Something I learned about FJRs & weak batteries

[RadioHowie]

So yesterday, 10/25/09, I finally complete the mechanical restoration of my dead '04. Most already know the story, but a quick update for those who don't.

Cam chain tensioner failure, bent valves, dead Feej, replacement motor installed, 10 month wait.

There. You're up-to-date.

So I finish up the mechanical work and MUST go for a ride. But the bike won't start. Brand new AGM battery from BikeEffects.com back in February. But for the past several weeks, at least, my battery charger has been "borrowed" and is nowhere to be found. I have kids.....figure it out.

Not to be deterred, I move the bike out of the garage, hook up jumper cables to the cage and the bike starts right up! Success...the "new" motor purrs like a kitten. I let the bike idle for about ten minutes to get the bike up to temp, to make sure there are no oil or coolant leaks or anything else potentially ugly or expensive.

No leaks...time to go riding for the first time in 10 months.

Head off down the street for a few quick circuits of the neighborhood. Drive back to the house to grab my wallet, tag, registration and some gear, and head back out.

Naturally, the bike won't start. Battery only showing 9.7 volts on the DIAG screen. No surprise it won't kick over, so I hook up the jumper cables again, fire it up and take off.

A few minutes into the ride, mostly in residential areas where I can't get the revs up, I get the typical "UH-OH" sweep of the tach and speedo, my LCD display goes out, and the engine light comes on. But the bike is still running, but a little roughly. Slight miss and throttle hesitation. But it clears up almost instantly and the gauges and needles come back on.

Head out to some open road to get the revs up so I'm feeding some amps to the battery. Driving along at a brisk, but legal, pace, still well under 5,000rpm, the needles sweep and gauges go out again. Bike hesistates a bit, but keeps running, so I keep driving. Come to a right turn, hit the turn signal while braking and the bike dies...dead as a post right then and there. I'm going too slow to attempt a bump start, so I roll off to the shoulder, and safely come to a stop. Of course, the bike won't start. Gauges dead. Needles don't swing. It's dead. Hoof it back to the house, get one of the kids, the cage and jumper cables, and go rescue the bike. Takes a while before the starter spins over hard enough to start the bike, but it eventually does and I make it home. Back at the house, I put the gauge cluster into DIAG mode and check the voltage. 9.2 volts. As far as enough voltage to operate the bike, the battery is effectively dead. Put the 1amp charger on it and call it a night.

Fast forward to tonight. Get home from work, check the voltage in DIAG mode and there's 12.9 volts. Battery is charged. Cranks on first push on the starter button and go for a ride. It's night, so I'm using the Full Monty of voltage required for nominal running.....headlights, ECU, fuel injectors, coils, plugs, etc. Drive it for about an hour with absolutely NO rough running, misfiring or hesitation of any kind. No "dimming" of the gauge cluster when turning on the directionals or hitting the brakes. The battery is back to normal. Come home, check the voltage.....12.9 volts.

So what's the point of all this? A recent post HERE begun recently reminded me exactly of many slow start/no start problems consistently being reported on the forum, and it made me think about the state of my battery yesterday and the similar symptoms I was experiencing on a known "low" battery. Sweeping needles while running...gauges going out...hestitation, rough running, etc.

Many of you "old timers" already recognize the symptoms of a weak battery, but a lot of 2, 3 and 4 year old model owners experiencing similar problems are worried about future reliability of their bikes.

I believe many of the "electrical gremlin" problems being reported frequently, NOT directly related to bad ground spiders or bad ignition switches, are based in a couple of factors. First of all, the FJR has a woefully inadequate battery considering the normal load imposed by the bike while it's running, much less what it takes to crank it up to begin with. 12 amp hour battery? Really? My 7 cell Maglite has more capacity than a Feejer battery! The OEM Yuasa is rated at 210 CCA. Hell, my 15 year old Honda Civic specs a 500 CCA battery. It's all in the size. VERY little space for a better battery in the Feej. And the third, and I believe, just as much a reason for voltage problems with aging batteries, is the FJR charging system. The alternator puts out 490 watts of power...at 5,000 rpm. So unless you ride for hours at highway speeds in 2nd gear, you're hardly every giving your Feej a good charge through the alternator.

So if your FJR is beginning to act funky in the voltage department, especially if it's more than a year old, look at that battery! Stick it on a "tender" if it's not a daily driver. Short trips are NOT going to charge it back up and the difference between a "good" battery, and one that won't start your bike, is a very narrow range. And if you're running extra load items, like aux lights, heated grips and/or gear, you MUST monitor your voltage.

Yamaha upped the voltage ante in Gen II models in the charging department from 490 to 590 watts, but again, that's at 5,000rpm. I don't know about your FJR, but mine's geared to be going about 80-85mph at 5 grand. Might be a bit conspicuous just to keep your charging system running happy.

 

[r1byker]

Thanks much for this post; very enlightening. I've had my '06 for 3 years so i expect to be looking at a new battery in the next year or two. More immediately, I'll be out of the country for 3 weeks, so this post motivates me to put the Battery Tender on the bike while I'm gone. Thanks again.

And congratulations on a successful transplant!

 

[Bokerfork]

Timely and useful info. Thanks Howie.

Mark

 

[mcatrophy]

Interesting write-up, but ...

My '06, still on its original battery, has never given me a problem.

Particularly during winter, it spends a lot of its riding time on a short city commute, the normal journey is:

Morning:

• Cold start (in unheated garage), let it idle until idle revs down to normal (just as 1 bar of temperature gauge appears);
• 400 yards to end of road;
• 500 yards up to 40mph, may just sneak 5th;
• Trickle down outside of traffic queue for 1/2 mile, perhaps 10-15 mph in first or second, occasionally stopping when traffic comes the other way;
• Dice for a mile swapping lanes amongst cars travelling at 30-40;
• Wait at 2 or 3 sets of traffic lights for ages (perhaps up to 3 minutes), always at engine idle;
• Ride in 20 mph traffic for rest of journey, stopping and starting for traffic and lights;
• Park up, turn off;
• In cold weather I may put on the heated grips (say sub 7C, 45F, depending);

Total journey distance: about 3 miles, time: 12 to 20 minutes (occasionally longer).
Engine revs no higher than about 3000 at any time (except maybe the odd brief excursion for a few seconds).

Evening: Very similar to morning.

This may be repeated twice a week for several weeks with no other riding. Occasionally 3 weeks with no riding due to weather (I don't ride if there's ice or snow on the road), or holidays. Oh yes, our bikes in the UK have an anti-theft immobiliser system that I understand puts a small but continuous load on the battery (don't know what the load is).

Recently I flooded the engine, had to churn the starter for many 10s of seconds to start it, the battery never flagged.

The point? My original battery (I think it's a Yuasa) has never shown any signs of a problem.

I have never had battery problems in cars or bikes (I sold my Trophy after 4 years with its original battery, same sort of winter riding, but it was every work-day).

My impression is that the '06 charging system can maintain the battery with engine running at tick-over, and can easily re-charge the starting loss with quite mild revs over my journey time. I've never felt the need to measure its voltage at any time because it's never given me reason to, I've never had it on a charger of any sort.

But I do respect the battery. I don't leave the ignition on without the engine running, and always turn off the engine with the ignition switch. I have no farkles other than my Tomtom. I even turn the kill switch off if I want to open the glove-box or change gear when the engine's not running, and I turn off the ignition immediately. The only extraneous load is a tyre pump for a few tens of seconds on my (usually weekly) tyre pressure check.

I'm no battery expert, but I feel what may be significant is that in the UK we don't get extremes of temperatures, usual range 2C to 26C (35F to 80F), rarely outside -10C and 35C (14 and 95F).

Just my experence.

I suppose my battery will give up the ghost tonight, now I've posted this. :blink:

 

[cota95]

I concur what RH said. When the battery is low, the bike will run like crap. FYI, 04 got 28 months on first battery, 06 got 23 months. Average of 15-18 thousand miles per year with very few short trips, battery tender during the dead of winter. Battery is just plain too small for the bike, but I'll live with it for the other benefits.

 

[racer]

I have an 04 FJR without ABS and noticed a lot of room below the seat after removing the ride side cover when I upgraded the rear shock. Would a second battery located in this position help this situation? I am thinking it could be dedicated to the starter motor, leaving the other battery to handle the ECU, etc.

How would you go about wiring this?

 

[Grumpy]

Howie, get a battery tender as opposed to a trickle charger. The original battery for me went 5 years and I took it out in anticipation of a trip. You are 100% correct that the battery is a real weakling and a bigger battery would be better. If you'll recall that engine has an electrosucks stator in it that you didn't want. We need it when we have to run heated vests, something you'll not likely ever have to do down there in the oven you live it!

I want a report after you put the '03 ECU in it!

 

[RadioHowie]

Interesting write-up, but ... My '06, still on its original battery, has never given me a problem.

And there are folks who have never had to repace their cam chain tensioner, had their ignition switch fry or had altitude sickness with their ECU.

Heck, my '04 battery nevery game me any problem either, but I replaced it earlier this year when I had my fuel pump problems. It's probably still okay, but my 5 year old battery and your 3 year old battery are probably more the exception than the rule.

I was pointing out that attempting to run my bike normally with a battery that I knew was discharged exactly duplicated the symptoms of many owners on 3 and 4 year old batteries who describe tach and speedo needles doing the sweep and going to zero, LCD panels going blank and/or clock resets and poor running. Same bike, fully charged battery 24 hours later and ALL symptoms disappear and I think there's a positive correlation.

When you say "My '06, still on its original battery, has never given me a problem" you need to touch wood and thank your lucky stars. I sincerely believe you've never had a problem. I never had a problem on my 5 year old battery. But if someone is having voltage issues, I honestly believe the battery is one of the first things to look at, because of the issues inherent in the FJR, i.e., smallish battery for the demand, and a charging system that requires unrealistically high RPM levels for short-trip riding.

 

[RadioHowie]

Howie, get a battery tender as opposed to a trickle charger. The original battery for me went 5 years and I took it out in anticipation of a trip. You are 100% correct that the battery is a real weakling and a bigger battery would be better. If you'll recall that engine has an electrosucks stator in it that you didn't want. We need it when we have to run heated vests, something you'll not likely ever have to do down there in the oven you live it!
I want a report after you put the '03 ECU in it!

Jim, it is a "tender." I simply used "trickle charger" as a generic term. +1 on not wanting the Electrosucks. I can't imagine ever needing the extra amps.

Drove the bike to work today. Probably a bad idea with a 70% rain chance, but at least the '03 ECU is a plug-n-play switchout. You'll be the first to know, but I can't imagine it would run any stronger than it is right now, but you WILL be the first to know.

 

[ionbeam]

...Would a second battery...help this situation? I am thinking it could be dedicated to the starter motor, leaving the other battery to handle the ECU, etc.

That sounds like a good idea, but it doesn't work out that way. In fact your charging system will have to divert more watts just to keep the two batteries charged. Once the engine is running, all the electrical items are being supplied 100% by the charging system. If you overload the electrical system causing the battery voltage to drop below 12.8 volts then battery capacity comes into play. Two batteries won't do a thing for you when the engine is running but they will help during starting and allow you to run things longer with the engine off and the key on.

 

[Crash Cash]

Many of you "old timers" already recognize the symptoms of a weak battery, but a lot of 2, 3 and 4 year old model owners experiencing similar problems are worried about future reliability of their bikes.

Hahaha, some of us oldtimers remember 6V systems and "if God had intended for gentlemen to motoring about after dark, He wouldn't have invented Lucas" and realize the situation could be much, much worse.

Quitcher whinin'!

 

[FJRGuy]

...But if someone is having voltage issues, I honestly believe the battery is one of the first things to look at, because of the issues inherent in the FJR, i.e., smallish battery for the demand, and a charging system that requires unrealistically high RPM levels for short-trip riding.

I have to say... well, Duh! (No offence intended.)

If anyone doesn't realize this, they should let someone else diagnose their problem(s).

The real question becomes why does one have a weak battery? Sure, occasionally there will be a 'bad' battery that just doesn't last no matter what you do, but MOST batteries should last several years without issue if properly maintained. The repeated fully draining of my batteries when parked (key out, all systems off) has prematurely aged my first 2 batteries. There is something wrong with the bike that is yet to be nailed down.

Bottom line is that a weak battery can just be a bad/old battery, but it can also, just as easily, be a symptom of another issue.

 

[mcatrophy]

...When you say "My '06, still on its original battery, has never given me a problem" you need to touch wood and thank your lucky stars. I sincerely believe you've never had a problem. I never had a problem on my 5 year old battery. But if someone is having voltage issues, I honestly believe the battery is one of the first things to look at, because of the issues inherent in the FJR, i.e., smallish battery for the demand, and a charging system that requires unrealistically high RPM levels for short-trip riding.

Well, I'm touching wood (I'm sat at a wooden desk).

One thing I was trying to say was that the Gen II charging system must be significantly superior to the Gen I, not only in its rated output at 5000 rpm, but also at lower "city commuting" rpm. My engine is between 1000 and 2500 most of my commute, so the battery is staying charged without "unrealistically high RPM levels for short-trip riding".

I also believe that if a battery isn't abused, it should last for years (any decent make); the real question is "what is abuse?".

Trying to start on a flat battery will damage the plates, possibly by pulling lead oxide off the plates, possibly by warping the plates, either of which can lead to internal discharging or even a short, both irrecoverable. I wonder how many peeps "try to start it" when the battery is flat, and only when it doesn't do they put it on a charger. I also get the impression that many who use a charger, even a "tender", for long periods suffer from an early battery failure. Only an impression, but I seem to have read many posts that go along the lines "I had the battery on a tender all winter but it wouldn't start the bike/hold a charge, so I had to get a new one".

OK, I know you couldn't wait, but IMEHO you would have been wiser to have charged your battery. Or, if the disappearance of your charger made that impossible (I understand the predicament), use you jumper leads before trying each engine start, until you've given the bike a good enough run to charge the battery. Even connecting the bike's battery to the car's for an hour or two (car engine not running) would put a fair charge into the bike's battery (and no, excessive current wouldn't flow UNLESS the battery already has an internal short).

Hey, this is all too serious, we are supposed to be celebrating your return to riding, best news in months :clapping: :hyper: :drinks: . Now all we've got to do is wait for your race competitor to cross the finishing line ... :construction:

 

[wheatonFJR]

Electricity is magic.

I can't see it...but I know it's there.

 

[beemerdons]

Many of you "old timers" already recognize the symptoms of a weak battery, but a lot of 2, 3 and 4 year old model owners experiencing similar problems are worried about future reliability of their bikes.

Hahaha, some of us oldtimers remember 6V systems and "if God had intended for gentlemen to motoring about after dark, He wouldn't have invented Lucas" and realize the situation could be much, much worse.

Quitcher whinin'!

Crash Cash: RadioHowie and I are so freaking old, 6v systems are downright "modern". Mi hijo, RH and I started riding when motorcycles still had magnetos, not for sissy men! My Norton Atlas 750 had Lucas ARD Competition Magneto and my Harley-Davidson XLCH had Fairbanks-Morse Horizontal Magneto. Never owned a bike with anything except a magneto until I bought my BSA Victor 441 Special. Gals we used to date: Rolled their own tampons and also kick started their vibrators!!!

 

[FJRay]

Many of you "old timers" already recognize the symptoms of a weak battery, but a lot of 2, 3 and 4 year old model owners experiencing similar problems are worried about future reliability of their bikes.

Hahaha, some of us oldtimers remember 6V systems and "if God had intended for gentlemen to motoring about after dark, He wouldn't have invented Lucas" and realize the situation could be much, much worse.

Quitcher whinin'!

Crash Cash: RadioHowie and I are so freaking old, 6v systems are downright "modern". Mi hijo, RH and I started riding when motorcycles still had magnetos, not for sissy men! My Norton Atlas 750 had Lucas ARD Competition Magneto and my Harley-Davidson XLCH had Fairbanks-Morse Horizontal Magneto. Never owned a bike with anything except a magneto until I bought my BSA Victor 441 Special. Gals we used to date: Rolled their own tampons and also kick started their vibrators!!!

One of my daily drivers is still 6V positive ground

Don, Thats to much info on your former dates. I do hope you have raised your standards some over the years but you still hang out with Skooter so its doubtfull.

 

[beemerdons]

Many of you "old timers" already recognize the symptoms of a weak battery, but a lot of 2, 3 and 4 year old model owners experiencing similar problems are worried about future reliability of their bikes.

Hahaha, some of us oldtimers remember 6V systems and "if God had intended for gentlemen to motoring about after dark, He wouldn't have invented Lucas" and realize the situation could be much, much worse.

Quitcher whinin'!

Crash Cash: RadioHowie and I are so freaking old, 6v systems are downright "modern". Mi hijo, RH and I started riding when motorcycles still had magnetos, not for sissy men! My Norton Atlas 750 had Lucas ARD Competition Magneto and my Harley-Davidson XLCH had Fairbanks-Morse Horizontal Magneto. Never owned a bike with anything except a magneto until I bought my BSA Victor 441 Special. Gals we used to date: Rolled their own tampons and also kick started their vibrators!!!

One of my daily drivers is still 6V positive ground

Don, Thats to much info on your former dates. I do hope you have raised your standards some over the years but you still hang out with Skooter so its doubtfull.

FJRay, In the immortal words of Richard Milhouse Nixon: "Let me say this, about that!" After hanging out with SkooterG for 5 years now, I honestly actually consider it "an improvement" to be now hanging out with Niehart and Old Michael! Pathetic!!

 

[BrunDog]

My '05 has been on a tender since it was about 6 months old. After one of my HID ballasts sharted the bed, I took the plastic off (which contains my powerlet) and so the battery tender was not connected for about 2 months. My Scorpio alarm gradually drained the battery, and when I checked it, the open circuit voltage was 4.5V. Tried to charge it with both the tender (no luck) and then a car charger @ 2A (no luck). So, needed to replace the battery about a month ago.

Sometimes these things just crap out after a coupla years - especially in the FL heat! One discharge was all it needed to give up its ghost, despite being tendered most of its life prior.

-BD

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

..."if God had intended for gentlemen to be motoring about after dark, He wouldn't have invented Lucas"