Some Interesting New Bikes With Automatic Transmissions

[2006FJR]

I saw this article and I thought I would ask some of you what your thoughts are? Is this a motorcycle or a scooter? Does this bring new people to the sport or are there some long time riders that would like to never shift again. Clicky

 

[fjrchooser]

Seems about right for an around town commuter and looks pretty hot. I'd give it a go if the pricing is right.

 

[RadioHowie]

Is this a motorcycle or a scooter?

Which begs the question, what defines the differences between a "motorcycle" and a "scooter"?

I enclosed the words in quotes to make it a conceptual discussion.

My personal take on the issue comes down, not to transmission design, but to frame design.

An (old) Honda 750A is, to me, a motorcycle, even thought it had an automatic transmission. By the same token, my '62 Allstate (Vespa) was a scooter, even though it had a 3 speed manual tranny with clutch.

To me, it pretty much boils down to frame design. If it's a unibody two wheeler, regardless of tranny design or engine placement, it's a scooter. If it's a perimeter frame, with or without the engine integrated as a portion of the frame, it's a motorcycle.

Foot placement is also integral to the "definition" in my mind. Either side of the vehicle, on extending pegs, it's a motorcycle. "Inside" the perimeter of the body, as in a step-through design, also lends to the definition of scooter.

I almost asked this question a year or so ago when the AE was about to hit the streets and the auto-clutch detractors, who hadn't even seen - much less ridden - one, were derisively referring to them as "scooters" because of their clutch design. But they were know-nothing Luddites, so I never suggest the discussion then. However, since you actually jumped to the heart of the matter, i.e., "Is this a motorcycle or a scooter?", I felt the moment had arrived.

I'd love other opinions on the matter.

 

[bandito]

I go with RadioHowie on the distinction between scooter and motorcycle.

Now for the other question, hmmmm, the CVT is an interesting evelopment, for urban use it is perfect, but they don't perform well in all situations. You're on the highway and need to pass a cement truck so you drop it down to 4th then third and shoot around it. CVT cant do that. The AE can though. I still like to shift for what it's worth. B)

 

[wfooshee]

But the CVT will drop itself to a lower ratio when more torque is required. It's not locked to "this speed is this ratio."

Acceleration from a stop is weird, though. It holds a nearly steady engine speed as it moves the ratio up for road speed. Doesn't sound like you're getting faster until the wind noise is loud enough!

That said, I don't think I'd want one on a bike. I sure don't on a car!

 

[Colin24]

But the CVT will drop itself to a lower ratio when more torque is required. It's not locked to "this speed is this ratio."
Acceleration from a stop is weird, though. It holds a nearly steady engine speed as it moves the ratio up for road speed. Doesn't sound like you're getting faster until the wind noise is loud enough!

That said, I don't think I'd want one on a bike. I sure don't on a car!

I've never really done the CVT thing myself on any of my vehicles. But I know it is a technologie that a fair bit of R&D has gone into over the years. Alot of people don't realize that the Nissan Murano (Middleweight SUV with a 3500 lb tow rating) is a CVT transmission. I talked to a guy who had one once and used it for towing bikes around in one of those enclosed trailers. Said he had no problem at all towing the trailer around with it.

Looking at the spec sheet on the Murano I note that they offer two variants of the CVT. One regular and one with a "6 speed manual control" which is really a contradiction when you think about it. (Its either a manual or a CVT, not both). But I would believe it comes down to the computer-engine management and how its tuned. This version would be a CVT but it would likely be "tuned" to behave like it has specific gears so the revs go up and down.

Now back to the bike.... I think a CVT would be an intriguing technology for a bike. The question is how it is tuned to behave on the bike?

- Colin

 

[Geezer]

Personally, I dislike automatic transmissions. And that includes paddle shifters and other variations. I prefer a clutch and manual gearshift even in those cases where the automatic is quicker.

Regarding scooter vs motorcycle, I'd say a step through is a scooter. I'm not sure where that puts my old 3.5 hp mini bike or a moped. Neither of those are scooters, but it would be a stretch to call them motorcycles.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

<snip>CVT cant do that.

CVTs can downshift -- given enough horsepower to overcome its inclination to seek optimum. Snowmobiles operate that way, have huge acceleration -- they also have well over 100 HP (the ones people want!).

The AE can though. I still like to shift for what it's worth.

You're the exception, nowadays. The 'rule' is most people don't want to shift -- don't even want to be bothered by knowing it's shifting -- there, the CVT really shines (just like 'wfooshee' said). It's the next step in the 'dumbing down' process, imo. And, I'm not sure there's reliability there, yet -- lots of fly-weights pulling/pushing against springs; Speidel watch-band belt; track record (so-far) has been spotty. Tho, they've been used successfully in industry on conveyor belts for over 50 years. (kind'a like Diesel in industry -- but, not for bikes....?) :ermm: :dntknw:

 

[ponyfool]

To me, a scooter by definition is any two wheel transport that has a continuous fairing to floorboard configuration. The tranny doesn't matter at all.

I have ridden several ATVs with a CVT and have been impressed with the application of power when needed. I really like the idea of a rain setting like the one in the link. If I can't have a clutch, that would be a good alternative.

 

[RadioHowie]

Personally, I dislike automatic transmissions. And that includes paddle shifters and other variations. I prefer a clutch and manual gearshift even in those cases where the automatic is quicker.
Regarding scooter vs motorcycle, I'd say a step through is a scooter. I'm not sure where that puts my old 3.5 hp mini bike or a moped. Neither of those are scooters, but it would be a stretch to call them motorcycles.

To the mini-bike or moped, at least for the moped the answer is simple. It's a unique beast. Neither a motorcycle OR a scooter. It's its own device...a moped. If you couldn't pedal it, it would be a motorcycle. If you could pedal a motorcycle, then it's a moped, hence the name.

Now minibike...I'd day that's another unique classification. An entity unto itself.

So we've got 4 classifications of motorized two-wheelers...motorcycle, moped, scooter and minibike. Although, measured in practicality, a mini-bike is really just a toy, while mopeds are legitimate transportation devices.

That's IMHO.

 

[double_entendre]

Personally, I dislike automatic transmissions. And that includes paddle shifters and other variations. I prefer a clutch and manual gearshift even in those cases where the automatic is quicker.
Regarding scooter vs motorcycle, I'd say a step through is a scooter. I'm not sure where that puts my old 3.5 hp mini bike or a moped. Neither of those are scooters, but it would be a stretch to call them motorcycles.

Ditto on the stick versus auto comment. I detest automatics. I will shift when I damn well want to shift, TYVFM. I hate having to modulate the gas pedal to get the auto trans to downshift or not and--here's where I'm really in the minority--I prefer a stick in stop & go traffic because I can use engine braking to maintain the gap between me & the guy in front of me rather than having to brake as automatics generally require.

You'd never see me on an AE. Not my style, which isn't to say it doesn't work for others. Fine. No sweat. As long as I get my choice you can have yours.

Elsewhere in the thread charismaticmegafauna (1) says that we're in the minority, but I wonder if that's not just an American thing. Are the Europeans still primarily drivers of manual transmissions? I know they used to be. Here's an article that says that the trend is shifting, but manuals still outnumber autos. https://tinyurl.com/2nd4mu

'Course, most American drivers are a buncha semi-literate, apathetic, nearly blind bozos and a stick would require the attention that could be otherwise focused on changing the radio station, typing an email on the PDA, hollering at the kids in the backseat, or whatever. :glare:

Ditto also on the definition being a function of whether or not it's a step through. If you step through, it's a scooter. If you step over, it's a motorcycle.

OK, back to the thread about girlfriends with front end wobbles. :clapping:

Rancho

(1) Note to the mods--is there a limit to the length of screen name?