"Seafoaming" your FJR?

[Fred W]

Ok...I was just making sure. I had forgotten that back in the day, we used to use ATF for power steering fluid. We had an old truck that had a leaking powersteering pump. ATF was cheaper than PSF, so we used ATF. I never used it to clean anything though. Good to know.

Not just in the old days. A lot of modern Chrysler products (like my Jeeps) prescribe ATF+4 fluid for power steering fluid. Why not? IT does the job quite well (it is hydraulic fluid after all) and it's dirt cheap. Cheaper than PS fluid

AND I won't be pouring ATF into my crankcase. I have a strong feeling all this BS about additives that clean stuff up are full of it. I don't remember where I read it or heard it, but it seemed like a reliable source that said all engine additives are snake oil. They don't do ****, but no one can prove they do or don't, so the claim is the claim. I'm betting my engine is clean enough.

Yeah, this is true. I think most additives are snake oil. But I still do think that you can add ZDDP (zinc) to your transmission (engine on a bike) oil and experience an improvement, and I do think that there is some value to regular doses of cleaning of the fuel system beyond the cleaners in modern gas. Can't prove it, but...

 

[ionbeam]

Here is a high, looping pitch, shading my eyes and looking to see if there is any spin on the ball....

Top Tier Detergent Gasoline

TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is the premier standard for gasoline performance. Seven of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz and Audi recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.

Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result, the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction.

These automakers have raised the bar. TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline help drivers avoid lower quality gasoline which can leave deposits on critical engine parts, which reduces engine performance. That's something both drivers and automakers want to avoid.

Deposit Control Standards

This technical document describes the deposit control performance of unleaded gasoline at the retail level that minimizes deposits on fuel injectors, intake valves, and combustion chambers. These standards comprise the requirements for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.

Standards

1.1 Retail Gasoline Performance Standards. The deposit control performance of unleaded gasoline conforming to section 1 of this document shall be met at the retail level in all grades of gasoline sold by a fuel company in all marketing areas of a selected nation. In addition, conformance to the standards shall mean gasoline sold in the selected nation shall not contain metallic additives, including methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT).

1.2 Deposit Control Additive Requirements. The deposit control additive used to meet the performance Standards described in 1.3 shall meet the substantially similar definition under Section 211(f) of the Clean Air Act. Also, the additive shall be certified to have met the minimum deposit control requirements established by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in 40 CFR Part 80. Lastly, the additive shall be registered with the EPA in accordance with 40 CFR Part 79.

1.3 Deposit Control Initial Performance Standards. Initial deposit control performance shall be demonstrated using the tests shown below.

1.3.1 Intake Valve Keep Clean Performance Standard.

1.3.1.1 Test Method. Intake valve deposit (IVD) keep clean performance shall be demonstrated using ASTM D 6201, Standard Test Method for Dynamometer Evaluation of Unleaded Spark-lgnition Engine Fuel for Intake Valve Deposit Formation. Tests demonstrating base fuel minimum deposit level (1.3.1.2) and additive performance (1.3.1.3) shall be conducted using the same engine block and cylinder head. All results shall be derived from operationally valid tests in accordance with the test validation criteria of ASTM D 6201. IVD results shall be reported for individual valves and as an average of all valves.

1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

1. Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
2. Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
3. Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics as measured by ASTM D 1319 or D 5580.
4. Contain no less than 24 mg/kg sulfur as measured by ASTM D 2622 or D 5453. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
5. Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290F. as measured by ASTM D 86.
6. Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.

1.3.1.3 Demonstration of Performance. The base fuel from 1.3.1.2 shall contain enough deposit control additive such the IVD is no more than 50 mg averaged over all intake valves. Results for individual valves and an average shall be reported. The unwashed gum level of the fuel containing deposit control additive shall be determined according to ASTM D 381 and reported.

1.3.2 Combustion Chamber Deposit Performance Standard.

1.3.2.1 Test Method. Combustion chamber deposits (CCD) shall be collected and weighed along with IVD using ASTM D 6201, Standard Test Method for Dynamometer Evaluation of Unleaded Spark-Ignition Engine Fuel for Intake Valve Deposit Formation. ASTM D 6201 does not contain a procedure for collecting and measuring CCD. Adapting a scrape and weigh procedure developed by CARB is recommended (see referenced test method dated March 12, 1999). Results for individual cylinders and an average shall be reported.

1.3.2.2 Base Fuel. Combustion chamber deposits shall be measured for the base fuel from 1.3.1.2.

1.3.2.3 Demonstration of Performance. The base fuel from 1.3.1.2 treated with additive at the concentration meeting the standard found in 1.3.1.3 shall not result in more than 140% of the average CCD weight for the base fuel without additive.

1.3.3 Fuel Injector Fouling Performance Standard.

1.3.3.1 Test Method. Fuel injector fouling shall be measured using the TOP TIER fuel injector fouling vehicle test available from GM. GM will run the test on a first-come-first-served basis and shall make the method available to those who wish to run the test on their own.

1.3.3.2 Base Fuel. Two options for base fuel are available:

1.3.3.2.1 Option 1. A full boiling range hydrocarbon gasoline or gasoline blending component, without oxygenates and without deposit control additives, that results in at least five inoperative injectors when tested by the method in 1.3.3.1.

1.3.3.2.2 Option 2. Federal emissions test gasoline specified in DFR 86.113-04, into which 4-methylbenzenethiol (WARNING: Flammable solid; irritant) has been blended at a concentration of 56 mg/L. The blended fuel must result in at least four inoperative injectors when tested by the method in 1.3.3.1. the Federal emissions gasoline, without deposit control additives, available from
Haltermann Solutions
15635 Jacintoport Blvd.
Stolt Building, Second Floor
Houston, TX 77015
800-696-2542
www.haltermannsolutions.com

1.3.3.3 Demonstration of Performance. A demonstration of injector fouling shall be done first. At least five out of six injectors (with Option 1) or at least four out of six injectors (with Option 2) shall be inoperative for the test to be valid. A demonstration of additive performance shall be done after the fouling tendency demonstration; no other test shall be conducted on the vehicle in the interim. A demonstration of additive performance shall be conducted using the same vehicle (including the fuel drain and flush procedures and installing new injectors) with the same batch of base fuel, but now containing the same amount of deposit control additive as in 1.3.1.3. A pass is defined as no more than one inoperative injector.

1.3.4 Determination of Deposit Control Additive Performance Concentration.

1.3.4.1 Methodology. The concentration of deposit control additive needed to meet the standards in 1.3.1.3 and 1.3.3.3 should be equivalent. However, if the concentration of deposit control additive in 1.3.3.3 is grater than in 1.3.1.3m the higher value shall be regarded as meeting both standards. Also, if the difference between the two concentrations is grater than 15%, 1.3.2.3 shall be repeated using the higher concentration.

1.3.5 Intake Valve Sticking Performance Standard.

1.3.5.1 Test Method. Intake valve sticking tendency shall be determined using either the 1.9 L Volkswagen engine (Wasserboxer according to CEC F-16-T-96) or the 5.0 L 1990-95 General Motors V-8 engine (SWRI IVS test). Two options are available for demonstrating intake valve sticking tendency.

1.3.5.2 Option 1. The valve-sticking tendency of the test fuel by itself will not have to be demonstrated prior to testing the candidate additive. The following shall be required of all tests:

1. Test fuel shall be either the same as in 1.3.1.2 or CEC valve sticking reference fuel.
2. Concentration of deposit control additive in the test fuel shall be at least twice the amount determined in 1.3.4.1.
3. Test temperature shall be -20°C.
4. Three 16-hr cold soak cycles, each followed by a compression pressure check, shall constitute a complete test.

1.3.5.2.1 Demonstration of Performance. A pass shall result in no stuck valves during any of the three cold starts. A stuck valve is defined as one in which the cylinder pressure is less than 80% of the normal average cylinder compression pressure.

1.3.5.3 Option 2. The valve-sticking tendency of the test fuel together with an additive known to cause valve sticking shall be demonstrated prior to testing the candidate additive. The following shall be required of all tests:

1. Test fuel shall be either the same as in 1.3.1.2 or CEC valve sticking test reference fuel.
2. An additive known to cause valve sticking shall be selected, and, when blended into test fuel, shall demonstrate valve sticking tendency as follows: (a) for the Volkswagen engine, at least two valves shall be stuck; (
   
   for the GM engine, at least three valves shall be stuck.
3. Test demonstrating performance of the candidate additive shall be conducted at a concentration that is at least three times the amount determined in 1.3.4.1.
4. Test temperature shall be -20°C.
5. One 16-hr cold soak cycle followed by a compression pressure check shall constitute a complete test.

1.3.5.3.1 Demonstration of Performance. A pass shall result in no stuck valves during the cold start. A stuck valve is defined as one in which cylinder compression is less than 80% of the normal average cylinder compression pressure.

 

[Fred W]

Too much to even read.

Thread killer!

 

[ionbeam]

Readers Digest Condensed: The test involves injectors that are fouled and getting them operational and cylinder compression leakage due to deposits on the valves and then the valves getting cleaned and thereby raising compression. All to standardized testing methods that defines, measures issues and measures results.

 

[RadioHowie]

In the really, REALLY, old days, mechanics used to toss a hanful of rice or ground-up walnut shells into the intake to decarbon a motor...usually in radial aircraft engines.

Look it up!!

 

[HotRodZilla]

Man, I hope you cut and pasted that **** Alan! I think it coulda been summed up with, "Blah blah blah...Don't use cheap gasoline." Lol

 

[ionbeam]

...I hope you cut and pasted that ****...

Yuppers Ctrl C - Ctrl V. The thread had reached a point where there were a lot of questions if some additives could actually help with fuel and carbon deposits. I read and remembered the Top Tier gas report that actually spelled out testing and measuring for effectiveness and pasted it for anyone that wanted proof persuasive evidence that there was indeed some measurable improvement using quality detergent gas. The same detergents can be bought in bottles under names like Techron.

If you ever have problems sleeping you should bookmark that post

 

[Harald]

Interesting story on sludge in an engine:

Back when I was in auto shop in high school, I was doing an oil change on a AMC with the 258ci straight 6 engine that I had acquired. This engine had run straight 30wt Quaker State oil for it's whole life. When I pulled the drain plug, nothing came out! Had to poke into the hole with a screwdriver to clear a path through the sludge so the oil could drain! I'm guessing that this oil has little or no detergent additives?

I'm thinking some ATF might have helped in this situation!

The shop teacher instructed me to put a few quarts of kerosene into the engine, run it for a few minutes and then drain the oil again. Seemed to work just fine and the car ran fine for a couple years until I got rid of it.

 

[rbentnail]

Interesting story on sludge in an engine:Back when I was in auto shop in high school, I was doing an oil change on a AMC with the 258ci straight 6 engine that I had acquired. This engine had run straight 30wt Quaker State oil for it's whole life. When I pulled the drain plug, nothing came out! Had to poke into the hole with a screwdriver to clear a path through the sludge so the oil could drain! I'm guessing that this oil has little or no detergent additives?

I'm thinking some ATF might have helped in this situation!

The shop teacher instructed me to put a few quarts of kerosene into the engine, run it for a few minutes and then drain the oil again. Seemed to work just fine and the car ran fine for a couple years until I got rid of it.

Yeah, I've done that with kerosene. I've used varsol too. Both work fine to loosen up all kinds of crap. After "the treatment" I always used cheap oil for 3-400 miles then used my regular choice of stuff, replacing the filter each time of course.

 

[HaulinAshe]

I use SeaFoam regularly and typically once per year per FJR (mine and others). I use four(4) lengths of vacuum hose cut to reach each TBS Vacuum nipple and out the left side. They are tied together in a bundle and fit perfectly down the spout of a 16 oz. can of SeaFoam.

Per the SeaFoam directions... get the engine HOT, not warm. Then I rev to roughly 5,000 RPM and shove the tubes into the SeaFoam. It typically sucks about 3/4 of the contents into the engine before stalling. Let it sit for AT LEAST FIVE MINUTES. Then cap off the vacuum nipples, give it WFO throttle and crank her up.

Ooops! Forgot Step-1. Call your neighbors in advance and let them know your house is about to appear it's on fire. Experience has taught me that the local fire departments don't take kindly to the false alarm.

And YES, I have definitive experienced proof (sorry, but no pics) that my SeaFoam treatment method really does remove carbon deposits from the throttle bodies and valves. I've done several Before & After inspections to verify the results. Now I would never do a valve check without first SeaFoaming the engine. It makes valve clearance checks very predictable by avoiding the sometimes false readings from carbon deposits being "pinched" at low speed rotation.

I have also routinely used the more expensive SeaFoam container with the long plastic tube (nozzle) and sprayed the throttle body butterflies. It does clean grime, but I can't say it does much for the more stubborn deposits. SeaFoam seems to work extremely well on HOT surfaces, but still requires elbow grease on cold surfaces. Mix it with gasoline or kerosene and it makes a superb parts wash solvent for hand-cleaning throttle bodies or those PAIR system parts before you put them in a casket... errr.. box forever.

 

[lnewlf]

This procedure is similar to what Motor Magazine suggests for carbon removal. [March issue-no point in a link as the online version doesn't show the sidebar that deals with this] They suggest using GM top end cleaner. After sucking in the cleaner in and stalling the engine, the plugs are removed and cleaner is poured in and left to sit overnight. The engine is then turned over by hand two full revolutions and then cranked with the starter. Plugs are then re-installed and the engine started resulting in a huge smoke cloud and allowed to warm up with a few redline revs. Final step is to change the oil and filter [mandatory]].

 

[GeorgiaRoller]

I use SeaFoam regularly and typically once per year per FJR (mine and others). I use four(4) lengths of vacuum hose cut to reach each TBS Vacuum nipple and out the left side. They are tied together in a bundle and fit perfectly down the spout of a 16 oz. can of SeaFoam.
Per the SeaFoam directions... get the engine HOT, not warm. Then I rev to roughly 5,000 RPM and shove the tubes into the SeaFoam. It typically sucks about 3/4 of the contents into the engine before stalling. Let it sit for AT LEAST FIVE MINUTES. Then cap off the vacuum nipples, give it WFO throttle and crank her up.

Ooops! Forgot Step-1. Call your neighbors in advance and let them know your house is about to appear it's on fire. Experience has taught me that the local fire departments don't take kindly to the false alarm.

And YES, I have definitive experienced proof (sorry, but no pics) that my SeaFoam treatment method really does remove carbon deposits from the throttle bodies and valves. I've done several Before & After inspections to verify the results. Now I would never do a valve check without first SeaFoaming the engine. It makes valve clearance checks very predictable by avoiding the sometimes false readings from carbon deposits being "pinched" at low speed rotation.

I have also routinely used the more expensive SeaFoam container with the long plastic tube (nozzle) and sprayed the throttle body butterflies. It does clean grime, but I can't say it does much for the more stubborn deposits. SeaFoam seems to work extremely well on HOT surfaces, but still requires elbow grease on cold surfaces. Mix it with gasoline or kerosene and it makes a superb parts wash solvent for hand-cleaning throttle bodies or those PAIR system parts before you put them in a casket... errr.. box forever.

Good firsthand feedback. I'd like to try this method myself. My last tank I ran some Seafoam in it but I've been on the fence about the vacuum tube cleaning. Just to be certain that I understand correctly...I'm to spray the Seafoam (Spray version, not the liquid?) into the TBS intake ports? Please verify that as well as the steps below for me to follow...

- Get engine hot

- Spray Seafoam into all (4) ports until it stalls

- Once it stalls let the engine sit for 5-10 minutes

- Recap (4) ports, restart engine and run at 5,000 rpm to burn off the fumes

I assume you run it until the exhaust is blowing clear again?

 

[ionbeam]

Haulin' is talking about the TBS synch ports.

 

[RaYzerman19]

Interesting story on sludge in an engine:Back when I was in auto shop in high school, I was doing an oil change on a AMC with the 258ci straight 6 engine that I had acquired. This engine had run straight 30wt Quaker State oil for it's whole life. When I pulled the drain plug, nothing came out! Had to poke into the hole with a screwdriver to clear a path through the sludge so the oil could drain! I'm guessing that this oil has little or no detergent additives?

I'm thinking some ATF might have helped in this situation!

The shop teacher instructed me to put a few quarts of kerosene into the engine, run it for a few minutes and then drain the oil again. Seemed to work just fine and the car ran fine for a couple years until I got rid of it.

In the old days, straight 30 did not have very much if any detergent, and you usually used those in applications likely to cause foaming (such as lawn mower engines with a splash system instead of oil pump) or it seemed diesels specified that. Modern oils now have better anti-foaming additives... I can't think now of where one would want to use anything but a multigrade.

 

[GeorgiaRoller]

Haulin' is talking about the TBS synch ports.

Oh ok. Thanks. That's why I wanted to be sure what the hell I was doing. lol

 

[wheatonFJR]

Haulin' is talking about the TBS synch ports.

Oh ok. Thanks. That's why I wanted to be sure what the hell I was doing. lol

Take video...

 

[Denver_FJR]

I use SeaFoam regularly and typically once per year per FJR (mine and others). I use four(4) lengths of vacuum hose cut to reach each TBS Vacuum nipple and out the left side. They are tied together in a bundle and fit perfectly down the spout of a 16 oz. can of SeaFoam....

The popular FUD on the Internet regarding this technique is you risk hydro-locking the engine. I know TBS ports are very small, but is it a legitimate concern?

 

[Aasland]

I use SeaFoam regularly and typically once per year per FJR (mine and others). I use four(4) lengths of vacuum hose cut to reach each TBS Vacuum nipple and out the left side. They are tied together in a bundle and fit perfectly down the spout of a 16 oz. can of SeaFoam....

The popular FUD on the Internet regarding this technique is you risk hydro-locking the engine. I know TBS ports are very small, but is it a legitimate concern?

I suspect this is why the motor magazine approach involves removing the spark plugs and rotating 2x by hand ... that should push any liquid out the exhaust ports.

 

[Fred W]

Hi Jeff! Good to see you posting!

Haulin' Ashe's reported experiences (several years ago) was a big part of what got me to try it before my last valve check.

I altered his procedure a little and used the deep creep version of seafoam sprayed into the vacuum ports using the long straw. The four long vacuum hoses into a jar of seafoam would likely give you a better soaking on all 4 cylinders simultaneously, but was chicken to employ that approach.

What I really need to do is yank the throttle bodies off and give them a good "hoss n' scrub", but I'm a lazy SOB, and the bike runs pretty damn good as it sits.

As for hydro-lock concerns, that is more apt to happen to the car guys that pour the liquid (relatively quickly) down their brake booster vacuum hoses, which are like 1/2" in diameter. The tiny vacuum hoses and volume that you can get into the TBS ports vs the total air intake is pretty small. I don't think you'd have to worry about that with this technique.

 

[jscasteel]

Is carbon buildup really a problem in FJR engines?