Radar Detectors

[Flylooper]

So here's the deal:
Location: Southbound on Oregon US Hwy. 97 between Maupin and Madras

Road condition: Perfect. Surface smooth. Sweepers and straights through rolling hills.

Weather: Clear, cloudless.

Traffic: Nada, zip, zed. I own the highway.

Prima facie Speed Limit: Posted 55 mph.

My speed: Incredibly excessive.

25 years driving big rigs and lots and lots of experience avoiding tickets coupled with my love of exceeding the posted limit has taught me how to "minimize" my chances of getting a performance award. (only one in 10 years or so and I put 150,000 miles on a year)

A good R/D is a valuable "tool". Any of the three are good, I'm trying Beltronics next. I currently have the Escort.

A CB radio is more valuable for "monitoring" the trucker channels. They do talk to each other and pass on information re: current LEO positions. (If you can stand all the BS on the CB, I can't)(Those big rigs passed might have passed on a little info about your speed. I've had it happen to me, but that's another story. And I've passed on information, "Don't know which highway he took officer, but it was red and very fast and you are at least a mile behind him.")

The most valuable tool is common sense, your EYES and local knowledge. I never speed "excessively" in conditions you described. Rule one, if you can't see if there is a cop, assume there is one. Oregon is the worst. From CA to Idaho you go from a state that is rational, NV which allows a reasonable limit 70-75 and a 5 mph cushion on top of that, to Oregon. An anal place with a excruciatingly slow speed limit of 55 over hundreds of miles of desert. Impossible! However, I've observed there is at least one LEO working between every town from the NV border to the Idaho border. And, they all run radar often setting up a trap just over the hill, or around that "sweeper". My solution is to find someone like yourself that wants to fly and follow about a half mile to a mile behind. Radar detectors are useless against an experienced LEO operator if you are the only target around. Often they run their radar on all the time which, means they are lazy and then the R/D helps. But, if they use instant on and only shoot those they know are speeding, without a sacrificial lamb you are toast. This makes speeding at night in the wide open space states, risky.

So, I don't speed until all the conditions are in my favor....Then hope for some good luck.

Like they said, laser makes the game really hard. Getting to the point it's only "safe" to speed in high density traffic, with lots of cover....just the time you shouldn't. As far as I know, they haven't developed a "moving" laser set-up yet and must operate from a stop. But soon to come, I'm sure.

You're spot on in your description of Oregon LEOs. Somehow they have it in their skulls that two lane roads in the middle of the high desert, totally devoid of traffic, deserve a 55mph limit. What nonsense! Which leads you to the obvious conclusion that tagging people like me is a source of cash for the counties and one horse towns out there in the middle of nothingness.

Sheriffs are particularly bad. I have been attending the city council meeting of my little town of Jefferson (pop. 2500) and I came to find out that the city gets over $18,000 in NET revenue from traffic fines levied in our area. Amazing! And we don't even have a police department! WE have contracted with our county for Sheriff's deputies to patrol the town.

Being an ex-Californian, I have actually changed my opinion of the whole traffic law enforcement process (in Oregon). I used to think that LEOs were paid to keep highways safe and motorists (and moto riders) from killing themselves. To a point I still buy into that notion. But here, the PRIMARY job of these guys is to simply pinch people. The very fact that they use devices such as radar and LIDAR, hide themselves in the bushes, and all the rest...simply means that they're not interested in anything else but the pinch, and the revenue it brings in. They basically pay their own wages (and overtime if they have to go to court) and leave lots of bucks for the municipalities, too.

For years, in California, the Highway Patrol wasn't allowed to use radar/LIDAR. They always paced speeders and then nailed them. (And they were friggin' good at it, too.) Someone figured out the revenue possibilities, I guess, cause now the Chippies use them all over the state.

So...bottom line...it's a game. It really is. If you love speed and motorcycles you had damn well do everything you can to minimize the chances of being pinched. (If you want to ride the speed limit out in rural Oregon, maybe one should consider a Harley-Davidson) I know there's no fool proof way of avoiding a LEO intent of nailing people. But you can give yourself a fighting chance with a good RD and some common sense, as you say. As for the CB....that's the next farkle on the bike!

I just got back from the rally I mentioned above. The Escort worked beautifully. I was northbound on I-5 heading home this morning from Roseburg, the RD went off in full "K" mode - I slowed down to 65 (the speed limit) and an oncoming OSP cruiser appeared about 15 seconds or so after the warning went off. Plenty of time. I was amazed that the RD could pick up such weak signals, but it did.

 

[Flylooper]

Since it's not Friday, I'll admit to teaching both a radar and lidar operator's course last week.

Is it not so that even "instant on" radar guns "leak" some radiation that can be picked up by good detectors?

The other consideration I would think is that a LEO, cruising along the freeway would have his gun on all the time, rather than run the radar and drive at the same time, right? It seems to me - and I'm just guessing - that "instant on" is something that's used more when the LEO is pulled over and working his radar to catch speeders, no?

 

[Flylooper]

To all of you with the Escort 8500, how did you mount yours to the bike? I've got mine stuck to the front brake reservoir with heavy duty velcro, but something more secure would probably be a good idea.

I bought a dash shelf for my FJR and I've mounted my GPS, my garage door opener and my radar detector on the dash shelf. The GPS (Garmin) has its own mount, which is screwed on to the dash shelf. The new Escort RD is velcroed

on to it. Works beautifully. (So far!) Very secure, with lots of surface to work with.

 

[snikr]

To all of you with the Escort 8500, how did you mount yours to the bike? I've got mine stuck to the front brake reservoir with heavy duty velcro, but something more secure would probably be a good idea.

I got one of theose mounts Skyway sells (or BikeEffects.com has them). It's a plate that attaches to your reservoir (look at his web page for details) AND it has a strap that goes over my 8500 X50. All for about $40. And for those who run a V1 and use this kind of mount. How the heck do you see your arrows???

Tom

 

[EODSarge]

Since it's not Friday, I'll admit to teaching both a radar and lidar operator's course last week.

Is it not so that even "instant on" radar guns "leak" some radiation that can be picked up by good detectors?

The other consideration I would think is that a LEO, cruising along the freeway would have his gun on all the time, rather than run the radar and drive at the same time, right? It seems to me - and I'm just guessing - that "instant on" is something that's used more when the LEO is pulled over and working his radar to catch speeders, no?

No. While theoretically any piece of electronic equipment is radiating something; the unit is not transmitting microwave energy in the frequencies that a detector will pick up and what it is leaking is very, very weak. And "instant on" is used all the time- whether moving or still. It's just good radar technique- you first make a visual estimate of the vehicle's speed, then transmit and get a clear doppler tone and a speed reading. It's not really that hard to do, even moving, with some practice. Now, this doesn't mean that there aren't lazy operators out there who just leave their units transmitting all the time- I know there are. I stress good radar technique and proper legal procedure in my classes, but I'm fooling myself; I know that many of my students will go out and be lazy. Woe be to them should they ever get called out on it in court; they will have blown their credibility with me and the judge from that point forwards.

I'm not going to get in a debate about "speed traps" and revenue and all that, though; suffice it to say that I've seen the issue from the other side of the fence and feel that there's a lot of misinformation out there, but I know that I would be beating my head against brick wall trying to convince folks otherwise.

 

[Flylooper]

Since it's not Friday, I'll admit to teaching both a radar and lidar operator's course last week.

Is it not so that even "instant on" radar guns "leak" some radiation that can be picked up by good detectors?

The other consideration I would think is that a LEO, cruising along the freeway would have his gun on all the time, rather than run the radar and drive at the same time, right? It seems to me - and I'm just guessing - that "instant on" is something that's used more when the LEO is pulled over and working his radar to catch speeders, no?

I'm not going to get in a debate about "speed traps" and revenue and all that, though; suffice it to say that I've seen the issue from the other side of the fence and feel that there's a lot of misinformation out there, but I know that I would be beating my head against brick wall trying to convince folks otherwise.

Good call, Sarge! Thanks for the clarification on the other stuff, though.

Bob

 

[Harald]

Love my V1!

Here in WA state, I've seen state patrol "revenuers" use various methods. They have LIDAR, which is deadly for speeders unless they have one of those Lazer Blinder jammers. For regular radar I've seen the lazy guys cruising the back highways with their unit continuously transmitting - I love those guys! Other cops drive along and use instant on. Even the instant on has given me warnings in advance as they blast some car ahead of me. That Valentine really picks up signals around corners and long ways off.

Where the V1 really shines is with the arrows. Sometimes I get a signal and notice it's weak AND FROM THE REAR. No need to slow down because I know the signal is from the rear. If it was a weak signal from the front, then it could be one of those revenuers using instant on as they drive toward me and I best slow down. Those arrows are indispensable!

 

[Rob]

I drive roughly 150,000 miles a year. No its not a typo. I have found that by the time you RD goes off he can have you. Sorta that whole I can see him so he can see me thing. The question is Does he have you or the guy in front or behind or is he facing the wrong way eating a Doughnut. Keep that in mind when you come over a hill and he is behind the tree. You hear a buzz and he already setting his coffee down for the chase. Just man up and try to out run him. That makes them happy cause they get to drive fast. And you may get away with it. Happens all the time in the movies.

 

[ctfjr]

V1, never let me down. Just remember, when you see 'em with laser guns, you're screwed. Slow down or pay. No R/D out there will help you with laser.

+1

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

<snip>...You hear a buzz and he already setting his coffee down for the chase. Just man up and try to out run him. That makes them happy cause they get to drive fast.

But....don't crash -- that requires alot more paperwork on their part, and makes them mad (don't ask me how I know this...)

 

[k7lvo]

Since it's not Friday, I'll admit to teaching both a radar and lidar operator's course last week.

Is it not so that even "instant on" radar guns "leak" some radiation that can be picked up by good detectors?

The other consideration I would think is that a LEO, cruising along the freeway would have his gun on all the time, rather than run the radar and drive at the same time, right? It seems to me - and I'm just guessing - that "instant on" is something that's used more when the LEO is pulled over and working his radar to catch speeders, no?

No. While theoretically any piece of electronic equipment is radiating something; the unit is not transmitting microwave energy in the frequencies that a detector will pick up and what it is leaking is very, very weak.

When instant-on radar is used in the moving mode, it still has to keep track of the speed of the patrol vehicle, which means that it has to transmit short bursts from time to time; if the patrol vehicle is changing speeds, the radar has to transmit more often. I haven't worked on radars for a while, so there may be newer models out there that don't calculate patrol vehicle speed until the operator activates the unit, but there are still plenty of the models in use that burp once in a while. (And there are still plenty of X-band radars in use, too, even by state police agencies, if Oregon is any example.)

And "instant on" is used all the time- whether moving or still. It's just good radar technique- you first make a visual estimate of the vehicle's speed, then transmit and get a clear doppler tone and a speed reading. It's not really that hard to do, even moving, with some practice. Now, this doesn't mean that there aren't lazy operators out there who just leave their units transmitting all the time- I know there are. I stress good radar technique and proper legal procedure in my classes, but I'm fooling myself; I know that many of my students will go out and be lazy. Woe be to them should they ever get called out on it in court; they will have blown their credibility with me and the judge from that point forwards.

In my experience there are MANY officers who patrol with the unit on, whatever the reason. When you think about it, how many drivers run radar detectors? How many drivers speed? A LEO can keep as busy as he wants to without "working" the radar. I figure that for every officer that is grinning about bagging a detector-protected driver with his instant-on there are a hundred drivers grinning as their detectors warn them of an "always-on" radar or the pulses of an instant-on as the officer is targeting another vehicle.

 

[k7lvo]

Love my V1!
Where the V1 really shines is with the arrows. Sometimes I get a signal and notice it's weak AND FROM THE REAR. No need to slow down because I know the signal is from the rear. If it was a weak signal from the front, then it could be one of those revenuers using instant on as they drive toward me and I best slow down. Those arrows are indispensable!

+1

After using a V-1 with directional arrows and the "bogey counter," I'd feel like I was blind-folded if I tried a model that just beeped and lit up.

 

[k7lvo]

...when you come over a hill and he is behind the tree. You hear a buzz and he already setting his coffee down for the chase...

Fortunately, your example is only one of the many possible scenarios. A radar detector, just like the radar, is only one tool out of many.

 

[EODSarge]

When instant-on radar is used in the moving mode, it still has to keep track of the speed of the patrol vehicle, which means that it has to transmit short bursts from time to time; if the patrol vehicle is changing speeds, the radar has to transmit more often. I haven't worked on radars for a while, so there may be newer models out there that don't calculate patrol vehicle speed until the operator activates the unit, but there are still plenty of the models in use that burp once in a while. (And there are still plenty of X-band radars in use, too, even by state police agencies, if Oregon is any example.)

I've never seen a radar unit that did that; and none of the units certified for use in Georgia do that. They don't transmit until the operator presses the button, period. X-band is "instant on" as well; the band (x, k, or ka) makes no difference as to whether or not the unit is "instant on" or not. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass by asking this; but what models operated like that?

In my experience there are MANY officers who patrol with the unit on, whatever the reason. When you think about it, how many drivers run radar detectors? How many drivers speed? A LEO can keep as busy as he wants to without "working" the radar. I figure that for every officer that is grinning about bagging a detector-protected driver with his instant-on there are a hundred drivers grinning as their detectors warn them of an "always-on" radar or the pulses of an instant-on as the officer is targeting another vehicle.

I don't doubt that there are lazy operators, I know there are. I never was and I teach my students not to be lazy, but yes, I know many of them will be. However- despite what the majority of people seem to think- I never operated radar or laser to generate revenue. I operated it to slow people down on the roadways where we had significant problems with injury accidents. If the guy with the radar detector is paying attention to his surroundings, notices that there are cops ahead and slows down, then he's doing better than the hundreds of others who drive with their heads up their ass and cause most of the wrecks. I'll let him go. But the one who doesn't even notice me sitting right out in the middle of the median, visible for a mile in each direction- well, then, press hard, five copies.

 

[Inlaw1]

So what are the congnescenti here running to keep the long arm of the seekers of revenue for the county at bay?

If you want the most popular because they seem to be the most efficient then your two choices are either the V1 or an Escort 8500 or 9500 (which is what I run). The added GPS feature of the 9500 is very nice for the frequent routes you may run and marking where the false signals are. Turns it into a very quite detector until there is radar present. It also doubles as a corrected speedometer or a volt meter.

Whichever you get, get the HARD unit as well. I also use the Skyway mount on top of the brake reservoir that was powder coated by Garauld.

Both units seem to offer the same protection (Escorts better), it just depends on what features you like. I find there seems to be two camps, those that want the directional arrows of the V1 (which do nothing for me), and those that don't (just want better coverage )

 

[k7lvo]

When instant-on radar is used in the moving mode, it still has to keep track of the speed of the patrol vehicle, which means that it has to transmit short bursts from time to time; if the patrol vehicle is changing speeds, the radar has to transmit more often. I haven't worked on radars for a while, so there may be newer models out there that don't calculate patrol vehicle speed until the operator activates the unit, but there are still plenty of the models in use that burp once in a while. (And there are still plenty of X-band radars in use, too, even by state police agencies, if Oregon is any example.)

I've never seen a radar unit that did that; and none of the units certified for use in Georgia do that. They don't transmit until the operator presses the button, period. X-band is "instant on" as well; the band (x, k, or ka) makes no difference as to whether or not the unit is "instant on" or not. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass by asking this; but what models operated like that?

I worked with Kustom Signals units. Like I said, it's been a while... The KR-10 and KR-11, as well as the Falcon and a couple of others. The KR-11 was a "maintenance intensive" unit, but the KR-10 was pretty solid; I'll bet there are a lot of them still on the road. I KNOW my V-1 has detected movers "sniffing" the patrol vehicle speed. How do your movers keep track of the patrol car speed? Do they have dual displays, one for the patrol car and one for the target vehicle?

I would not go so far as to say that a LEO who left the radar running was lazy. Some LEO's are more "enthusiastic" than others; some enjoy the "thrill of the hunt," while others just "do the job."

 

[eg23232]

The radar has to be transmitting to pick up the prowl car's speed. It uses an outer "lobe" of the beam to read the reflection back to the antenna off the pavement ahead (which is why an error occurs if the prowl car is too close to a car in front of it, as it picks up that car's speed). Otherwise, the radar is not transmitting at all, even in moving mode. This is true for Kustom units. While driving, the operator has the unit in "Standby" and most units have a wired remote with a switch that turns on the transmitter. Turn it on, radar radiates, picks up patrol speed off pavement, then gets reflection back from oncoming vehicle. Radar calculates closing speed and subtracts prowl car speed from that, giving the operator the oncoming vehicle's speed. Yes, there are two displays, one shows patrol speed, the other target speed. The operator has a "lock" button which locks those displays, if the operator so choses. Prowl car does turn and burn to hand out driving award.

 

[Flylooper]

You wrote:
I never operated radar or laser to generate revenue. I operated it to slow people down on the roadways where we had significant problems with injury accidents. If the guy with the radar detector is paying attention to his surroundings, notices that there are cops ahead and slows down, then he's doing better than the hundreds of others who drive with their heads up their ass and cause most of the wrecks. I'll let him go. But the one who doesn't even notice me sitting right out in the middle of the median, visible for a mile in each direction- well, then, press hard, five copies.

Surely it's dangerous to make a generalization. Dangerous for me to say all LEOs are in the business of making rain for the county or municipality he works in - just as it's equally dangerous to assume all LEOs are trying to slow traffic down, as you say you did.

Both statements have truth to them. Certain cities have been sued and lost for shortening yellow lights so cameras/LEOS can get cars pinched. Cops are no different than anyone else. They may be feeling a little aggressive on a given day or even a little laid back. And it affects how they approach their job, for sure.

I've had two instances of getting pinched in the last 30 years, once in San Francisco when I was tagged by a moto cop for crossing over a center line and on to some cable car tracks when he was parked a half a block away on a street perpendicular to the one I was driving on! The second time was about five years ago on the way to work in Salem, OR and I was pinched for running a red light in the rain. In both cases I was absolutely, positively innocent and I protested vigorouly to the judge, and won both cases. I was mad as a wet hornet!

In my case...at the very beginning of this thread...if you would have seen the conditions of the road, traffic and weather that particular day, you would have said yourself that no LEO was working that stretch of the highway to slow people down. It was a trap. plain and simple. (I'm not angry. It's a risk I assume when I goose the throttle.)

A good radar detector at least lengthens the odds of getting nailed some. It may not even them up, but it's better than no detector at all, especially a good one. After two ticket avoidances, I figure the thing paid for itself.

 

[painman]

V1, never let me down. Just remember, when you see 'em with laser guns, you're screwed. Slow down or pay. No R/D out there will help you with laser.

Seems like this has come up before. I use the Escort X50 and usually if "your" lasered your dead. But where a quality unit like the Valentine or Escort come into play is if the gentleman, I'll just call him that for now, (just kidding), holding that laser/lidar unit is using it on other mis-unfortunate uh um, speeders, a quality unit as these will pick up this activity well before you get your turn. "That" is the advantage of a quality unit. Don't waste your money on anything other than the Valentine, Escort, or Beltronics IMO. PM. <><

 

[k7lvo]

The radar has to be transmitting to pick up the prowl car's speed. It uses an outer "lobe" of the beam to read the reflection back to the antenna off the pavement ahead (which is why an error occurs if the prowl car is too close to a car in front of it, as it picks up that car's speed). Otherwise, the radar is not transmitting at all, even in moving mode. This is true for Kustom units. While driving, the operator has the unit in "Standby" and most units have a wired remote with a switch that turns on the transmitter. Turn it on, radar radiates, picks up patrol speed off pavement, then gets reflection back from oncoming vehicle. Radar calculates closing speed and subtracts prowl car speed from that, giving the operator the oncoming vehicle's speed. Yes, there are two displays, one shows patrol speed, the other target speed. The operator has a "lock" button which locks those displays, if the operator so choses. Prowl car does turn and burn to hand out driving award.

So, in the current units, the patrol speed is not displayed until the operator switches out of Standby?

Also, I seem to remember that the radar expects to see a certain speed/doppler range for patrol speed vs. closing speed, (obviously, the patrol speed - and the doppler - is going to be roughly half the rate of the closing speed) and has band filters to direct the correct doppler to the appropriate displays.