Sill Running Like Crap!

[RossKean]

Last summer, I ended out running in rain for an extended period of time on my way to NERD's. Somewhere around Bangor Maine, The bike started to run VERY roughly. It quit and I almost didn't get it started. Full story here. It more-or-less cleared up an hour or so after the rain stopped, although power and idle were still off. At Ed's Tech Day, we did quite a bit of stuff trying to determine the problem incliding spraying water around the coils and plug towers without any conclusive results. No visible arcing and we couldn't induce a repeat of the failure. We did some maintenance stuff on the bike including CCT and TBS. It ran horribly after that and I subsequently traced that problem to a pinched oxygen sensor wire (apparently unrelated to the initial issue - happened during re-assembly after CCT). I took the bike to the dealer in Burlington VT and they changed the plugs and sprayed silicone (waterproofing) around the coils, checked connections etc. At that point, I chalked up the original issue to possibly a bad tank of gas - further complicated by the O2 sensor.

Fast-forward to yesterday! After almost a year of decent running, I was caught riding in an extended period of rain again - the first time since last year's problems. The same thing happened again with rough running, poor idle, stalling etc. Made it home (barely) and parked it. I am currently scratching my head trying to figure out the next move. I was planning a major trip this summer - cross-continent tour to include NAFO and a LOT of points in between but I won't head off with a bike that won't run reliably in the rain.

How do I diagnose (and fix) this? I could guess and replace both coils/wires and wait until the next major rain to see if it quits again. While I don't really want to spend $150+ to change these, I wouldn't have a problem with it if I knew that would solve the issue. I'm more concerned that I might replace the coils, assume the thing is fixed and get stranded somewhere along the side of the road when I get caught in the rain the next time.

Any suggestions for me?

Thanks

Ross

 

[Bounce]

Have you checked your drain tubes that hang out the bottom of the bike?

Check to make sure you've done the old, original FJR mod. Cut a 45 degree angle on them so that the opening of each tube angles toward the back of the bike. It reduces the chance that road crud plugs them up. Clean them while down there too.

 

[RossKean]

Have you checked your drain tubes that hang out the bottom of the bike?

Check to make sure you've done the old, original FJR mod. Cut a 45 degree angle on them so that the opening of each tube angles toward the back of the bike. It reduces the chance that road crud plugs them up. Clean them while down there too.

They are angled toward the back but I haven't checked to see if they are plugged (or pinched). I assume this is a tank venting issue? I will check but both failures happened after extended riding in the rain so my initial assumption was high voltage problems. I will have a look at the vent lines this afternoon. At least that should be easy to rule out.

Thanks

 

[Denver_FJR]

...

Fast-forward to yesterday! After almost a year of decent running, I was caught riding in an extended period of rain again - the first time since last year's problems. The same thing happened again with rough running, poor idle, stalling etc. Made it home (barely) and parked it. I am currently scratching my head trying to figure out the next move. I was planning a major trip this summer - cross-continent tour to include NAFO and a LOT of points in between but I won't head off with a bike that won't run reliably in the rain.

...

Any suggestions for me?

Thanks

Ross

During previous incident you mentioned problem mostly cleared up once bike dried out. Same this time? If so, I would say this screams electrical.

 

[RossKean]

...

Fast-forward to yesterday! After almost a year of decent running, I was caught riding in an extended period of rain again - the first time since last year's problems. The same thing happened again with rough running, poor idle, stalling etc. Made it home (barely) and parked it. I am currently scratching my head trying to figure out the next move. I was planning a major trip this summer - cross-continent tour to include NAFO and a LOT of points in between but I won't head off with a bike that won't run reliably in the rain.

...

Any suggestions for me?

Thanks

Ross

During previous incident you mentioned problem mostly cleared up once bike dried out. Same this time? If so, I would say this screams electrical.

I haven't had a chance to try it today. Hope to this afternoon - I would agree that electrical (high voltage part) is the most likely. Its just difficult to get a definitive diagnosis. If a light spray of water yields immediate stalling or a lightening display then thats the answer. If it is more subtle, this might not work (didn't work last year). It didn't give me trouble until I had been riding several hours in the rain either time. I don't want to just swap out parts and wait to see if it happens (or doesn't happen) again the next time I find myself riding in the rain for an extended period of time.

 

[ekms377]

Have you checked your drain tubes that hang out the bottom of the bike?

Check to make sure you've done the old, original FJR mod. Cut a 45 degree angle on them so that the opening of each tube angles toward the back of the bike. It reduces the chance that road crud plugs them up. Clean them while down there too.

That is what I was thinking. Check the drains.....airbox as well.

 

[wmadoty]

A light spray may not give you what you need. You might have to break out the garden hose. Don't be thinking it might be this or that. You know water seems to cause the problem. That is all you know. Don't suspect anything. Start spraying things until you find what is making it fail. Simulate a rain storm. Spray from tires, etc. Could be connector shorting, could be coil, may be none of those.

I agree that throwing parts at the bike is not the answer. I remember your thread last year, and I remember thinking that the 02 sensor had nothing to do with this problem. Good luck finding this.

 

[joebiodiesel]

I bet you can reproduce it with a water hose. Your spark plug wires may be leaking. If you can wet them down and recreate the problem, you are all set. If not, wetting other small areas will help you zero in on the problem.

Joe

 

[RossKean]

Have you checked your drain tubes that hang out the bottom of the bike?

Check to make sure you've done the old, original FJR mod. Cut a 45 degree angle on them so that the opening of each tube angles toward the back of the bike. It reduces the chance that road crud plugs them up. Clean them while down there too.

That is what I was thinking. Check the drains.....airbox as well.

Will check the drains/vent lines for blockage.

A light spray may not give you what you need. You might have to break out the garden hose. Don't be thinking it might be this or that. You know water seems to cause the problem. That is all you know. Don't suspect anything. Start spraying things until you find what is making it fail. Simulate a rain storm. Spray from tires, etc. Could be connector shorting, could be coil, may be none of those.

I agree that throwing parts at the bike is not the answer. I remember your thread last year, and I remember thinking that the 02 sensor had nothing to do with this problem. Good luck finding this.

There was a problem with the O2 sensor wire but that was not the original issue. The crappy running during the rain was before we did the CCT work. I was hoping that the original problem was a bad tank of gas but yesterday's run with the repeat performance clearly showed that there was something else. I will check the drain/vent hoses for blockage and will have a go with a spray bottle (or garden hose) and see if I can find something. The dealer where I took the bike tried spraying the coils/wires with silicone spray but if it worked with the initial problem, it didn't last. This is the first real extended ride I have done in the rain since last summer.

I bet you can reproduce it with a water hose. Your spark plug wires may be leaking. If you can wet them down and recreate the problem, you are all set. If not, wetting other small areas will help you zero in on the problem.

Joe

Check drain lines then water spray. If I knew one of the coils was bad, I would just replace both and be done with it.

Thanks

Ross

 

[NMRoadRunner]

clogged or non-venting tank vent line was my first thought after reading the sysmtoms. easy to check, open the lid while it is acting up and it should cease almost instantly!

 

[RossKean]

I went out to have a look at the bike after I got home from work. I opened the tank and there was a bit of a woosh - apparently under some vacuum which is consistent with a clogged tank vent. I thought that this would be too easy. Took it for a ride and all is not golden. It was pretty bad at first (very rough at low RPM, poor throttle response, poor power) although it improved after a dozen miles or so. Still not right, but better. I didn't have a chance to fix the tank vent but did not close the cap tightly during the ride so it wasn't building any vacuum. Whether or not this is the root cause, I am going to service the fuel cap vent and make absolutely sure the vent lines are not splooged up or kinked.

Is it likely (or even possible) that it would take some time and running to rectify itself - I would have expected that to be more-or-less instant? Since a lack of venting is essentially a fuel-starved condition, I would not think there could be excessive carbon buildup that would have to burn off, but... (If I knew, I wouldn't be asking).

 

I didn't mention it, but the day before my long ride in the rain and subsequent problems, I (with the much appreciated help of another forum member) installed new iridium plugs, installed blockoff plates (removed PAIR crap) and did a TBS. Pretty sure that didn't have anything to do with my problems because it ran perfectly for several hundred miles until I ran into this issue. Another thing I did not mention is that this is a California model (with the charcoal canister and additional vent hoses). I have read about problems associated with the Cali models related to poor initial running if parked in a very hot area but nothing related to poor running after operating continuously in the rain on a rather cool (50 °F) wet day.

Ross

 

[Vmaxrider]

I had an issue with my charcoal canister. It would run rough, have difficulty starting, and feel as though it was only firing on two cylinders. It would clear up after a couple miles though. It sounds like yours is running rough and not clearing up at all. Is the drain clear on your charcoal canister? You could try bypassing it to see if it fixes the problem since it is realitively easy. Just lift the tank and pull your left fairing. On the bottom of the tank you have two drain lines on the left rear of it. One of those goes to the canister, the other is just a drain. Using a "T" or "Y" fitting from autozone, have both go to the drain line. On your canister there is one othe line that goes to your throttle bodies (cylinders one and four) remove that line from the canister and plug it. Then put it all back together and go for a ride. Using this method it is easily reversible if you need the canister again. Best of luck to you. The whole procedure only took about 45 minutes, could be worth a try.

 

[NMRoadRunner]

"I did not mention that this is a Caliifornia model" :glare: with charcoal canister, uh that would have helped a little. Still a breathing issue. Clear the tank vent, toss the can, and make sure the block off plates aren't leaking air. you might also check the TBS caps are tight while your back in there.

 

[RossKean]

I had an issue with my charcoal canister. It would run rough, have difficulty starting, and feel as though it was only firing on two cylinders. It would clear up after a couple miles though. It sounds like yours is running rough and not clearing up at all. Is the drain clear on your charcoal canister? You could try bypassing it to see if it fixes the problem since it is realitively easy. Just lift the tank and pull your left fairing. On the bottom of the tank you have two drain lines on the left rear of it. One of those goes to the canister, the other is just a drain. Using a "T" or "Y" fitting from autozone, have both go to the drain line. On your canister there is one othe line that goes to your throttle bodies (cylinders one and four) remove that line from the canister and plug it. Then put it all back together and go for a ride. Using this method it is easily reversible if you need the canister again. Best of luck to you. The whole procedure only took about 45 minutes, could be worth a try.

Will try bypassing.

"I did not mention that this is a Caliifornia model" :glare: with charcoal canister, uh that would have helped a little. Still a breathing issue. Clear the tank vent, toss the can, and make sure the block off plates aren't leaking air. you might also check the TBS caps are tight while your back in there.

As above, I will try getting rid of the canister and will check the vacuum caps and blockoff plates. Pretty sure both are right unless one of the rubber caps on the TBS nipples split.

If the canister is blocked, would it have an effect on running if the tank was venting properly (or open to prevent vacuum buildup)? Not sure how this auxillary plumbing works. The canister shouldn't be fuel saturated under the conditions I was experiencing which is what I think causes the hot park syndrome (saturated with fuel vapor causing a very rich condition)?

I'll get it it out of the circuit in any case.

Ross

 

[Vmaxrider]

There is a drain at the bottom of the canister. If it is plugged it could still be causing the rough running issues. I hope it works for you. I know it can be frustrating when our bikes are sick.

 

[RossKean]

There is a drain at the bottom of the canister. If it is plugged it could still be causing the rough running issues. I hope it works for you. I know it can be frustrating when our bikes are sick.

How does a blocked canister drain cause problems with running? Wouldn't it be the same as blocking off the canister and just having the normal tank vent? I am assuming blocked with water and/or crud, not fuel. I understand that a fuel saturated canister will cause major running problems because of the high concentration of raw fuel vapor returning to the intake.

If the problem is the result of blocked tank vents, clogged canisters etc., would you expect to see operation return to normal instantly? Or would something possibly be crudded up and have to clear? I am asking this because it wasn't running normally, even with the gas cap open. I am not disputing anyone's suggestions, just asking because I don't fully understand what may be happening.

I won't have a chance to get at the venting/canister/drain lines until tomorrow PM. This is the easiest stuff to do so I will do it first (and should be done anyway). The electrical will be checked out as well but I have learned not to "fix" multiple things at once - you never find out the root cause that way.

On the coils/wires, I plan to have a close look at the power connections, look for any physical evidence of arcing and then see if I can induce a failure by spraying water. I have previously checked the connections between the plug wires and the plug caps. I have also checked that the ECU socket is dry and there is no corrosion on any of the pins in the connector.

When I had these issues last year, I checked the (K&N) air filter to make sure it wasn't blocked because of aspirated water (it wasn't). I will likely check it again to make sure - time to service it anyway. Might just change to a stock filter. (Note: I am very careful about not over-oiling the K&N)

Ross

 

[Redfish Hunter]

In post #5, you made mention of a "lightening display". I did not notice you mention this before, are you seeing some other electrical related issues? Is it possible that your problem is electrical but has nothing to do with the coils?

If water is getting into the contacts of the ignition switch, the kill switch, or pretty much anywhere it could create a voltage drain and create resistance, the bike could/should run badly. If the voltage is too low before it gets to the coils or the ECU wouldn't it do the same thing? Obviously we are all taking shots in the dark here but I would try using a multi-meter anywhere I could find a point to check while I had somone I could trust running a water hose over the bike. It is amazing what a little dirty water in a switch can do to mess up everything. Good luck.

 

[HCB]

Last summer, I ended out running in rain for an extended period of time on my way to NERD's. Somewhere around Bangor Maine, The bike started to run VERY roughly. It quit and I almost didn't get it started. Full story here. It more-or-less cleared up an hour or so after the rain stopped, although power and idle were still off. At Ed's Tech Day, we did quite a bit of stuff trying to determine the problem incliding spraying water around the coils and plug towers without any conclusive results. No visible arcing and we couldn't induce a repeat of the failure. We did some maintenance stuff on the bike including CCT and TBS. It ran horribly after that and I subsequently traced that problem to a pinched oxygen sensor wire (apparently unrelated to the initial issue - happened during re-assembly after CCT). I took the bike to the dealer in Burlington VT and they changed the plugs and sprayed silicone (waterproofing) around the coils, checked connections etc. At that point, I chalked up the original issue to possibly a bad tank of gas - further complicated by the O2 sensor.

Fast-forward to yesterday! After almost a year of decent running, I was caught riding in an extended period of rain again - the first time since last year's problems. The same thing happened again with rough running, poor idle, stalling etc. Made it home (barely) and parked it. I am currently scratching my head trying to figure out the next move. I was planning a major trip this summer - cross-continent tour to include NAFO and a LOT of points in between but I won't head off with a bike that won't run reliably in the rain.

How do I diagnose (and fix) this? I could guess and replace both coils/wires and wait until the next major rain to see if it quits again. While I don't really want to spend $150+ to change these, I wouldn't have a problem with it if I knew that would solve the issue. I'm more concerned that I might replace the coils, assume the thing is fixed and get stranded somewhere along the side of the road when I get caught in the rain the next time.

Any suggestions for me?

Thanks

Ross

Ross, no expert here, but if the problem is only happening in the rain and then doesn't clear up very quickly (like the next day still not running well) sounds like you may be getting water in the airbox and saturating the filter element. A wet paper filter would breathe like an asthmatic, I'd think. I think you're right (in a later post) that a fuel-starved situation would clear up instantly by cracking the tank open. Also, probably not have anything to do with the rain.

I'd check the airbox/filter.

HTH.

--HC

 

[RossKean]

Ross, no expert here, but if the problem is only happening in the rain and then doesn't clear up very quickly (like the next day still not running well) sounds like you may be getting water in the airbox and saturating the filter element. A wet paper filter would breathe like an asthmatic, I'd think. I think you're right (in a later post) that a fuel-starved situation would clear up instantly by cracking the tank open. Also, probably not have anything to do with the rain.

I'd check the airbox/filter.

HTH.

--HC

I haven't checked the airbox this time (yet) but I did last summer when this happened (no obvious problems at that time). I am using a K&N filter but if that got wet, it would block just as effectively as a paper one. My current plan is to clear up the tank vent which I am pretty sure isn't perfect, make sure all drain hoses are good and remove or bypass the Kalifornia Krap. While I'm at it, the filter (and airbox) will be checked out. All of this stuff first before I start chasing electrical gremlins. Thanks.

Ross