Rider shot in the back

[tcfjr]

From an article in the Toledo Blade:

Ottawa Hills police officer guilty in traffic-stop shooting
A jury found an Ottawa Hills police officer guilty Friday night of felonious assault with a firearms specification for a shooting during a traffic stop last year.

The case went to the jury on the fourth day of Officer Thomas White's trial for felonious assault with a firearms specification in the shooting of Michael McCloskey, Jr.

...

 

[Wee Willy]

That cop's going down. The community will probably be paying this unfortunate fellow too. We pay these folks big salaries and provide them expensive training to ensure they wait that extra second or two just to be sure...didn't work too well here. What a tragedy for all involved.

W2

 

[RenoJohn]

I hate the fuzz

 

[Deacon51]

I have no information other than what was posted on the links here, but I'm guessing that the officer was carrying a Glock.

I believe that light trigger and built in trigger safety are leading to an increase in things like this. It's a shame to blame the officer, with out looking at the training and equipment he was given.

 

[exskibum]

I have no information other than what was posted on the links here, but I'm guessing that the officer was carrying a Glock. I believe that light trigger and built in trigger safety are leading to an increase in things like this. It's a shame to blame the officer, with out looking at the training and equipment he was given.

Well, a Glock is still a DAO, so even with light trigger for a DAO, it's still double action pull. Now, were it a 1911, carried cocked, SA only, I'd be more inclined to believe an accidental discharge. Not saying it couldn't happen, or didn't, with a Glock -- just hard to believe anyone would shoot intentionally in that situation.

 

[gregory]

I have no information other than what was posted on the links here, but I'm guessing that the officer was carrying a Glock. I believe that light trigger and built in trigger safety are leading to an increase in things like this. It's a shame to blame the officer, with out looking at the training and equipment he was given.

Would you like this guy pulling you over in a similar situation? Cop was wrong in every aspect. He had backup on scene and one rider was already down. As others have pointed out, he failed to follow proceedures (PA ect) Hope he get put in with the general population!

 

[FJRGuy]

I hate the fuzz

Present company excepted! B) (edit: Not referring to myself, I'm not a cop, but to the fine law enforcement professionals on this forum. )

I have no information other than what was posted on the links here, but I'm guessing that the officer was carrying a Glock. I believe that light trigger and built in trigger safety are leading to an increase in things like this. It's a shame to blame the officer, with out looking at the training and equipment he was given.

Guns don't shoot people, Cops shoot people!

While training and equipment always need consideration, the officer is always ultimately responsible for his actions.

To me, what you said is like saying that one of us laying down our bike is Yamaha's fault.

Also, Glad to see a guilt verdict but I hope there is a civil suit. Ex-officer white needs to be paying hard for this, whether the victim is a criminal or not (not suggesting he is a criminal, just sayin')

 

[Wee Willy]

Also, Glad to see a guilt verdict but I hope there is a civil suit. Ex-officer white needs to be paying hard for this...

Don't think Officer Ed White will pay much at all beyond his salary, his vacation to the big house and whatever loss of opportunity he faces down the road. It will be the good folks of Ottowa Falls who pay this bill...color of authority & all that. Such are the socialized costs of hiring cops with itchy trigger fingers these days.

W2

 

[phroenips]

Well, a Glock is still a DAO, so even with light trigger for a DAO, it's still double action pull.

<Hijack>

It's not really a DAO (despite their marketing claiming otherwise), if it were, then in the case of a misfire, you'd be able to pull the trigger again and the firing pin would strike again. This is not the case...you have to rack the slide to re-****.

</Hijack>

 

[user 213]

Well, a Glock is still a DAO, so even with light trigger for a DAO, it's still double action pull.

<Hijack>

It's not really a DAO (despite their marketing claiming otherwise), if it were, then in the case of a misfire, you'd be able to pull the trigger again and the firing pin would strike again. This is not the case...you have to rack the slide to re-****.

</Hijack>

Gunny. It's a striker based design, not hammer and sear. The only safety feature on the bulk of Glocks is a small trigger shoe style trigger block that takes only a few ounces to defeat. It's only intended purpose is so that the trigger will not be moved unless a finger is on it. Virtually all LEOs using Glocks, (and most others), are trained to use a strait finger draw, in part to avoid an AD, and to only have a finger on the trigger when firing in imminent.

FWIW, the Glock pistol design was intended to never be carried with a round in the chamber, except when in actual combat. This was a good feature for the Austrian Army, which hasn't seen combat in a rather along time. Anyone that's ever served in the Military knows that ammo and pistols don't go together in garrison, with the sole exception of MPs and some guard situations. Many guards are not allowed to insert a magazine even until there is a perceivable threat.

If you're reading this and carry a Glock, your life is worth more. Go buy a Sig. NOW. Don't argue, don't rationalize, kiss your loved one(s) and go spend the money so you have a better chance of surviving an encounter.

 

[exskibum]

My centerfire semi autos are a Sig and 2 Berettas. Wasn't aware that you had to rack the slide to **** the striker again on a Glock misfire (or dry fire too, obviously).

To FJRGuy's point -- we're not blaming the gun for shooting someone, only addressing the very real circumstance of body alarm reaction for someone in that situation and how it can lead to an accidental discharge. Under max stress in a lethal situation, with a huge dose of adrenalin messing with your fine motor skills, judgment, etc., sensitive trigger mechanisms may not be the best choice -- because an accidental discharge is far more likely with a lighter, shorter pull trigger.

The fact is that there seems to be no way that the cop should have had his finger ON the trigger in that situation, but obviously he did. I'd like to hear what defense his lawyer presented.

 

[SouthernCruizer]

I dont know...after seeing the video, I can see where the cop may have thought that the biker had something in his right hand. The dash cam had a better view than the officer, and it still looks unclear why his right hand was down by his front pocket or waist band and it also looks a little strange how he twisted to the right to look back at the cop.

Yet another reason to NOT run from cops. These kinds of things would be reduced if people did the right thing and stopped when ordered.

 

[UweRoss]

Unless he's a circus-quality contortionist, there's no way he could have brought a gun to bear on the officer by turning in the direction that he did while still sitting on his bike.

The jury agreed; they convicted him of felonious assault late on Friday:

https://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/...aspx?id=457181

Lastly, stopping within 10 seconds of being lit up does not constitute a "run".

-Uwe-

 

[wfooshee]

Lastly, stopping within 10 seconds of being lit up does not constitute a "run".

I was just fixing to say that.

Also, I'm not sure they weren't just a bit nervous being followed for so long. At that stop sign they turned back and looked, but could they tell it was a LEO, or did they just see headlights?

That conversation could have been:

Dude, who the #%%$ is this, following us through this place for this long?

I dunno, but it's giving me the creeps. Let's ditch him.

Yeah.

Or:

Dude, if that cop stops us we're done for. I have seven warrants and you're carrying the pot.

Let's head for the hills.

Yeah.

Still, at the time of the shooting the guy is just sitting there waiting, looking back at the car where he expects the cop to come from. All he sees is lights, and without the audio we don't know if he's being given any instructions or not.

 

[UweRoss]

I believe the riders testified in court that they thought it was a friend of theirs following them.

The rider who was shot was indeed given instructions to put his hands up, but the cop had failed to turn off his siren -- something which is supposed to be standard procedure precisely so the cop's instructions can be heard.

I have no problem with anyone, including a cop, who shoots someone in self-defense, but there's NFW this qualifies.

-Uwe-

 

[SkooterG]

I hate the fuzz

Me too.

 

[madmike2]

I hate the fuzz

Me too.

:rofl:

:rofl:

:rofl:

 

[ponyfool]

I hate the fuzz

Me too.

:rofl:

:rofl:

:rofl:

I had a bad caterer one time, so I hate all caterers now.

I have had bad experiences with waiters a few times, so I hate all waiters now too.

My garbage man left some garbage on the street after emptying my trash can, so they all must not give a **** about their job either, so I hate them all too.

As a 20+ year cop, I refrained from weighing in on this one because I didn't have any of the facts. I will say that the jury hopefully had all the facts, and they judged the officer, and found him liable, which is good, because I do believe that those that are culpable should be held accountable.

However, just to give a slightly different perspective, and not necessarily on this case. About 4 or 5 years ago, we had an officer here in Portland shoot an unarmed black male in his car. In January, we had another officer shoot an unarmed black male in the back. Both of these officers were cleared, and many in the community were screaming the same things that are being said here, "There was no justification", "There's no way he could have pulled a gun in that direction", etc.

Officers are trained in nearly every community that if they wait until they see a gun, it is too late. In the above cases, unlike in the case from Toledo where the officer was found guilty, the subjects were actively reaching for something. The investigations later showed that the first unarmed subject was trying to swallow his crack cocaine (apparently trying to hide it from the officer) and in the second case, the subject was either reaching for where he had been beanbagged, or he was trying to make it look like he had a gun since he told others earlier that he wanted the police to kill him.

My point in all of this is, just this last week, several officers in Portland stopped a subject who refused to follow commands. He was Tasered twice and still wouldn't comply. The entire incident was on video (not very clear though). In the video, you can clearly hear the Taser followed by an officer yelling something like, "He's going for something, he's going for something." All of our training indicates that the officers should have fired right then, right there. But because no cop wants to be the cop crucified for shooting an unarmed black male, no one fired. This time, they waited until they saw the gun. But, it was too late. The subject wasn't hiding crack or faking it, this time he DID have a gun, and he ended up shooting an officer twice (thankfully not life threatening).

For those that don't deal with this on a daily basis in an effort to stay alive till the end of your shift, I will remind you, it is IMPOSSIBLE for any person, trained or otherwise, to overcome the action/reaction time delay when it relates to waiting to see if the person is going for a gun, identifying it is a gun, and then reacting before the person shoots you. As I mentioned, I am not necessarily commenting on this case, because even had the officer been giving commands for the person to put his hands up, this guy never moved. The officer should have waited until he made a movement that was contrary to what he was being directed. But this entire notion that a person can't fire a weapon from that position, give me a break.

Here are a couple of videos to show you some of what these hated police officers have to deal with when making these decisions:

Portland shooting where officer is heard saying "He's going for something"

A training video reenactment that looks completely unjustified until you actually READ and see WHY the subject was shot

How anyone can produce a gun from anywhere and shoot. Once video loads, go to 1:00 minute mark to start.

 

[ShinyPartsUp]

Ponyfool,

I'll start with: I respect policemen generally. I also haven't weighed in on the case because there are always unpublished facts. The jury made the decision this officer shouldn't have had the job. It's a shame nobody else figured that out sooner.

You argue that lay people have no idea what an officer's job entails and what it takes to finish your shift. That I will agree with. But the reality is that if police want a better public image, they need to start weeding out the bad cops themselves and shaping up/retraining the marginal ones.

In medicine it is a similar situation with doctors, nurses, pharmacists, etc. The perception is it takes a near act of congress to revoke a bad doctor's (insert profession here) license to practice, and the public is frustrated with the self-policing of the profession. It is human nature not to address and correct one of your own.

I'm not going to get deeply into the thin blue line argument, because it always ends up as an emotional argument with no end and reeks of political agendas on both sides.

But I will nitpick one of the popular red herring arguments brought up by your response that is frequently used.

You wrote:

"I had a bad caterer one time, so I hate all caterers now.

I have had bad experiences with waiters a few times, so I hate all waiters now too.

My garbage man left some garbage on the street after emptying my trash can, so they all must not give a **** about their job either, so I hate them all too. "

If I hire a caterer I get to ask folks who had previously hired them, research on-line and generally choose who I hire. If they turn out to be awful, shame on me.

If I get a bad waitress, I leave a lousy tip, complain to a manager or have other recourse that will not involve a risk of censure/arrest against me. Either service improves, or eventually word gets around and the waiter or restaurant goes belly up.

If a trash man (My uncle was a trash man for many years and raised five kids while doing it. I respect the tough job they have), then I can complain to city hall and perhaps something happens about it. Or I can vote my displeasure in the next election. I can even write a letter to the editor.

If I complain to an officer about his actions, suddenly charges can be trumped up or exaggerated against me. This means expense, time and angst to fight the falsehoods. If I complain to his Sargent, the perception is it goes nowhere (I never have done that, so I do not personally know what would happen). If I file a complaint then cops harass me (Sorry, but it has happened to three people I know -- they can't drive without getting pulled over in a couple jurisdictions now). Cops close ranks.

My position on those comparisons you used, is that they are not equivalent examples at all.

So when a policeman pulls me over on a motorcycle or any other time, yes I feel vulnerable in a way that I never do with a waiter, bank teller, garbage man, or other examples such as you used. That vulnerability is a reality because there are too many mediocre policemen out there who literally can ruin my life in an instant. I am always professional and polite. Once I see they are professional and treat me with respect I relax. I have the highest respect for good cops, just as I do for other professions. I have disdain for lousy ones, just as I have disdain for lousy nurse practitioners (I picked that profession because it is my profession).

I hope this is taken in the spirit written. I am not writing with vitriol.

 

[SouthernCruizer]

I know that when I think a "Friend" is following me, I take off so fast that I crash over a curb.