Running an engine hooked up to a trickle charger

[gregory]

Greeting all,

Had a little fire at Pop's house Friday. Pop's out on vacation visiting his sister in Indiana, so my brother was taking care of his house in his month long absence. Brother starts all of the cars in the down the hill garage to let them run for a bit and charge the batteries on the non-trickle charger ones. Done this many, many times before. Brother goes back up to water plants and soon someone is knocking on the door saying theres a fire, and sure enough,, the garage is engulfed. Gone are 4 autos ('06 vette, '06 Toyota 4X4, '02 Honda CRV and a Jeep CJ) 7 Motorcycle including a Goldwing with sidecar, several bultacos from my childhood, a Honda 450 turned cafe racer and a few others.

Fire Marshall thinks the fire started by the Vette, because the tires were completely gone from it and the front tires on the Toyota parked behind the vette were completely gone as well and there was some rubber left on the rear wheels of the Toyota.

The vette was on a battery tender, as it was already in long term storage before they left (pops does not want to put miles on it, so it usually sits for long periods) So, my question is this, could the fact that the vette was on a tender and then ran (at idle speed only) while on the tender have started the fire? And to tie this into FJR's/motorcycles in general, do those that have to do long term storage run the bike while it is on it tender or do you disconnect prior to running the bike? I rarely have to use my tender, so I have never really thought about this.

Thanks everbody,

Greg

Admin, I wasn't sure if I should post in off topic or here as it is a technical question. Please feel free to move. Thanks.

 

[Geezer]

Sorry to hear about all of those cool machines gone up in smoke.

I have never started an engine with the trickle charger on because I am concerned about overloading the charger by putting the load of the starter on it. I would hope that a charger would have internal protection or at least a circuit breaker on it, but that may depend on the specific charger.

It is possible that something near enough to the exhaust could catch fire, especially if the car has a catalytic converter. A mouse nest would probably light up.

I never run an engine in storage just to run it. I suppose the fuel would be a problem after some time even if it has no alcohol in it and with stabilizer, it still has a finite life. And, eventually the oil would drain off of bearings and cams and stuff after some very long period, but I don't know how long that takes. I never stored a vehicle more than six months.

 

[wheatonFJR]

Don't have an answer for you, but that is a crappy day.

 

[mcatrophy]

The only possible reason I could envisage is if the tender tried to regulate what it saw as excess voltage by dumping current. There's a lot of amps coming out of a car's alternator, if that's the case it might start a fire in the tender. Was the tender close to the 'vette's engine, or away from it?

I'm not suggesting I think this is the start of the fire, merely one possibility, depending on the design of the tender.

 

[gregory]

Mcatrophy/Geezer,

Not sure of the charger make, or where it was in relationship to the car, but my thinking is that it is a strong possibility.

As for mice, they have a lot of pack rats where pops is (Tucson) and they are very careful to keep an eye out for them. However, My feeling is that is either the charger, or a critter nest is the starting point.

 

[FJRay]

I don't see the tender being a problem. I have started many cars and boats with chargers hooked up without issue. A critter nest around an exhaust manifold is a sure fire. Had it happen on my riding mower last year but fortunately I had pushed it out of the barn before starting it.

 

[dudeckp]

Non-authoritative answer: yes, that could be the cause.

• With the tender still attached, starter will draw current from any source, putting more demand than the tender should supply. Internal overload protection should prevent it, but cheaper models might fail.
• One the engine was running, the car's charging system would be putting higher voltage on the tender, reversing the current flow (also bad)
• The latent heat inside the tender may have eventually ignited a part, or fuel vapor after all his work.

Such bad fortune, I hope there was something else that caused it. Accidents suck less than bad decisions in the long run.

 

[Pterodactyl]

No idea about the cause. Has your brother been seen lately?

 

[gregory]

LOL Pterodactyl,

Yes he has! I am leaning toward critter nest first, tender second, and perhaps a leak onto a hot header third.

I think we will never know the cause.

Thanks all

Greg

 

[exskibum]

Ouch. That is painful to read. Will be interested to know if you ever know the answer. Your brother must feel like ****. BTW, where did this occur? (Hard to imagine this story won't make the news if it gets out.)

 

[Jer]

I have never heard of a battery tender starting a fire, but several years ago a friend had his golf cart catch fire and destroy his garage while connected to a charger. I never have left my cart connected to a charger for the six months I spend in Oregon because of that occurrence.

I leave both of my motorcycles connected to battery tenders, but restrict the time they are connected to power. The power is only on for an hour a day in my garage and night time only for the FJR parked in a carport.

Sure am sorry for the mishap and hope everything was insured.

 

[BwanaDik]

This ^^^

I've found that even the high end battery tenders will boil off the water eventually. I keep mine on a timer for one hour per day only. Works great. I also don't start my vehicles while connected for the same reasons listed.

 

[dcarver]

perhaps a GAS leak onto a hot header

uh-huh. bad day. wow.

 

[ionbeam]

Sorry to read about the mishap and the meltdown of lots of nice toys. There is a former Forumite that also had a garage fire that was blamed on his battery charger.

It made me go look at my trickle charger (Optimate). FWIW, over that past few years I have been involved in getting our products 'Agency Tested' which results in markings like UL, CSA and ETL which are safety markings. My Optimate carries the ETL marking so it has passed safety testing which includes flammability testing.

The author of this post isn't responsible for brain damage or unexpected onset of narcolepsy if you read below the line.

=================================================================

There are several sets of tests that products need to meet to earn a safety rating regardless if it's UL, CSA or ETL. There are personal safety tests that ensure fingers can't touch hazardous voltages or fit into fan blades or turning gears. There are tests to see that when things go seriously wrong shrapnel will be contained. There are fault tests where serious failures are deliberately caused to ensure that dangerous parts don't become exposed. One of the favorite parts of the tests are called the Abnormals where faults are placed to ensure that fuses blow, transformers won't blow up and no self sustaining flames are generated. This would be where the output of the charger is raised above the rated maximum voltage to ensure Bad Things don't happen.

And finally, the part that is relevant to this thread, the UL 94 flammability rating. For my Optimate to earn the ETL marking, or other chargers to earn similar ratings they have to pass the UL 94 V-0 test. This test ensures that even when unthinkable failures occur, flames will self extinguish in <10 seconds, and even though dripping is permitted the drips cannot be inflamed (their words). This is the longest possible way to say that no matter what is done to a battery charger that carries a safety rating it should highly resistant to initiating a flame and should not be capable of sustaining a fire even with Murphy's help.

 

[Fred W]

I feel so much better, knowing that I own and use an Optimate.

My garage is attached to the house. One would hate to conflagrate their entire domicile, in an effort to keep the lousy battery topped up.,

 

[RossKean]

I am skeptical that the battery tender caused the fire. Its not a particularly high current device (compared to a battery charger) and I would expect that there is some safety overheat fusible link or regular over-current fuse if the car's alternator started pumping a bunch of energy back into the device.

The manifold, the exhaust pipe and particularly the catalytic converter can get VERY hot on an idling car. Especially true if the fuel mixture is running rich. Critter nest or even a scrap of wind-blown paper could be responsible. Perhaps even leaking fluids onto the hot manifold or CC.

As others have said, too bad about the loss of some cool vehicles. Just be happy that the garage wasn't part of the main house structure.

 

[mcatrophy]

... no matter what is done to a battery charger that carries a safety rating it should highly resistant to initiating a flame and should not be capable of sustaining a fire even with Murphy's help.

Unless that safety rating was put on by an unscrupulous El Cheapo back-street manufacturer, it has been known. The unit may be unbranded, may be an unknown brand-name, or may be a well-known brand, but counterfeit.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Well gregory you've made me think. I have a 2000 sq. ft. shop with five bikes, an ATV, a lawn tractor and a generator all on battery tenders. I normally have all the bikes on a tender whenever they are parked. The shop was originally built to be a business, but never got off the ground because it was not zoned for commercial use. Luckily for me it has many electrical outlets and there is one row of five that are ideal for powering tenders for the bikes. The five outlets are all on a circuit with a GFI outlet that controls power to them all. I just went out and cut the power and figure for now on I'll turn it on for 5-6 hours once a month or so. Now I can sleep soundly again.

 

[ionbeam]

Well gregory you've made me think...

Now this is the mark of a good thread!