Power Commander V w/Autotune Discussion

[HotRodZilla]

So...My '07 has a modded airbox, which I think was the C-Dog mod or something a few years ago. The response was immediate, and I can hear this bike pulling air under load at high revs. I ran a Uni filter for a while, but after cleaning it a couple times and the PITA I think it is, I just went back to paper OEM filters. Now no worries about dirt getting past an oiled filter either.

I have TB Black aluminum pipes on it, and my PAIR system is also removed. I did the Barbarian mod and moved the values up +5 I think. The initial move was too much, so I brought them down.

My ECU was changed out during the recall at my 4k oil change. The ECU issue was that the ECU was requiring a 1/4 of the throttle to readjust to altitude settings and that turned out to be too much. The new ECUs were reduced to 1/8 movement and apparently solved the problem. I'm sure 1/8 and 1/4 are a +/- deal, so not exact.

With all those mods, my pipes are the correct color, my fuel mileage has not suffered, my bike will pull the front wheel off the ground at 7000 feet, and I have never had an issue with stumbles or flat spots. My driveway is 5110 feet. This bike pulls hard all the way to red line. I ride to Sandia Peak a LOT, which is 11,500 ft and haven't had any issues. I've ridden every pass in Colorado with the same non-issues.

My suggestion was not to run a zero map in the PC-V, but to actually disconnect it and see what happens. Plug your O2 sensor back in and let the bike manage it's AF settings. PC-Vs are not perfect and although rare, they have flaked out before. Look up the procedure for the Barbarian Mod, and adjust those numbers some. It's totally reversable if you want to do something else.

Unlike other motors you have tuned, the FJR is pretty spot on. Look up WickedWebby and read his mods thread. He heavily modded his bike and knew how to run and program the PC-V. After airbox mods and pipe mods, his bike LOST power and had a slower 1/4 mile time. Too much power got moved to near red line, where very few of us actually ride. Most here have accepted that screwing with these motors too much, without major mods, like cam changes, yields very little.

Try what I said and see what happens. My bet is you will be pleasantly surprised and will probably put that PC-V in the For Sale section.

As for throttle jerkiness, make sure your throttle cables are properly adjusted. That solved 90% of my problem when I had it. It has never crept up again, or maybe I'm just used to it. My throttle does not negatively affect my riding, and if you ask around, my bike and I move right along in the front of the pack.

Good luck...

 

[ajpagosa]

All good suggestions, thanks. I did understand what you meant, at this time I don't want to take the PCV off yet. If the things I was talking about (zero map etc.) don't work well I will try that.

Oh I also have done the Barbarian mod, have the settings written down somewhere can't remember off the top of my head but they weren't a lot. All this stuff, a PC3 then PCV then PCV + AT200 etc. etc. was to try to get the base mildly altered (pipes PAIR K&N etc.) bike running right, which it never seemed to do even after the ECU "fix". Maybe there was variability during 07 model run, maybe something else wrong with my bike, don't know. Seems some people just can't get their 07's running right, others like you insist it is perfect and wonder WTF we are complaining about.

Also the question is not so much, how well does it run dead stock. The question is how do you make it run better and/or tune it properly with mods? If the answer is the latter is not possible, well that would be the first time in my life that was the case. But it could be true, who knows? My issue is compounded by high altitude.

Anyway I will first run zero map, no AT200, then with AT200 with various limits and Dynojet AFR's, and report back here. If that does not improve things then I will remove the PCV and re-install stock O2 sensor, see how it goes.

 

[0Face]

I'm planning on resetting the base map and then running the autotune and adding the adjustments. I'll do this a few times and see how it runs. It seemed rich when I got back from my last trip. I have the airbox mod, K&N Air filter, and Remus Hexicone exhaust.

 

[ajpagosa]

At last some progress! Bike is running very well, maybe best it's run in years. Take that with a grain of salt but I'd pretty much given up, or at least gotten tired of messing with it. Here's what I did.

Last evening I loaded the zero map, left everything else the same. Went for a short 30 mile ride. Still had a stalling type behavior right off start while cold, and when warmed up a slight stumble on throttle tip-in at say 2.5k-4k rpm range. Aside from that getting on it a few times felt pretty good. I was not wearing ear plugs (to be able to listen carefully for minor stumbles), I concluded those TBR pipes are just too freakin' loud, even with the dB "killer" inserts. However evey little stumble was pretty obvious, could not cruise at a steady rpm without it doing the raspy cough thing. Vowed to remove them next day. However as far as overall smoothness, compared to the base TBR map (002 above) it was an improvement.

This AM did the following. Kept the Zero map, set up the AT200 using AFR values from the 001/002 maps (they're the same) with adjustments restricted to max of +/-10%. Turned off the accel pump feature (it was not set very aggressive but I decided to turn it off anyway). Set warm-up time to 300 seconds before AT200 would start doing its thing. Removed the TBR exhaust and replaced with stock cans.

Start up had same stumble off idle, and riding around for the first 5 minutes was simar to yesterday (AT200 was not working yet), just quieter. However once things got warmed up bike was very smooth, no stumbles off idle or steady throttle, none (joy!). Did a few pulls to near redline in 2nd and 3rd, rock solid no issues. A number of limited pulls in 4th and 5th (no room), same. Outstanding. Then did about 150 mile loop from Pagosa Springs, CO (7200 ft ASL) to Creede (8800 ft ASL) and back, passing over Wolf Creek Pass twice (just under 12000 ft). Very smooth, buttery power, zero stumbles, none on restarts after stopping. Best the bike has run in years. And now quiet without those TBR cans.

You can see from the trim table below where the adjustments were made. It is not clear to me how the AT200 works, because I did multiple pulls at 3/4 to 100% throttle yet nothing got kept there. I did most of the ride in the 2500-5k rpm range, under 50% throttle, and that is where most of the trims happened. I think I'm going to email dynojet over the weekend and ask about how the adaptations are computed and stored, because I really expected there to be more of the table filled in. Maybe there is a decay type feature? I don't know. The ride back was much more leisurely and there was a lot of traffic so I didn't have much opportunity to get on it, except for a few WOT passing maneuvers.

Anyway here is the trim table. Note how it compares to the above 001 and 002 maps. I think I'll dial up the adjustment range to +/-20%, which is the default, and see how that goes. Really pleased with this. In principle a closed loop wideband system should significantly outperform the stock ECU, provided you have good AFR tables. This is literally the first time I've felt this thing (PCV + AT200) is beginning to run right. The trick I believe was to start with the zero map and NOT the 001/002 maps, as at my elevation both those were going to be pretty far off.

I saved this map, will start again from zero trims but +/- 20%. I plan to find a place where I have enough room to do pulls to redline in 3rd gear, at various throttle %. Then shut off the AT200 and see what is up. Will post up as soon as I get some more data or hear back from Dynojet about how the AT200 works. Stoked to be finally making some progress on this.

 

[0Face]

Nice!

Now just for my own clarification, when you say "Zero Map", the tables have no AFR set at all or are you referencing the trim tables?

It sounds to me like you're starting with zeros in the Target AFR table or the primary map.

 

[ajpagosa]

Nice!
Now just for my own clarification, when you say "Zero Map", the tables have no AFR set at all or are you referencing the trim tables?

It sounds to me like you're starting with zeros in the Target AFR table or the primary map.

Sorry, was not clear. There is a map you download from dynojet's website called "zero map". It just has all zeros in the (primary) fuel table, ie no changes to fueling at all. I guess you can use it as a test map for various things. It also has no AFR values, they are zero too. So I copied the entire target AFR table from the 001/002 maps (both have same table) and then pasted them onto the zero map's AFR table, so when the AT200 was switched on it would have something to target. The idea was to start with the base open loop Yamaha ECU (since no factory O2 sensor), and go from there with trims, with the wideband dynojet O2 sensor targeting the AFR's in Dynojet's maps, running closed loop on top of the ECU. Reasoning was at least for my elevation, the 001/002 maps were going to be very far off, and looks like they were.

 

[0Face]

Ahhh... Ok. That's what I was getting at. Thanks!!

Pretty much what I'm going to do.

 

[sath182]

Nice!
Now just for my own clarification, when you say "Zero Map", the tables have no AFR set at all or are you referencing the trim tables?

It sounds to me like you're starting with zeros in the Target AFR table or the primary map.

Sorry, was not clear. There is a map you download from dynojet's website called "zero map". It just has all zeros in the (primary) fuel table, ie no changes to fueling at all. I guess you can use it as a test map for various things. It also has no AFR values, they are zero too. So I copied the entire target AFR table from the 001/002 maps (both have same table) and then pasted them onto the zero map's AFR table, so when the AT200 was switched on it would have something to target. The idea was to start with the base open loop Yamaha ECU (since no factory O2 sensor), and go from there with trims, with the wideband dynojet O2 sensor targeting the AFR's in Dynojet's maps, running closed loop on top of the ECU. Reasoning was at least for my elevation, the 001/002 maps were going to be very far off, and looks like they were.

I hate to be some sort of kill joy here, but the is a round about way of just selecting all the cells in the main table and pressing 0 (when using the PCV software).

 

[Mr_Canoehead]

You can also copy and paste to and from Excel to adjust the cells. I find that much easier than working in PowerCommander.

 

[ajpagosa]

Nice!
Now just for my own clarification, when you say "Zero Map", the tables have no AFR set at all or are you referencing the trim tables?

It sounds to me like you're starting with zeros in the Target AFR table or the primary map.

Sorry, was not clear. There is a map you download from dynojet's website called "zero map". It just has all zeros in the (primary) fuel table, ie no changes to fueling at all. I guess you can use it as a test map for various things. It also has no AFR values, they are zero too. So I copied the entire target AFR table from the 001/002 maps (both have same table) and then pasted them onto the zero map's AFR table, so when the AT200 was switched on it would have something to target. The idea was to start with the base open loop Yamaha ECU (since no factory O2 sensor), and go from there with trims, with the wideband dynojet O2 sensor targeting the AFR's in Dynojet's maps, running closed loop on top of the ECU. Reasoning was at least for my elevation, the 001/002 maps were going to be very far off, and looks like they were.

I hate to be some sort of kill joy here, but the is a round about way of just selecting all the cells in the main table and pressing 0 (when using the PCV software).

Nope, you're no killjoy you are correct. I wanted to start with a blank map with all the other settings back to defaults as well. Then I cut and pasted a fresh AFR table from the other maps onto the zero map, when I discovered there were no AFR targets (all zeros) in the zero map (duh).

Quick update, just finished a fast 250 mile loop, Pagosa CO to Chama, NM; then Antonito, CO to Tres Piedras NM, back to Chama, home to Pagosa. This was approx all above 7500 ft, maxed around 10k ft a couple spots. Mostly nice windy mtn roads, little traffic, excellent scenery. Had tweaked the max trim to +/- 20% from +/-10%, did not zero out or save the prior trims from the 10% run. Bike ran flawlessly, very pleased. Really good throttle response, zero stumbles or hesitation, even at cold start first thing.

Did not pull the trim table, will do so when I get a chance. Have not emailed dynojet yet will do so soon. Wanted to have some more data.

BTW this (zero map + AT200) now runs better than either 001/002 w/wo AT200 engaged, also better than the so called "smoothness" map w or w/o AT200 engaged. At least on my quirky altitude-fixed ECU 07, at high altitude, so far.

 

[ajpagosa]

email to dynojet.

Pasting this here to save, not clear if it went through using their website. I cannot find the old tech support email contact I've used previously. They just have a web form now and it is not very user friendly. There is a phone number for tech support I'll try later.

=====================================================================================

Hi,
Long time Dynojet user, from numerous PC3's, a PC3 wideband on a R1150GS, now to PCV + AT200 currently on 3 of my bikes (WR250R, Roadliner, FJR1300).

I have some questions regarding the algorithm the AT200 uses. I've run into some issues on my 2007 FJR1300 at high altitude.

1. Assuming warm up period is over. Does the AT200 always adjust trims trying to hit AFR targets, even if a trim adjustment has not been saved?

2. Is there an error threshold for the AT200 to start to try to hit AFR targets, if so what is it?

3. Is there a threshold of some kind for saving an adjustment to the trim table?

4. Can the AT200 hit an AFR target even if hitting it is out of range of the trim table limit? IOW is the trim limit only applied to what is saved in the table?

I am asking because I've run many miles on this bike, over numerous throttle/rpm ranges, and various maps, yet when I inspect trim tables often I find no trim in throttle/rpm areas I know I've repeatedly run. It seems there is some threshold (duration and level maybe) for trim adjustment, which makes sense. But it also makes sense that the AT200 might still be hitting AFR targets even if whatever criteria had not been met for saving a trim. For example PC3 wideband on my GS has no provision to save trims, nor trim limits, yet it is constantly trying to hit (the single) target AFR.

5. Once a trim adjustment has been made and saved to the table, what are the conditions under which it gets modified again, either lower or higher?

The problem I have with the FJR is I'll start off on a given map, bike will run fine, go for a long ride with elevation changes. By the end of the ride bike is nearly unrideable, hesitating and stumbling often. Trims are all over the place. I suspect what may be happening is I am at higher elevation (~8k ft) and ride up to 12k over passes and such. The base DJ maps I assume were done at near sea level, so they are way off. The AT200 is trying to both fix that and hit AFR targets for much less dense air, but I'm riding around with as much as a mile or more elevation change, and that just swamps the algorithm.

Recently I've tried wiping out the base DJ map to all zeros (eg zero fuel map and OEM open loop ECU, no OEM O2 sensor), enabling AT200 with limited adjustment range. That has worked quite well as the AT200 is only going rich/lean off open loop OEM ECU speed/density calculations and not trying to undo the DJ map.

6. What do you think of the above idea (zero map + AT200)?

Numerous FJR owners report similar problems with PCV + AT200 on forums, and 07 is an especially bad year for them with altitude. My bike has the altitude fix ECU from Yamaha, no other major mods.

I was hoping to get some insight into precisely how the AT200 algorithm is working in real time so I can tune further, esp at high altitude. Thanks for your time.


Regards,

ajpagosa

edit: OK it took numerous tries but email finally went through. Will still call later today.

 

[ajpagosa]

Here's the trim table from yesterday's test ride, with 6-3 test to compare. As stated zero fuel map, but upped trim limit to +/- 20%. Did not wipe prior trims from 6-3-2016 test. Still few/no trims saved in higher rpm/throttle ranges though I went there often enough. Interesting stuff going on here.

6-3-2016 test (+/- 10% trim limit):

 

[Mr_Canoehead]

AJ, can you post your target AFR table?

 

[ajpagosa]

AJ, can you post your target AFR table?

Sure, here it is. I copied/pasted it out of the OTS Dynojet FJR map 001/002 (same table):

 

[ajpagosa]

OK just got off the phone with Dynojet. Some really good info, will summarize here and add more thoughts later.

AT200 algorithm requires at least 10 "hits" in a cell to update trims. It is not duration dependent, ie you can do a pull from say 2000 rpm to redline holding the throttle at a fixed position and it should score 1 hit for each cell in that throttle % column. Get 10 or more of them in that cell and the AT200 will update that cell, I assume based on some average of the hits. Not clear if it has to be in one engine turn-on and ride or if it stores thru on/off cycles.

AT200 is always trying to hit AFR targets in real time, regardless of how the trim adjustment limit +/- is set. This is to me the key point. It works like my old PC3 wideband but instead of just one AFR for the entire map you have that big table, and it is tweaking fuel in real time, all the time, and not limited to whatever +/-% trim limit was set at.

The best way to use it according to DJ is to find an area where you can do some controlled pulls to redline at various throttle positions, inspect and save trims, do more runs, until trims stabilize under 10%. Then TURN OFF the AT200.

We talked at length about how to handle high altitude operation and problems with lots of changing altitude. He agreed that the base DJ maps were probably way off to start with and probably difficult for the AT 200 to handle. Basically he said (interpreting here) start with the zero map at some high elevation, get it to adapt some, and then hopefully get the map somewhere in the middle of where most of your riding takes place.

I would much rather leave the AT200 on with a good map "in the zone" and have it target those AFR in the table in real time, than turn it off and hope the open loop Yamaha ECU can keep up.

More later.

 

[ajpagosa]

email reply from DJ, more good info here. Unfortunately this contradicts some of the info I got on the phone. Note specific FJR info after Q5.

1. Assuming warm up period is over. Does the AT200 always adjust trims trying to hit AFR targets, even if a trim adjustment has not been saved?

Yes. The Auto-tune Trims are applied to the engine in real time and as they are being developed in real time even if you do not connect the software and “Accept Trims” to put them into the permanent Fuel table.

2. Is there an error threshold for the AT200 to start to try to hit AFR targets, if so what is it?

Yes. The AFR sample being reported by the wideband sensor must be within 11.5 – 16.0 for Auto-tune to be able to use the sample to make a new trim. If the sample is richer than 11.5 or leaner than 16.0, Auto-tune will assume that there is a bigger problem than it can make corrections for.

3. Is there a threshold of some kind for saving an adjustment to the trim table?

Yes. In the Auto-tune configurations there are max enrichment and max enleanment settings. These settings define exactly how much fuel trim that Auto-tune is allowed by you to apply into the Trim table. If it maxes out it allowable trim, you must Accept Trims before you can get any further adjustment.

4. Can the AT200 hit an AFR target even if hitting it is out of range of the trim table limit? IOW is the trim limit only applied to what is saved in the table?

Let me give you a hypothetical example. If for example, the Target was 13.0 and the sample was too lean (say 15.4). Auto-tune will add trim and try to enrichen to 13.0. Now let’s say that it added all of the max allowable enrichment of 20. The trim table now has a 20 and the resulting AFR is now 13.4. It will stay at 13.4 and will not be able to add any more fuel or get any richer. You can then accept trims. Now the base fuel table gets you to 13.4, and Auto-tune can now add another +4 in the trim table to get you to the target of 13.0. If you accept that, you should now be at 13.0 on the base fuel table adjustment alone and no further Auto-tune Trim should be needed.

5. Once a trim adjustment has been made and saved to the table, what are the conditions under which it gets modified again, either lower or higher?

If Auto-tune creates a trim, it will use that trim, check the resulting AFR, compare it to the Target AFR, and make additional trim if necessary.

On some of the newer FJR’s we can NOT disable the stock O2 sensor. You might be encountering an issue where the stock O2 sensor and Auto-tune are essentially fighting with each other. Auto-tune might create trim and cause enrichment that the stock O2 sensor then detects and starts trying to enlean by trimming fuel out from the stock ECU. In situations such as this, you must disable Auto-tune in the stock closed-loop range by specifying a Target AFR of zero (0). The stock closed-loop range is typically up to 20% throttle at 0-7000 RPM.

On 2007 models where the stock O2 sensor has been unplugged, you might still see the bike randomly get rich for a brief moment while cruising. This prompts Auto-tune to subtract a bunch of fuel, the bike’s ECU stops the extra enrichment, and now Auto-tune has to “learn” to undo the previously made enleanment trims. This basically results in constant surging at cruising speeds and the cruise range of the trim table being all over the place.

So try wiping out the Target at 0-20% throttle up to 7000 RPM on the FJR and see if that fixes the problem. If so, you might leave it disable there all the time or at least turn the Max enleanment setting down.

6. What do you think of the above idea (zero map + AT200)?

I think you need to focus more on zeroing the Target AFR table, rather than zeroing the base Fuel table.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Regards,

Chris Kelly

Dynojet Research Inc.

2191 Mendenhall Dr. Suite 105

North Las Vegas, NV 89081

1-800-992-4993

 

[ajpagosa]

OK well the email reply to Q4 above and the example given is a lot more definitive than what the phone guy said. So it does not work as I'd hoped (targeting AFR all the time independent of set limts), and you do have to iterate and save trims to the point that AFR target lies within the set limits.

Interesting comments after Q5, FJR-specific issues related to surging 20% and lower throttle and 7000 rpm and lower. I take it to mean run the base map (001/002) but zero out AFR target tables 7k rpm and under and 20% throttle and under. Must admit if there was an issue of the PCV + AT200 getting confused and becoming unridable, this is a good explanation for why. Esp under additional issue of high altitude and rapidly changing elevation.

I am a little disappointed to get totally contradictory info from 2 tech support guys at the same company literally minutes apart. Though this is not unusual in tech. Both their responses had nuggets of good stuff, and in real time talking on the phone I was able to clarify Q1-Q3 which apparently I did not articulate well enough in the email, as that guy did not answer what I thought I was asking.

 

[ajpagosa]

So let me try to summarize what has been learned.

1. AT200 is always adjusting fuel in each cell, targeting the AFR table, up to the limits specified in the set up configuration. It cannot adjust in real time past that limit. It takes 10 or more "hits" per cell in order for a trim value to be stored in the trim table. Once that happens some average of hits is stored for that cell. Consequence: in order to actually hit the target AFR's you have to have the adjustment range big enough to get there. Or you have to have iterated enough and saved trims to the point that the distance from the fuel map cell is within the adjustment limit.

2. There are ranges of measured AFR outside of which AT200 will not work. Apparently outside of AFR 11.5 – 16.0. Consequence: depending on elevation, base map, adjustment limits etc. you could find yourself out of that range and once there the AT200 will not get you out. I can see how getting out of that range given discussion below could happen, if your base map is way off one way or another, large elevation changes, and/or the ECU is doing crazy **** on its own. Then you'd get into a bad loop and never get out.

3. FJR stock ECU has specific known (to DJ) quirks randomly richening up and leaning out mixtures at 20% throttle and less, and 7k rpm and under. This includes most common range of cruising operation. AT200 will then get very confused and get in a cycle of trying to undo them, undo its own corrections, its own corrections to corrections, ad nauseum. This is in the range of quite a lot of steady state cruising, and you can easily see how AT200 could get totally lost here. Furthermore PCV interpolates between cells, so for example if the 20% is off it will still be used to calc fuel for anything between 20 and 40%.

4. Instead of starting with a zero map as I did he is suggesting zero-ing out AFR table in the above range. This is kind of making sense to me as clearly the trims I've developed above on the zero map are heading toward the 001/002 map in the 40% and below. 6k and under range. I'll have to give this a try soon. But I'll keep the zero maps I made, as it is working quite well.

Progress.

 

[Mr_Canoehead]

AJ, can you post your target AFR table?

Sure, here it is. I copied/pasted it out of the OTS Dynojet FJR map 001/002 (same table):

Interesting - that is much richer than I was aiming for...I was going from 13.8 down to 13. Looks like DJ is aiming for 13.2 everywhere except where you are cruising (where they aim for 13.6)

 

[ajpagosa]

AJ, can you post your target AFR table?

Sure, here it is. I copied/pasted it out of the OTS Dynojet FJR map 001/002 (same table):

Interesting - that is much richer than I was aiming for...I was going from 13.8 down to 13. Looks like DJ is aiming for 13.2 everywhere except where you are cruising (where they aim for 13.6)

Yes it is, I was surprised by that too. What is also interesting is even with those "rich" AFR's, the DJ maps 001/002 are much LEANER than stock in places (neg fuel). By this I take it to mean, relative to these AFR's, that the stock ECU is too lean at lower rpm/lower throttle, and too rich other places, even to hit these apparently rich AFR's. The assumption here is the AFR table associated to a given map is the one used to generate the 001/002 maps on a dyno for best power. And I guess DJ found the FJR mostly likes to run richer than one would expect.