Rider shot in the back

[SkooterG]

Uhhhh.....my reply was meant to be tongue in cheek. I knew many would not get it, but MM2 sure did. :clapping:

Horrendous situation for all involved, and one I did not want to delve into too seriously.

I agree with many of your points PF, but not all. While the video does not tell the whole story, from watching it, it sure is hard to imagine any scenario where the shooting was justified imho. But all that matters is what the jury thought, and they have spoke. Either way, no winners. A guy paralyzed for life for doing practically nothing wrong, and a cop who most likely meant well in the great scheme of things whose life and that of his family are irrevocably changed for the worse.

Also, I am a bit out of date, but in my training with two agencies, I was never trained that to wait and see a gun it is too late. On the contrary, I was trained that you had better damn well make sure there is a gun (or genuine threat of deadly force) before using your own. Perhaps that is the problem. As an aside, I vividly recall in a shoot vs. no shoot training video, wrongly shooting 'Freddy the Flasher' in a scenario that set up the trainee pretty damn good. Even though I was in good company in that it was a much failed scenario, it was a lesson I'll never forget.

 

[200cs]

This whole post is disturbing to me. I would just like to add my .02 with a disclaimer. I am not a cop but I do carry a Glock with a CHL. The bottom line is that pistol should have never come out of the holster. Deadly force is only allowed to stop potential life threatening situations and its the same rules for any one permitted to carry - police or not.

The police department hired a bad one and now the whole community will pay for their mistake especially the young man who is now in a wheel chair for life. This whole case just stinks!

 

[Jeff Q]

I am not defending the cop here cause the video does look bad, but I would like to share a couple points.

1. I was never trained to wait to see the gun is too late, but it is true in many cases. Try this with your buddy. Get two toy guns or POSITIVELY unloaded weapons. One of you be the cop and the other the bad guy. Have the cop hold his weapon out in front of him and ready with it. Have the bad guy hold his hand with the gun behind his leg where it cant be seen. Then have the bad guy pull it and shoot and see if you as the cop can react in time to stop the threat. We did this in the academy and I was very surprised at the outcome. At best you get a tie, in most cases the cop get shot before he can get a round off. Part of the job I know...I don't think it was the case in this video but I do wonder what the biker was reaching for. The video rarely shows the whole story. My department has a very cool firearms simulator and I learned allot there. A cop has to be able to see your hands, if he can't then you are putting yourself and them at risk. Again not justifying the shooting just trying to educate those who don't know.

2. There is no such thing as a routine traffic stop, if you get to thinking that way its time for a new job. One of the most dangerous things we do every day, you just never know who you are pulling over. Could be some gun wielding murdering psycho and you just pulled him over to warn him his tail light was out and he needed to get it fixed but he knows what he did....

3. I don't think the Glock has a light trigger especially on the first pull. On the second pull using trigger reset it is lighter. I believe the factory trigger is 5.5-6lbs of pull.

4. I do think that cops should be and are held to a higher standard. In the end they are people too and not everyone is suited to the job.

5. Lastly I don't think you can REALLY know what you would do unless you are placed in that situation. Cops who have good officer safety skills constantly play the what if game in their head, mental war games if you will. Hopefully the situation is one you were already thinking about but you can't plan for everything.

 

[Windjammer]

I'm not a cop, and never trained to be one. I've gotten plenty of "revenue gathering" performance awards over the years, so I'm not one who has much reason to like cops. Thus I'm an odd choice to play devil's advocate in this case.

It was a bad shoot. Little doubt of that.

However, I bet that cop didn't leave his home that day thinking "I'm gonna shoot the first thing that moves wrong today". Probably quite the opposite. In the space of 30 seconds or less he made serious errors that will negatively impact the lives of the biker, himself and his family, for a LONG time. He'll lose a LOT from this, and as long as he lives he'll probably beat himself up thinking about how much he'd like to go back and change those 30 seconds. "If only I could do it over..."

I've had a time or two in my life when I wished I could go back and do something differently. I'm only lucky that in my case the stakes were much lower.

So say a prayer for the biker and his family. Say one for the cop and his too.

 

[Happy Rider]

This is a horrible situation that maybe could have been avoided. Maybe through better training, experience and possibly the officer selection process. I see this as an unintentional accident and not an intent crime. Police officers are not supper heroes and make mistakes all of the time. Unfortunately their mistakes can often mean the difference between life and death. That is, the life of the suspect or the life of the officer.

The public should be educated on how to behave around law enforcement when they are stopped. It is very common for people to reach under seats and conceal their hands while talking to an officer. They reach into concealed containers and exhibit all kinds of furtive movements that could be construed as hostile. Then they act surprised when they are looking down the barrel of a pistol. This does not alway give an officer the right to shoot, but it does create an unsafe situation for both officer and suspect.

This could have been avoided if the motorcyclists did not drive off at a very high rate of speed, giving the officer the perception that they were indeed running for some unknown reason. The rider could have also not concealed his hands. I don't buy it that these guys did not know that a cop was behind them. They were at a stop, less than 10 feet from the patrol vehicle, looking back. Lights or no lights, I can easily see who is behind me when I'm stopped and I look back behind my vehicle. Again, I don't have all of the facts but I find it disturbing that so many people have such disdain for the officer. I just can't imagine that he did this on purpose. The whole situation sucks for everybody.

Just to put this in perspective, do you think our brave Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors, and Marines should be treated this way every time someone has a negligent discharge, a pilot lights up the wrong vehicle, or we drop ordinance on the wrong target? It’s the same thing. Like it or not sometimes there is collateral damage. It sucks but it is going to happen in an armed society.

BTW, I like guns and think all honest people should have many.

 

[ahchiu]

I believe the riders testified in court that they thought it was a friend of theirs following them.
The rider who was shot was indeed given instructions to put his hands up, but the cop had failed to turn off his siren -- something which is supposed to be standard procedure precisely so the cop's instructions can be heard.

I have no problem with anyone, including a cop, who shoots someone in self-defense, but there's NFW this qualifies.

-Uwe-

+1, The cop kept the siren on and he could not hear the cops instructions, the cop should have turned off the siren and used the loud speakers to instruct the rider. He will meet a lot of Harley riders in jail and be somesone bitch.

 

[Braenen]

Happy_Rider, if the police consider themselves at war with the general population then we seriously need to change our training programs and possibly our police force entirely. They are enpowered to Serve and Protect, not use force in a military manner. There simply is no comparison between a military action and police enforcement.

 

[Jeff Q]

The "general population" does not have to talk to or deal with the police much, it is a small percentage of people who have no concern for anyone but themselves. If you are blissfully unaware of a war on crime going on every day then the general population and law enforcement must be working together and doing a good job by you.

 

[Happy Rider]

Happy_Rider, if the police consider themselves at war with the general population then we seriously need to change our training programs and possibly our police force entirely. They are enpowered to Serve and Protect, not use force in a military manner. There simply is no comparison between a military action and police enforcement.

I think you misunderstood my statement or I didn't say it clearly. I do not believe that the police consider themselves at war with the general population. I am only saying that many people expect perfection when they judge the actions of a police officer. The vast majority of police officers go about their duties with diligence, honor, pride, and strive to provide the best service humanly possible. The same can be said about military personnel. Generally police officers work alone, in less than ideal situations, tasked to make split second decisions, often with life and death outcomes. I have served in the military and in law enforcement for over 19 years. I have seen both military and police personnel make mistakes. The police and the military use many of the same tactics. Mistakes are bound to happen when operating in an unpredictable environment. Add weapons and the human factor to the equation and people are bound to get hurt or killed. It is unfortunate but inevitable and should rarely result in a jail sentance for the police officer or solider. If the action in question is determined to be an intent crime or there was malice or extreme negligence then it is a different story and the responsible person should pay a price. This may be the case in this shooting.

I agree that from looking at the video it does not look like a good shoot. I was not there and do not have all of the facts. What I think is wrong is that every time a police officer does something unintentionally wrong or makes a mistake people automatically jump on the band wagon that the cop did it intentionally and should be locked away. That's harsh, and I hope you never make a mistake that causes someone else to be injured. Both the motorcyclist and the police officer will be haunted by this single event for the rest of their lives.

 

[Jeff Q]

I hope for the same.

 

[Reaper]

Well, from what I saw (video) and the media coverage, I think it was probably an accidental shooting that the officer tried to cover up. As someone said, he was probably not a veteran officer, was nervous (over stressed) and pulled the trigger unintentionally, then tried to cover.

 

[chivvalry]

I wonder what would have happened if the situation was that he did get nervous/excited and pulled the trigger on the guy but immediately owned up to f*cking up and instead of standing there like an ahole pointing his gun at the victim laying on the ground bleeding under his motorcycle instead jumped into rescue mode.

What ever happened to taking accountability for your own actions?

 

[k7lvo]

2. There is no such thing as a routine traffic stop, if you get to thinking that way its time for a new job. One of the most dangerous things we do every day, you just never know who you are pulling over. Could be some gun wielding murdering psycho and you just pulled him over to warn him his tail light was out and he needed to get it fixed but he knows what he did....

Years ago I had the opportunity to help the training officer for a police department by playing the Bad Guy role in traffic stop scenerios. I'm sure the officers learned from the training, which obviously was the design, but I also learned up close and personal what you just stated: there's no such thing as a routine traffic stop. Playing with paintball guns (although a paintball in the head from the range of 4 feet really rings your bell!) and rubber knives probably made me about as brave/stupid as your average dirtbag is with real guns and knives; it was truly interesting - and VERY thought provoking - to watch things go down even when everyone knew that it was going to be anything but "routine."

 

[Jeff Q]

Resposibility is some that is growing more and more rare these days and is a big part of why our beloved country is on the decline IMHO

 

[James Burleigh]

We've got a similar case out here in the Bay Area, when on New Year's Day a BART (local metro train) cop shot and killed an un-armed man who had been involved with others in some mayhem on the train. He was lying on his stomach on the platform when the shooting took place, possibly resisting. Defense looks like they're going to argue the cop thought he had pulled his Taser. Notice at 1:57 when the shooting occurs how the cop stands up before firing. Not too graphic: fuzzy and dark. DD

BART shooting vid

 

[puppychow]

We've got a similar case out here in the Bay Area, when on New Year's Day a BART (local metro train) cop shot and killed an un-armed man who had been involved with others in some mayhem on the train. He was lying on his stomach on the platform when the shooting took place, possibly resisting. Defense looks like they're going to argue the cop thought he had pulled his Taser. Notice at 1:57 when the shooting occurs how the cop stands up before firing. Not too graphic: fuzzy and dark. DD
BART shooting vid

I would agree with the defense. If he intended to shoot the guy, he could have done so kneeling down. The officer appeared stunned when he heard the gunshot, I also see the other cop getting up and moving away from the guy just as this cop shot the person. I think they were getting ready to Taser him and the cop pulled a gun instead. A very bad mistake, but he should still be held accountable for his mistake and punished in accordance, a life was taken - which should not have been. Although, I am not sure what that punishment should be.

 

[chivvalry]

We've got a similar case out here in the Bay Area, when on New Year's Day a BART (local metro train) cop shot and killed an un-armed man who had been involved with others in some mayhem on the train. He was lying on his stomach on the platform when the shooting took place, possibly resisting. Defense looks like they're going to argue the cop thought he had pulled his Taser. Notice at 1:57 when the shooting occurs how the cop stands up before firing. Not too graphic: fuzzy and dark. DD
BART shooting vid

This one truly looks like, with the limited grainy footage, that he thought he was going to tase him. Negligent manslaughter or something like that but not intentional murder. When the gun went off you could almost see the shock on his face. Frankly I feel for the officer on this one... That dumbass punk resisting was the root cause of the event.

 

[boomerang]

That's BULLSHIT!!!!
The attorney said, "he could have just as easily put his hands above his head". Ah, I don't know about you, but it looks like his left hand may have been holding the grip to keep the bike stabilized. Usually a bike becomes less stable with bars turned and hands off the grips...especially if your a bit tipsy. Besides, having to twist your body to that right THAT much to shoot is unstable, if not impossible. If you were gonna shoot at that angle, it is more convenient/logical/easier, to twist left and shoot under your left arm.

I sure hope there are motorcyclists on the jury!

+1 Thats what I thought as well. If I was going to shoot from that position I would have fired under my left arm.

It would be interesting to find out if the biker may have only had a little weed in his pocket and was trying to figure out how to get rid of it.

 

[caryt]

IMO bottom line Police are here to protect and serve thats what we pay them for. They should always give civilians the benefit of doubt and if that ends up getting them killed thats what they are paid for. Don't like the odds don't take the job. They are not hero's as is the popular opinion today they are just doing what they are paid for. In this case fry the cop, set a example and stop running the police like a military organization.

 

[HotRodZilla]

I wonder what would have happened if the situation was that he did get nervous/excited and pulled the trigger on the guy but immediately owned up to f*cking up and instead of standing there like an ahole pointing his gun at the victim laying on the ground bleeding under his motorcycle instead jumped into rescue mode.
What ever happened to taking accountability for your own actions?

I think Chivvalry hit this one right on the head. I stayed out of this too, because I don't have any more insight than anyone else here. However, it looks to me like the officer got out of his car, gun drawn, and lit one off accidently. He should have immediately owned up to that instead of trying to say that he thought the victim had a gun. I'm a paranoid bastard when I work the street and even I didn't think that guy was gonna produce a gun. If it was an accident, the cop should have said so.

If it was an accident, it does not matter what type of firearm he was using. Under stress, all the different weight trigger pulls are almost non-issues. Situations like that have happened everywhere, because you can train someone all you want, but you never know exactly what they are going to do in a very high stress situation until they get there. This area had an officer shoot a lady in the back while she was lying on the ground complying. The situation was elevated and he was supposed to be covering her and somehow his finger got on the trigger and adrenaline took its toll.

I was nearly shot by a federal agent in a SWAT stack once when he lit off a round while we were practicing entries on two adjoining houses. Shit happens, its just unfortunate someone got hurt.