was any way to switch the operation of the LCD display from US to Metric. Yamaha doesn't seem to mention any way (eprom swap, dip switches or jumpers) to switch to metric but they will sell me a metric one for $1000+. I can't imagine that there is a completely different design for the US cluster. A couple of interesting observations...

1) Keep an eye on the temperature display. When the temperature is right on an exact Celcius temperature (i.e. 68 °F = 20 °C) and the temperature is slowly increasing, the °F will spend almost no time at 69 but skip to the nearest °F value corresponding to 21 °C (70 °F). Much less noticible at "in-between" temperatures.

2) Next time you reset the average MPG meter, reset the trip odometer at the same time. Keep an eye on the mileage where the avg mpg updates. You will find that it is at the mile equivalent of 1.0 km intervals.

What's the point - nothing really. Seems that Yamaha has a metric instrument cluster that has some sort of additional function to translate into miles/gallons. Would be nice to be able to eliminate this or at least be able to switch back and forth.

My bike is a US vehicle, purchased from the original owner who bought it from a dealer in Connecticut. Imagine my surprise when I discovered (during a CCT change) that it is actually a California bike as evidenced by the charcoal cannister and associated plumbing in the lower front fairing. It seems that surplus bikes destined for California are commonly shipped to out-of-state dealers. Quick way to tell what you have - there is an extra hose coming out in the front of the bike and at the bottom, there are three screws rather than one holding the two sides together (two of the screws secure the canister bracket to the fairing). Again, no real point to this other than to warn people to make sure they understand what they have before they remove the side fairings for maintenance work. After doing the wrong way when we did the CCT, I discovered that side fairing removal is best accomplished by only removing the left canister bolt from the bottom of the fairing, taking off the left side and simply disconnecting the extra hoses. Leave the canister attached! MUCH easier than the way we did it! Anybody know if there are any other differences in the Cali bike other than the canister and associated plumbing? Has anyone heard of problems associated with the canister - plugging, corrosion etc.?

By the way, if you ever have to replace the California "stuff", be prepared to PAY. The bracket retails at over $500 and the canister is around $270!! With all of the other pieces, the non-discounted cost is close to $1000. Fairings are slightly different with extra holes for the hose and canister bolts.

Ross

 

[Bounce]

Is the instrument cluster of the USA Gen II bike REALLY metric? I have been trying to find out whether there was any way to switch the operation of the LCD display from US to Metric. Yamaha doesn't seem to mention any way (eprom swap, dip switches or jumpers) to switch to metric but they will sell me a metric one for $1000+. I can't imagine that there is a completely different design for the US cluster. A couple of interesting observations...1) Keep an eye on the temperature display. When the temperature is right on an exact Celcius temperature (i.e. 68 °F = 20 °C) and the temperature is slowly increasing, the °F will spend almost no time at 69 but skip to the nearest °F value corresponding to 21 °C (70 °F). Much less noticible at "in-between" temperatures.

2) Next time you reset the average MPG meter, reset the trip odometer at the same time. Keep an eye on the mileage where the avg mpg updates. You will find that it is at the mile equivalent of 1.0 km intervals.

What's the point - nothing really. Seems that Yamaha has a metric instrument cluster that has some sort of additional function to translate into miles/gallons. Would be nice to be able to eliminate this or at least be able to switch back and forth.

are you talking about some difference beyond flipping between display modes by holding down the select button for several seconds?

 

[RossKean]

are you talking about some difference beyond flipping between display modes by holding down the select button for several seconds?

Doesn't work for Gen II

 

[joebiodiesel]

As documented in "Problems" Click , I recently had a major difficulty with bike operation when a wire from the O2 sensor was inadvertently pinched between the oil pump cover and the engine case. The white wire was apparently at least partly shorted and resulted in VERY rich running, gutless below 2000 rpm and a very thirsty engine. Wire repaired and the operation immediately returned to normal. It has been mentioned that the FJR will run OK with the O2 sensor disconnected but my situation was that the sensor was connected but provided an erroneous reading which was obviously way off. Questions:

1) How would a mis-calibrated O2 sensor affect operation and fuel economy?

2) Is there an easy way to test the O2 sensor for proper function? I have to wonder whether the unexplained significant differences I have seen in terms of fuel consumption between FJR's riding together may be a function of O2 sensor accuracy/calibration. Might be interesting to compare measured AFR.

Ross

Hi Ross,

From looking at my Service Manual for my 2008 FJR, the white wire is a ground for the signal side of the O2 Sensor (as opposed to the heater side). It shares that ground with a bunch of other sensors as well, and is grounded inside the computer. Shorting the white wire on the O2 sensor harness really can't cause the bike to run poorly. It's already at ground, so shorting it there won't result in and changes to the circuit. So unless something else is wrong with the bike resulting in an unforeseen ground loop, something else fixed the poor running condition. I realize that that was the only thing you repaired, and the bike went from running poorly to running well, but the repair doesn't make sense to me. Want to convince yourself? Backprobe the white wire on the O2 Sensor, connect it to chassis ground with a jumper wire and see what happens. If I had to guess, maybe the signal wire was pinched as well, but not visibly.

To answer you questions:

1) Yes. Failed/biased/degraded O2 sensors cause poor fuel economy and eventually poor performance. It happens all the time.

2)A way to test them, Yes. It's not always perfectly easy though. A quick check is to see if the move from around 100mV to 900mV during normal operation. If an O2 sensor can do that, it is probably not biased. On our bikes you have to be at a perfectly steady cruise for a minute or two before the O2 sensor starts to cycle.

To check them completely you need to perform enrichment/enleanment checks, response time tests, check the heater performance and maybe even confirm their reading with a gas bench...but most folks don't go that far to confirm the operation of a relatively inexpensive part. They'd just replace it first.

Joe

 

[RossKean]

...From looking at my Service Manual for my 2008 FJR, the white wire is a ground for the signal side of the O2 Sensor (as opposed to the heater side). It shares that ground with a bunch of other sensors as well, and is grounded inside the computer. Shorting the white wire on the O2 sensor harness really can't cause the bike to run poorly. It's already at ground, so shorting it there won't result in and changes to the circuit. So unless something else is wrong with the bike resulting in an unforeseen ground loop, something else fixed the poor running condition. I realize that that was the only thing you repaired, and the bike went from running poorly to running well, but the repair doesn't make sense to me. Want to convince yourself? Backprobe the white wire on the O2 Sensor, connect it to chassis ground with a jumper wire and see what happens. If I had to guess, maybe the signal wire was pinched as well, but not visibly.

All I know is that the single white wire was pinched and it is the only thing I delibertely "fixed" when I had the bike apart. (Who knows if I inadvertently fixed something else when I put it all back) I wonder if the noisy, possibly intermittant chassis (engine) ground is anything like a clean sensor ground in the ECU. With all of the ignition stuff/generator/rectifier etc. going on, I am betting that all grounds are not created equally. Noise from the engine "ground" might have upset readings from any of the other sensors as well although stuff like temperature and fuel seemed stable. Someday, when I have nothing better to do, I may see what happens if the white wire is shorted to the engine case...

As for being inexpensive, the "list price" for the O2 sensor is $260 and even a discount parts place charges $190.

 

[ionbeam]

..the white wire is a ground for the signal side of the O2 Sensor (as opposed to the heater side). It shares that ground with a bunch of other sensors as well, and is grounded inside the computer. Shorting the white wire on the O2 sensor harness really can't cause the bike to run poorly. It's already at ground, so shorting it there won't result in and changes to the circuit...

That is not always true about ground being ground. I wrote to Ross about this some time ago. I'm letting this discussion play itself out with fresh ideas before I add my thoughts.

 

[Bounce]

are you talking about some difference beyond flipping between display modes by holding down the select button for several seconds?

Doesn't work for Gen II

can we get a confirmation from others about this? i thought it was universal. no?

 

[RossKean]

are you talking about some difference beyond flipping between display modes by holding down the select button for several seconds?

Doesn't work for Gen II

can we get a confirmation from others about this? i thought it was universal. no?

Discussion Here

 

[joebiodiesel]

..the white wire is a ground for the signal side of the O2 Sensor (as opposed to the heater side). It shares that ground with a bunch of other sensors as well, and is grounded inside the computer. Shorting the white wire on the O2 sensor harness really can't cause the bike to run poorly. It's already at ground, so shorting it there won't result in and changes to the circuit...

That is not always true about ground being ground. I wrote to Ross about this some time ago. I'm letting this discussion play itself out with fresh ideas before I add my thoughts.

I would definitely like to hear what you have to say about this. I'm as certain as I can be that Sensor Ground, Engine Ground, and Chassis Ground would all be at the same level on our bikes. I'm always ready to learn something new though, and it happens all the time.

Joe

 

[ionbeam]

..the white wire is a ground for the signal side of the O2 Sensor (as opposed to the heater side). It shares that ground with a bunch of other sensors as well, and is grounded inside the computer. Shorting the white wire on the O2 sensor harness really can't cause the bike to run poorly. It's already at ground, so shorting it there won't result in and changes to the circuit...

That is not always true about ground being ground. I wrote to Ross about this some time ago. I'm letting this discussion play itself out with fresh ideas before I add my thoughts.

I would definitely like to hear what you have to say about this. I'm as certain as I can be that Sensor Ground, Engine Ground, and Chassis Ground would all be at the same level on our bikes. I'm always ready to learn something new though, and it happens all the time.

Joe

Differential grounds vs. absolute grounds information coming to your PM tomorrow morning. As I said earlier, I don't want to say anything to inhibit fresh ideas. Off to experience some single malt scotch right now ...

 

[wfooshee]

... single malt scotch right now ...

Ah, priorities. Excellent!!!

Except I can't handle scotch. Bourbon is where life begins. But must return to work tomorrow, so not tonight.

 

[majicmaker]

... single malt scotch right now ...

Ah, priorities. Excellent!!!

Except I can't handle scotch. Bourbon is where life begins. But must return to work tomorrow, so not tonight.

Walter,

When you don't have to work tomorrow. Don Q Gran Anejo Rum. Nector of the Caribbean Gods my Friend, Sent from Heaven for all mandkind to Enjoy! You're Welcome in Advance

 

[ionbeam]

..the white wire is a ground...It shares that ground with a bunch of other sensors as well, and is grounded inside the computer. Shorting the white wire on the O2 sensor harness really can't cause the bike to run poorly. It's already at ground, so shorting it there won't result in and changes to the circuit...

That is not always true about ground being ground...I'm letting this discussion play itself out with fresh ideas before I add my thoughts.

I would definitely like to hear what you have to say about this...

Differential grounds vs. absolute grounds information coming to your PM tomorrow morning...

PM sent this AM.

 

[Bounce]

are you talking about some difference beyond flipping between display modes by holding down the select button for several seconds?

Doesn't work for Gen II

can we get a confirmation from others about this? i thought it was universal. no?

Discussion Here

thanks. missed that the first time around.

 

[joebiodiesel]

All I know is that the single white wire was pinched and it is the only thing I delibertely "fixed" when I had the bike apart. (Who knows if I inadvertently fixed something else when I put it all back) I wonder if the noisy, possibly intermittant chassis (engine) ground is anything like a clean sensor ground in the ECU. With all of the ignition stuff/generator/rectifier etc. going on, I am betting that all grounds are not created equally. Noise from the engine "ground" might have upset readings from any of the other sensors as well although stuff like temperature and fuel seemed stable. Someday, when I have nothing better to do, I may see what happens if the white wire is shorted to the engine case...

As for being inexpensive, the "list price" for the O2 sensor is $260 and even a discount parts place charges $190.

Hi Ross,

PLEASE don't see this as an attack, or me trying to prove anyone wrong. That's not my game at all. I sure don't know everything, and could have easily had to eat my words on this.

The vast majority of my experience in computerized engine control comes from the automotive industry, and not powersports, so I'm definitely not an expert on bikes. I am curious as heck about them, and some of my experience helps me on everything from diesel trucks to snowmobiles.

I spent a few minutes fooling around on my bike today, and I tried it.

Oxygen sensor reading at hot idle, without grounding the white wire.

Oxygen sensor reading at hot idle while grounding the white wire.

Resistance reading between oxygen sensor ground and chassis ground.

With continuity on these circuits, I don't think they can be isolated, unless someone can explain to me how something like that could work.

As for the expense on the O2 sensor. :dribble: I didn't expect that! Heated O2s on cars can be as cheap as $50.00, less than an hour labor.

Joe

 

[ionbeam]

I spent a few minutes fooling around on my bike today, and I tried it.

[sNIP]

Resistance reading between oxygen sensor ground and chassis ground.

That answers my question in the PM I sent you Joe. I would be very interested if someone else could verify that the sensor ground on their FJR is common to chassis ground also. I ask this because Joe also has an issue with his TPS (sensor grounded device) and I wonder if this may be related to his problem. I would also be interested to see if chassis and sensor ground remain shorted together with the ECU plug unplugged. Joe, PM coming, probably after our Northshore ride on Sunday.

Edit: For ease of access I just checked the sensor ground on my Gen I Atmospheric Pressure Sensor and the "isolated" sensor ground is indeed connected to chassis ground. I read less than 1 ohm of resistance.

 

[joebiodiesel]

I would also be interested to see if chassis and sensor ground remain shorted together with the ECU plug unplugged.

No. The connection breaks when the ECU is unplugged.

Joe

 

[dcarver]

my brain aches..

 

[RossKean]

Hi Ross,

PLEASE don't see this as an attack, or me trying to prove anyone wrong. That's not my game at all. I sure don't know everything, and could have easily had to eat my words on this.

...

I spent a few minutes fooling around on my bike today, and I tried it.

...

Joe

No problem!! I'm certainly not offended! Not much difference in the readings between grounded and not grounded according to your measurements. Any idea what the normal voltage range is for an O2 sensor? If low to high is less than 100 mV, even that little bit might be significant.

Anybody consider that what was happening in my case might not have been as simple as a dead short? Take two dissimilar and reactive metals (such as aluminum and copper) and put them into intimate contact in the presence of an electrolyte (i.e. dirty water) and you have likely created an electrochemical cell that could further impact the voltage reading from the sensor - adding or subtracting from the "natural" potential produced by the sensor. I have NO idea how you could reproduce conditions to test such a thing. Further complicated by the fact that the copper wire strands are (tin?) plated.

For whatever reason, it is "fixed" for now. If it stays fixed, I will assume (rightly or wrongly) that the O2 wire was the problem because nothing else was changed in a significant manner - as far as I know. If the problem returns, I guess I'll be digging back into it.

Ross