I could be incorrect. But, if I recall this correctly MotoPort used a independent testing agency to test the materials using industry standards. If, you email Wayne at Motoport he will email out all kinds of testing paper work on the fabrics.
Road Rash Testing?
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Cdogman
Bad Boy
I gotta Gunny all this stuff about gear. My siggy tells of my recent getoff.
I had VERY good gauntlet type Kangaroo gloves on. My wife and I both own a pair now.
I had Aplinstar Boots on....... Wore a hole ALL the way through
I had Olym[pia Pants on
Joe Rocket Jacket
Shoei Helmet
I slid about 150 feet with Pillion
My gloves took a huge hit. The palm of my hand was black andn blue at the base of my thumb for weeks............. No Rash. Gloves held up
Tore all the was through my Olympia pants. Levis under were next in line but I stopped sliding
Holes in Both my, and wifeys jackets (my Joe Rocket, her first gear)
I was not impressed with our pants compared to the other gear.............. HOWEVER
It all did its job!!! I cannot say enough about those gloves.. My hands would have been missing chunks........... That was it, Not a scratch otherwise for either of us.
In that getoff I destroyed about $1200.00 worth of gear (helmets never touched down) That was a cheap doctor bill indeed considering the cost of the skin graphs we did not need.
.02
BTW. I have Cycleport gear too. Good stuff
I had VERY good gauntlet type Kangaroo gloves on. My wife and I both own a pair now.
I had Aplinstar Boots on....... Wore a hole ALL the way through
I had Olym[pia Pants on
Joe Rocket Jacket
Shoei Helmet
I slid about 150 feet with Pillion
My gloves took a huge hit. The palm of my hand was black andn blue at the base of my thumb for weeks............. No Rash. Gloves held up
Tore all the was through my Olympia pants. Levis under were next in line but I stopped sliding
Holes in Both my, and wifeys jackets (my Joe Rocket, her first gear)
I was not impressed with our pants compared to the other gear.............. HOWEVER
It all did its job!!! I cannot say enough about those gloves.. My hands would have been missing chunks........... That was it, Not a scratch otherwise for either of us.
In that getoff I destroyed about $1200.00 worth of gear (helmets never touched down) That was a cheap doctor bill indeed considering the cost of the skin graphs we did not need.
.02
BTW. I have Cycleport gear too. Good stuff
charismaticmegafauna
Well-known member
A little defense: It is an article that's, now, about 9 years old. It was probably written by (Mr. Subjective) the owner of the company? And, as such, certainly has some marketing aspect to it....
He may not be the greatest technical writer, either?A call or email to Aerostich may also provide you with some stats & facts, too? I know the owner can talk in great detail (ad nauseaum
) about this stuff.Bottom line: 'stiches get worn alot, and most of the time, by those who have them (when they ride) -- ATGATT. And that's a good-thing.
I'm sure there's good competition, too (that's also a good-thing).
rammer9460
Well-known member
At Toecutters prompting, I'll tell you my ATGATT story..
Aug 4 '06. Goldwing Vs. Antelope
There wasn't much of anything I could have done to avoid the antelope. It was 10:00 am in the middle of nowhere, east of Sturgis SD. We were 7 or 8 bikes riding in a group, west bound. I saw an adult antelope race out of the south ditch and almost run into the lead bike. The driver of the lead bike was too busy looking north and pointing to a small herd of them out in a field. He never saw the one that almost hit him. That antelope ran back into the ditch and joined the rest of its "family"(?). We were all traveling about 60-65 mph and were just starting to get on the brakes after seing that. I was the 6th or 7th rider in the group. As we passed the "family" in ditch to our left, 1 of the little bastards, a very young one, ran out in front of me. I was riding a Goldwing and pulling a trailer. Before I could even think of doing anything, the antelope hit the left front brake rotor and the impact took the bars from my hands and sent me flying off the left side of the bike. It's real strange how things slow down then..... I remember thinking, "Shit, this is going to hurt". I remember thinking "Damn, am I ever going to stop rolling", "Shit, I've got to get out of the road, there's traffic behind me", and "I hope standing up doesn't hurt". The bike and I became seperated in the accident. The bike continued in a low side slide untill it left the roadway into the left ditch, then it high sided and screwed up the other side. The H-D rider behind me locked up his rear brake, slid past me inches away from my head, crossed the highway and hit the back of my trailer. His passenger said I bounced real good.
So, why was I not wearing all my grear?? Good question. We were on the last leg of the trip to Sturgis, we had just stopped for gas about 15 minutes before this happened, it was getting really warm, and we only had another 30 miles to go... I guess I was thinking "what could happen now, we're almost there".
I got an ambulance ride to Sturgis Hospital, cleaned up, nothing broken, a lot of small patches of road rash, and a new found respect for ATGATT. I had all the right gear with me but I suppose I was too lazy/sure of my self, to wear it. I spent the next 3 weeks at home healing up instead of enjoying my vacation.
The Firstgear Mesh-tex jacket did it's job quiet well. The blue jeans offer NO protection. The matching Firstgear pants were in the trailer. I had my gloves off and was snacking from a pouch on the Goldwing. My helmet was in the trunk. I have since purchased a Shoie Multitec (better venting)and wear it and other riding gear religiously. I also think the fact I rolled rather than slid down the highway saved a HUGE amount of my skin. :dribble:
The GOOD thing to come out of this. If I hadn't crashed the Goldwing, I never would have bought the FJR. I bougth it 4 weeks after the crash. I told myself I had to get back on and ride. I couldn't let this keep me from riding. The insurance co. fixed the 'wing and all is good there. I have a few nasty dark red patches of skin to remind me to gear up, and if I cut my hair real short I can see a scar on my head. It's a good thing I wasn't real pretty before.
While I was in the hosp. e.r., the iron-butt riding nurse told me, drivers hit deer at night in the hills and antelope on the prairie during the day. The antlope tend to move during the hotter parts of the day and bed down in the cool.
I hope this isn't taken as a thread hi-jack or a endorsement for one brand of gear over the other. I intended this as a personal story that opened my eyes to ATGATT. I still believe that everyone has to make their own choices as to what they wear when they ride.
Ride Safe,
Erik
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i don't know that i would consider that link scientific, and should be noted it's from a business---cycleport, not a testing organization, so take that with a grain of salt, or however many grains you sprinkle on articles provided by businesses in the business of selling their own product. ( :
dean
cincinnati
uctofeej
Master of Random Thought
I've been looking around the 'net to find something - anything - scientific to back that up and to learn more about "cycles of failure." So far, I'm not having much luck. If/when I do find more info, I'll post up. But I suspect it's like someone already mentioned, the manufacturers do their own testing, so it may not be all that easy to find.
If, you send a email to Wayne at Motoport I am sure he would send you the actual test results.
uctofeej
Master of Random Thought
Okay, if anyone is interested, I've been trying to find more information about what "cycles of failure" is and how it is used to rate abrasion resistance on motorcycle gear. In the last few months, I've posed the question to several types of engineers and one textile manufacturer. Oddly enough, the engineers had guesses, but no real answers. The textile guy was closest.
There's something called the Wyzenbeek Abrasion Test. Tourmaster references it on their Carbolex clothing tags as the "Wyenbeek Abrasion Test." Once I got past the spelling error (great job in the marketing department, eh, guys!), I found some stuff on the 'net.
Basically, the textile industry uses a process called the "double rub" in which a fabric is stretched taut and rubbed by a device to simulate long-term wear. It is rubbed with sandpaper-like cotton duck material in two directions, back and forth across the warp (the long-running threads of a material) and the weft (interwoven threads that run perpendicular to the warp). A common machine for testing looks like the one on this page: clicky
It is the process of a double-rub that constitutes a "cycle." According to the document linked in post #2 above (Motoport's chart), competition grade leather fails at 1200-1700 cycles, 620 cordura at 1200, and 1000 cordura at 1780 cycles, for example.
So, what does "cycles of failure" mean exactly? Does it mean the point at which the fabric begins to tear? Not exactly. The cycle of failure rating can refer to a few different things: the point at which a material begins to discolor, thread breakage, or "noticeable wear."
According to Fabrics: A Guide For Interior Designers and Architects by Marypaul Yates, the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) raised questions about the Wyzenbeek Abrasion Test because it "is so unreliable and its margin of error so great that its competency as a predictor of actual wear is questionable." (page 250 if you want to look it up) The ASTM tried to improve the guidelines themselves in 2000 to reduce the margins of error and improve reliability, but they were unsuccessful and ultimately settled on the test as is. Yates also stated, "Many professionals believe the inconsistencies highlighted by the ASTM findings have brought the entire test method into question, but since it is so well known and no better test is apparent, it reigns." Wyzenbeek remains the "standard" if you can call it that.
So, in short, it would seem the abrasion ratings we get on our protective gear is more about normal wear and tear (i.e. how many times you slide your butt across your seat) than it is about sliding across pavement. Higher ratings probably equal a higher level of protection over lower ratings, but there is no industry evidence to suggest that, at least not based on the information they are giving us.
There's something called the Wyzenbeek Abrasion Test. Tourmaster references it on their Carbolex clothing tags as the "Wyenbeek Abrasion Test." Once I got past the spelling error (great job in the marketing department, eh, guys!), I found some stuff on the 'net.
Basically, the textile industry uses a process called the "double rub" in which a fabric is stretched taut and rubbed by a device to simulate long-term wear. It is rubbed with sandpaper-like cotton duck material in two directions, back and forth across the warp (the long-running threads of a material) and the weft (interwoven threads that run perpendicular to the warp). A common machine for testing looks like the one on this page: clicky
It is the process of a double-rub that constitutes a "cycle." According to the document linked in post #2 above (Motoport's chart), competition grade leather fails at 1200-1700 cycles, 620 cordura at 1200, and 1000 cordura at 1780 cycles, for example.
So, what does "cycles of failure" mean exactly? Does it mean the point at which the fabric begins to tear? Not exactly. The cycle of failure rating can refer to a few different things: the point at which a material begins to discolor, thread breakage, or "noticeable wear."
According to Fabrics: A Guide For Interior Designers and Architects by Marypaul Yates, the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) raised questions about the Wyzenbeek Abrasion Test because it "is so unreliable and its margin of error so great that its competency as a predictor of actual wear is questionable." (page 250 if you want to look it up) The ASTM tried to improve the guidelines themselves in 2000 to reduce the margins of error and improve reliability, but they were unsuccessful and ultimately settled on the test as is. Yates also stated, "Many professionals believe the inconsistencies highlighted by the ASTM findings have brought the entire test method into question, but since it is so well known and no better test is apparent, it reigns." Wyzenbeek remains the "standard" if you can call it that.
So, in short, it would seem the abrasion ratings we get on our protective gear is more about normal wear and tear (i.e. how many times you slide your butt across your seat) than it is about sliding across pavement. Higher ratings probably equal a higher level of protection over lower ratings, but there is no industry evidence to suggest that, at least not based on the information they are giving us.
madmike2
Shtirrenuppenmeister
So in the end, you are left with personal testimonies?
I have had an incident where First Gear protective clothing had minor failures. During a slow-speed (10-15 mph, hitting a puddle of water in a left-turn lane) lowside the outer zipper on the mesh over-pants opened, exposing my leg.
Thankfully I was sliding on my rear and raised my leg to keep it off the pavement.
During the same incident my Kilimanjaro chafed through the elbow and I had a small burn on my left elbow.
Compared to my KLR incident, where the Cycleport gear protected me from all road rash and the installed armor protected me from even more serious internal injury, guess which is my brand of choice......every day.
If you need scientific proof, that may not exist, so go to your nearest Cycle Gear store and buy what's on sale.
Or don't crash.....
Or take the word of those of us who have survived.
I have had an incident where First Gear protective clothing had minor failures. During a slow-speed (10-15 mph, hitting a puddle of water in a left-turn lane) lowside the outer zipper on the mesh over-pants opened, exposing my leg.
Thankfully I was sliding on my rear and raised my leg to keep it off the pavement.
During the same incident my Kilimanjaro chafed through the elbow and I had a small burn on my left elbow.
Compared to my KLR incident, where the Cycleport gear protected me from all road rash and the installed armor protected me from even more serious internal injury, guess which is my brand of choice......every day.
If you need scientific proof, that may not exist, so go to your nearest Cycle Gear store and buy what's on sale.
Or don't crash.....
Or take the word of those of us who have survived.
Kevin Daly
YES I ran the fatty over!!
IMO,
Watch a typical MotoGP or AMA superbike race. these guys come off a speed and they get right back up and ride on a lot of th etime (if the bike survives). What are they wearing? In fact take a closer look at their gear after a highside or lowside. Usually just a mild scuff or two....
Leather baby!
Watch a typical MotoGP or AMA superbike race. these guys come off a speed and they get right back up and ride on a lot of th etime (if the bike survives). What are they wearing? In fact take a closer look at their gear after a highside or lowside. Usually just a mild scuff or two....
Leather baby!
i wish i could remember my source, but i _know_ i read five or more years ago that with regard to armor, the study found much higher rate of failure when the armor stuck out above the garment vs. armor that was "under" the garment. they noted that it wasn't necessarily the armor that failed, but rather that area directly surrounding the armor, on the armor that's raised.
dean
cincinnati
dean
cincinnati
drew231506
0 Posts Per Day
Hey MadMike do you think a back protector would have made much a difference in your get off? Esp with the broken vertebrae?
madmike2
Shtirrenuppenmeister
I agree with you, but....
1) I don't ride the speeds they do.
2) I don't ride nearly at the edge they do.
3) I wear my gear longer than 20-30 minutes, more like 6-8 hours.
4) I ride in temperatures that raise to 110 degrees...
....even vented leather isn't wearable then, though some have the heat tolerance for it. I don't.
5) I know people who wear Aerostitch suits who overheat in our Summers.
6) I assume this is about practical solutions for every day comfort and protection.
I make the best assessment of available products and buy that gear. Since my nylon (Cordura, whatever) had failed in the past, I decided to upgrade and Kevlar Mesh (because my kool-vest works well under it) is the direction I chose to go for personal protection I will wear ATGATT.
YMMV.
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Kevin Daly
YES I ran the fatty over!!
I concede that above 90 degrees with south/east humidity, I dont like to stop (or really go below 35). but I am wearing JR Supermoto gear, which is a 2 piece w/360 degree zippers and I am nice an comfy for a 500 mile day ride. it is perforated and solid leather with a mix of mesh under the arm and some fabric in the unlikely to contact areas. Of course I dont wear it to work cause I cant fit much in the way of cloths under it
but for straight up all day riding I really like it.Oh and the chicks dig it too
fjr
Well-known member
This is a great thread. I try to be atgatt as much as I can.
Sometimes, when I just want to go out for a cup of coffee
I wear jeans.....but I do wear these and advise them if you
do, sometimes, wear jeans.
Built for all-day comfort, these 100% cotton denim pants have a durable, 1,000-denier Cordura® nylon facing with a water-shedding Teflon® fabric finish. An oversized fit provides comfortable wearing. Wrangler brand.
No lectures. Please.
Sometimes, when I just want to go out for a cup of coffee
I wear jeans.....but I do wear these and advise them if you
do, sometimes, wear jeans.
Built for all-day comfort, these 100% cotton denim pants have a durable, 1,000-denier Cordura® nylon facing with a water-shedding Teflon® fabric finish. An oversized fit provides comfortable wearing. Wrangler brand.
No lectures. Please.
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madmike2
Shtirrenuppenmeister
I don't think a back protector would have helped me. I cracked C-4 and C-6 (in my neck) when I went head first into the wooden support of a guard rail. That also caused the concussion and blood clot on my brain.
JimLor
Well-known member
A timely thread for me. On Friday I read a Navy/Marine Corps saftety magazine, Sea and Shore, and it prompted me to write a letter to the editor. It was great, 3 or 4 articles on motorcycle (MC) accidents, and only 1 guy was wearing complete safety gear; yes, he was riding a BMW. And surprise, one of the Dept Heads at the Safety Center had an accident, but he was wearing his, "DoT approved helmet." Yes, that is shorthand for the smallest, least effective, and bad-assed helmet you could find.
One of the lessons seared in my mind from as far back as officer candidate's school is that there are two objectives to leadership; Accomplish the mission AND Take care of your Marines. We aren't doing that regarding MC safety and safety gear. What really torqued me off about the articles was how several folks seemed so proud that they were wearing the required Personal Protective Equipment (PPE). Per the Navy/Marine Corps, PPE includes "long-sleeved shirt" and "long pants." One victim mulled that his sweater didn't do much to protect from road-rash. We're the same organization that wouldn't think of letting a Marine/Navy Corpsman outside of the wire in Iraq w/o 30+ pounds of actually PPE, but we tell our folks that long sleeved shirts, pants, and the technically correct, "DoT approved helmet" are effective PPE. Bullshit. I'm in the process of writing an article for the magazine - hope they'll publish it!
BTW, can't say that I particulary trust tests done by manufacturers when their product comes out the winner. Just saying....
One of the lessons seared in my mind from as far back as officer candidate's school is that there are two objectives to leadership; Accomplish the mission AND Take care of your Marines. We aren't doing that regarding MC safety and safety gear. What really torqued me off about the articles was how several folks seemed so proud that they were wearing the required Personal Protective Equipment (PPE). Per the Navy/Marine Corps, PPE includes "long-sleeved shirt" and "long pants." One victim mulled that his sweater didn't do much to protect from road-rash. We're the same organization that wouldn't think of letting a Marine/Navy Corpsman outside of the wire in Iraq w/o 30+ pounds of actually PPE, but we tell our folks that long sleeved shirts, pants, and the technically correct, "DoT approved helmet" are effective PPE. Bullshit. I'm in the process of writing an article for the magazine - hope they'll publish it!
BTW, can't say that I particulary trust tests done by manufacturers when their product comes out the winner. Just saying....
Kevin Daly
YES I ran the fatty over!!
Well thats an amazing story. perhaps you should push a new official standard for PPE. It's amazing to me that an official position for safty for essentially kids (18-20 something) would be so negligent.
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