Retrofit ABS to Gen I FJR

[bluesdog]

You know someone is giving serious thought to the fact that a Ninja is now available with a blower. Why not.....?Who's up to it?

Go nitrous, or go home!

 

[Madmudder]

Heck, if ABS really worked and if traction control really worked it would be on race bikes.

Oh wait, but it is!

But you already knew that, you crafty Professor, you.

And when it fails it is mess that is totally unexpected!

 

[ionbeam]

Heck, if ABS really worked and if traction control really worked it would be on race bikes.

Oh wait, but it is!

But you already knew that, you crafty Professor, you.

And when it fails it is mess that is totally unexpected!

For sure, live your life expecting the 0.001% failure rate is going to be the very next time you use your brakes. It's out to get ya, its got eyes, ears and an attitude. Look at the statics about accidents without OEM ABS and the accidents because ABS didn't work.

BTW, there is an asteroid, bolt of lightning and large part of an airplane going to land on you in the next 10 minutes. Unless there is a nuclear bomb that hits first just before a gamma ray burst and a solar storm particle wave washes over us first.

Never, ever trust those devious ABS brakes.

 

[Hornet Pilot]

No ABS on Formula 1 cars!!!

No Traction Control on Formula 1 cars!!!

 

[ionbeam]

No ABS on Formula 1 cars!!!

No Traction Control on Formula 1 cars!!!

Is this not a motorcycle forum? Really. Please check up on mcyl tech.

 

[wfooshee]

Many, if not most, of the ABS failures in car accidents can be at least partially attributed to the fact that in the panic situation, when ABS kicked in, which would have been the first time the driver ever experienced it, the noise and buzzing and pumping and vibrating scared the shit out of them and they let go of everything with a "What the **** was THAT??!!??!" feeling,

I saw it happen when I took someone out to drive their new car and MADE them experience ABS so they'd know what it was. They let go of all the controls and asked me, "What the **** just happened??!!?"

I find it very hard to imagine how anyone can actually prefer going through life without knowing the limits of the machinery, and what they can expect as they approach or exceed those limits. In my mind, not knowing that bit of information is as dangerous as carrying gasoline in an open bucket in one side of the back seat floor and a burning hibachi grill in the other side, as witnessed by what happens to people when they experience those limits for the first time in an emergency, possibly life-or-death situation.

It doesn't help that most folks think ABS is a magic technology that makes the brakes work better and stop harder, rather than the truth, which is that ABS works by releasing the brakes. You don't skid, but you go farther.....

 

[Fred W]

Heck, if ABS really worked and if traction control really worked it would be on race bikes.

Oh wait, but it is!

But you already knew that, you crafty Professor, you.

And when it fails it is mess that is totally unexpected!

Do you have any statistics on the frequency of that ever happening? Would you say, in round numbers, that it was more or less than 1% of all fatal motorcycle crashes that were caused by an ABS malfunction? Way less, I would speculate.

Here's a statistical study done in 2013 by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety where they find that ABS was associated with a 37 percent reduction in fatal motorcycle crashes (with a 95 percent confidence interval). I don't know, but this seems statistically significant to me.

So, would you forgo a 1 in 3 improvement in your emergency braking to avoid a less than 1 in 100 chance of a system failure?

We do all get to make our own choices.

 

[Rain Dancer]

Rain, that is an idea, but I've decided to pass on this. Curious why you like *not* having ABS?

I have ridden bikes with it, and agree it can be a great safety feature. However, I raced many years, practice braking regularly, and find an awful lot of folks that have ABS depend on it over using skill.

Also, I missed hitting a deer by locking the rear brake and sliding the bike into a different direction (like a dirt bike). I also like to mod my bikes. Change to a radial MC, etc.....so easier for me.

 

[Gitbox]

The safety feature is what makes it so important for me. I watched a video of an ABS equipped bike where the rider smashed his brakes on wet pavement and came straight to a controlled stop. If I panic braked on a wet road, I would be down for sure. Locking my rear wheel happens more often than I like even on dry roads.

Do you ABS equipped guys regularly test the ABS system, as in attempting to lock the rear wheel on grass or wet road? Front wheel too? I do that on my four wheel vehicles just to make sure it's still working. Now that I think of it, there may be a built in test that is accessed from the instrument panel, but nothing is like the good ole dynamic test.

 

[ionbeam]

...Do you ABS equipped guys regularly test the ABS system, as in attempting to lock the rear wheel on grass or wet road? Front wheel too? I do that on my four wheel vehicles just to make sure it's still working. Now that I think of it, there may be a built in test that is accessed from the instrument panel, but nothing is like the good ole dynamic test.

There is a way to test the brakes, the procedure is here.

The reason you are testing your brakes is because there is a chance they aren't working. Finding that out on the center stand in your garage is probably better than finding out by grabbing the front brake on sand or grass. There is a minimum ABS activation speed of ~6 mph.

 

[mcatrophy]

...Do you ABS equipped guys regularly test the ABS system, as in attempting to lock the rear wheel on grass or wet road? Front wheel too? I do that on my four wheel vehicles just to make sure it's still working. Now that I think of it, there may be a built in test that is accessed from the instrument panel, but nothing is like the good ole dynamic test.

I test mine occasionally, usually on a dry road. Far more predictable if for any reason it doesn't work, particularly on the front. Occasionally I "accidentally" test them, usually on a slippery surface, once or twice while leaning over a bit, though so far never when cornering hard.
Very good write-up of ABS here.

 

[TomInPA]

Do you ABS equipped guys regularly test the ABS system, as in attempting to lock the rear wheel on grass or wet road? Front wheel too? I do that on my four wheel vehicles just to make sure it's still working. Now that I think of it, there may be a built in test that is accessed from the instrument panel, but nothing is like the good ole dynamic test.

Screw testing! I put the bike into ABS mode all the time with my heavy brake foot and excessive speed. Seriously, rarely a ride day goes by that the ABS is not triggered at least once, and usually more.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Test it all the time. Those GenI losers with their failing ABS blocks have me convinced that if I use it, it will move enough fluid to keep things happy.

Just ride it down the road and hit the brakes like you're serious. Then you'll know how it reacts and never be surprised.

 

[Uncle Hud]

Gitbox posted: <snip> Do you ABS equipped guys regularly test the ABS system .....

I live in metro Atlanta and often ride to work. My ABS gets tested at least once a week. Wouldn't trade it for the world.

 

[Rain Dancer]

Here's a statistical study done in 2013 by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety where they find that ABS was associated with a 37 percent reduction in fatal motorcycle crashes (with a 95 percent confidence interval). I don't know, but this seems statistically significant to me.
So, would you forgo a 1 in 3 improvement in your emergency braking to avoid a less than 1 in 100 chance of a system failure?

We do all get to make our own choices.

When I took statistics in college, teacher told us "figure out what you want to prove, then make a study to get those results." Would actually LEARNING to ride well have had the same effect instead of building to the lowest common denominator? ABS is a great safety feature, no doubt. But as I see proved in this thread, (and on many other forums/threads) people depend on it over skill. In the same vein, sensors in autos that monitor your blind spot. Great aid for safety, but now people depend on it and are causing accidents. (ABS equipped cars, when it first came out, were actually involved in more accidents. People believed it would "save" their butts and drove accordingly.) For me, if you need your ABS brakes once a week, you really should revisit either your skill, or your riding habits. My next new bike will have ABS, but I will continue to ride and practice as if it doesn't. I still love the thrill of riding well and skillfully over riding with brute force.

Fred W....this response was not an attack on you! Just used the study you posted. As you said, and I agree completely, we do get to make our own choices.

Back to Gitbox....darn....I was looking forward to following this mod!

 

[HotRodZilla]

Yeah...Reminds me of my Father-in-law. He refused to wear a seat belt because he claimed he was once in a crash where he was told, "If you had been wearing a seat belt you would have been killed." We clean up wrecks all the time, caused by people who believe they are full of skill, when they are actually full of something else. Anyone who depends on technology to save them isn't very smart. Just as anyone that won't accept the technology so that it can help when circumstances overload ability, isn't very smart either. Personally, I hate being on the road with either driver because they are both so pompous they have no idea how bad they actually drive/ride.

 

[BlacknWhite23]

Back in the day when I was a police officer, we actually pulled the fuse on the ABS on our squad cars. The EVOC (emergency vehicle operations course) instructors said that they did that so that when our ABS failed we would still know how to drive. I know that this does not have much to do with MC other that the fact that technology can and will fail if you push it hard enough. We did indeed put those old crown vics to the test too. I had more times where I experienced brake fade because of excessive braking, and the ABS said, I am done, you are on your own...

I love my ABS on my bike. I try not to test it very often when riding, however I am glad it is there. Those are my thoughts...

 

[HotRodZilla]

Back in the day when I was a police officer, we actually pulled the fuse on the ABS on our squad cars. The EVOC (emergency vehicle operations course) instructors said that they did that so that when our ABS failed we would still know how to drive. I know that this does not have much to do with MC other that the fact that technology can and will fail if you push it hard enough. We did indeed put those old crown vics to the test too. I had more times where I experienced brake fade because of excessive braking, and the ABS said, I am done, you are on your own...
I love my ABS on my bike. I try not to test it very often when riding, however I am glad it is there. Those are my thoughts...

Haha...I remember that. We were taught to "stab" the pedal and release. This was back when ABS was very rudimentary and supposedly, our quick "stab and release" method would "confuse" the ABS. Maybe, maybe not, but I know that as time has passed, we have way less crashes related to over-braking issues than we used to. Now we have crashes related to our MDTs, phones, and good 'ol HUA.

Our ABS has been very good for years, but is super advanced now. Now my unit downshifts to assist slowing and brakes certain wheels independently. It's kind of cool, but it takes getting used to. What's funny is that even with all the new gizmos, me and the other old-school drivers smoke the young kids at the track all the time. They depend solely on the tech, and we know how to make the car work. Still, having the technology enhances our abilities. I'm much faster, on the track, in my Explorer than I ever was in my Crown Vic, and even my Mustang. The ability to brake and corner cannot be stressed enough, and is easily as important as acceleration ability.

That's what I was getting at earlier: have the ability to ride without the help, most of the time, but don't be afraid to use it when it's needed. I test my ABS on almost every ride, usually as I'm leaving my street. The few times I've needed it, I've known exactly what to expect and can use it to its max capability. That's way better than freaking out and letting up because I don't know what will happen. Like anything else we want to be good at, we have to practice!

 

[mcatrophy]

...: have the ability to ride without the help, most of the time, but don't be afraid to use it when it's needed. I test my ABS on almost every ride, usually as I'm leaving my street. The few times I've needed it, I've known exactly what to expect and can use it to its max capability. That's way better than freaking out and letting up because I don't know what will happen. Like anything else we want to be good at, we have to practice!

Agree up to a point. If your ABS activates, you can get just a little better retardation if you can back off a bit so the the ABS is just not activating. I've this done on one occasion to advantage, on a greasy road of varying grip a car's wheel trim was rolling across my lane one way then blowing back again. There was traffic on the lanes either side. I could feel the onset of ABS and was able to more or less modulate my front brake on the edge of ABS judder. (The back brake was hard on, presumably ABS firmly in place; I'm not a woman, I can only deal with one thing at a time.) Only real worry was the surrounding traffic, particularly what was behind, but all turned out well. That's the sort of occasion when knowing exactly how your vehicle's ABS behaves is well worth while. In a sense, that's almost the same as holding the brake on the limit of tyre adhesion on a non-ABS brake, and retardation would be the same. The big advantage of ABS is that, as the road slipperiness varies, you have the confidence to continue braking as hard as possible, even if that exceeds your personal skill level, you have that safety net.
I can still remember driving my first car with ABS. I'd never experienced it, had occasion to slam on the brakes when a bus pulled across in front of me. The road surface was a little broken up, the ABS kicked in, I nearly had a heart attack with the violent judder that that early ABS implementation gave. I can certainly understand why some drivers might release the brakes thinking their car was about to disintegrate.

Anyway, I'm in the "I'd never have a bike that doesn't have ABS" camp, I will continue to regularly check it functions, and be happy I have it (but hope never to really need it).

 

[Fred W]

Here's a statistical study done in 2013 by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety where they find that ABS was associated with a 37 percent reduction in fatal motorcycle crashes (with a 95 percent confidence interval). I don't know, but this seems statistically significant to me.

So, would you forgo a 1 in 3 improvement in your emergency braking to avoid a less than 1 in 100 chance of a system failure?

We do all get to make our own choices.

When I took statistics in college, teacher told us "figure out what you want to prove, then make a study to get those results."

So, are you saying that we should ignore all statistical studies then? Just go with first hand experiences, gut feelings and conjecture?

Would actually LEARNING to ride well have had the same effect instead of building to the lowest common denominator?

Probably not. "Learning to ride well" would mean that you NEVER reach the point where the ABS would even activate. You would never put yourself into that position. My take is not that they are building ABS to protect the inept rider, but rather they are protecting any rider, even the most skilled, when put into an extreme situation.

The "ABS vs Skill" argument is not a particularly new one, nor limited to 2 wheel vehicles. It is easy to show that a non-ABS braking system can slightly outperform ABS in optimum conditions, when tire adhesion is uniform and predictable. The advantage of having a computer (which can think faster and more accurately than a human) electronically monitoring wheel slip and intervening when you've gone too far is mostly in circumstances that your brain, and your eyes are not capable of interpreting adequately.

Yes, by all means everyone should ride or drive like they don't have ABS. Only a complete fool would do otherwise. That is, right up until the point where you have gone too far and the ABS does activate, and then you have to be confident, practiced, and aware enough of the ABS functionality to use it correctly.

ABS is a great safety feature, no doubt. But as I see proved in this thread, (and on many other forums/threads) people depend on it over skill. In the same vein, sensors in autos that monitor your blind spot. Great aid for safety, but now people depend on it and are causing accidents. (ABS equipped cars, when it first came out, were actually involved in more accidents. People believed it would "save" their butts and drove accordingly.) For me, if you need your ABS brakes once a week, you really should revisit either your skill, or your riding habits. My next new bike will have ABS, but I will continue to ride and practice as if it doesn't. I still love the thrill of riding well and skillfully over riding with brute force.

I don't know anyone who "depends" on their ABS once a week, and I can't imagine where you got the information that ABS systems (or the new blind spot warning systems) have "caused" accidents when they were new technology. Was it from a statistical study, perhaps?

Some riders may intentionally activate their ABS weekly, or maybe even more often, but that doesn't mean that they are "depending" on it. There is a significant difference in that.

Fred W....this response was not an attack on you! Just used the study you posted. As you said, and I agree completely, we do get to make our own choices.

Understood, and I agree. Debate is a valuable utility when it can be maintained without undue emotion. There is seldom a question that is so black and white that is beyond rational discussion and debate. Debate gets things out in the open so everyone can consider and make their own decisions. What could be wrong with that?

FWIW, in the last bit there you said that you "used the study" I posted a link to, but I don't see where you used it at all in your argument. You merely tried to discredit the study because it is statistical, which is fine. There have been many other studies that have been done experimentally, rather than statistically, and they all show that in adverse conditions the ABS results in shorter and more consistent stopping distances.

If I boil down your argument (and paraphrase) I think that your position is that a well trained and highly skilled rider (such as yourself) will always be able to outperform an ABS equipped one.

My position is: ...not always.