Split: Off-Topic about Octane

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Hotboot

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It's funny how some people think a higher octane rating is better, 93 burns slower than 89 and is meant for high compression engines and those with compressors and turbochargers. If an engine is designed for 89 that's what works best. I doubt Yamaha did studies on fuel but used 89 to tune the OEM ECU and cam timing.

 
Actually, my FJR runs on 87 octane. No need for 89, 91, or 93. Why? Because it is designed to run on 87. I'm glad some of you people aren't allowed to spend my money. Until that happens, I guess I don't care what you run in your bikes. Down by the Dragon, they sell 100 octane at the Chevron.

You guys should all go put that in your bikes. Maybe your FJR will hit 3,000 hp. Probably not.

 
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I swear following the 5 valve gen 1 FZ on fast rides smelled different, optimum was 7000 rpm in a group of 5. Race fuel smells better, costs more and you can tell your friends back home you used it.

Dragon fuel

 
One way to find out is to do a base dyno run on 87, run a full tank through of 93/94 (200 miles should be more than enough for the ECU to make adjustments IF it can) and run it on the dyno again. Any takers?
rolleyes.gif


 
I'll be out riding around on 87 while this gets sorted out. Let me know how the tests go so I can ignore them and happily run 87 anyways.

I am always amazed at the desire to improve on what the engineers designed for. Manual says 87. So run 87. What good do you think you are doing?

Why not set your torque wrench to 20% higher that the shop manual says because tighter must be better. It's a bigger number right? Maybe straight 60 weight oil? Bigger number again.

I know I'm poking Here but seriously, has anyone ever had truly measurable (consistently) improvements by doing any of this stuff?

Enough to make it worth it? Please do share...

Numbers only please.

 
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I tried to find how long time ''months'' can remain the gas in the tank without losing its octanes,but no luck.

Does someone knows about..?

 
One way to find out is to do a base dyno run on 87, run a full tank through of 93/94 (200 miles should be more than enough for the ECU to make adjustments IF it can) and run it on the dyno again. Any takers?
rolleyes.gif
From what I understand, it won't make a difference.

If and engine is designed to take high octane fuel and you use low actane, the ECU should adjust to prevent pre ignition.

If the engine is designed to run low octane and you use high, the ECU doesn't adjust to meet fuel it's not designed for.

Other than preventing knock, or pinging in high temp conditions, high octane fuel will not improve "performance" in an engine designed for low octane.

 
Ahh, the mother of all NEPRT, hydrocarbons and viscosity, pressure and shear stabilized polymerized hydrocarbon chains.

It's funny how some people think a higher octane rating is better, 93 burns slower than 89 and is meant for high compression engines and those with compressors and turbochargers. If an engine is designed for 89 that's what works best. I doubt Yamaha did studies on fuel but used 89 to tune the OEM ECU and cam timing.
1. 93 octane burns slower. Paint a 24" long stripe of 200 octane fuel and ignite one end. It will take 18.3 minutes for the flame to reach the other end.

2. 93 octane burns cooler. Repeat the above stripe of 200 octane fuel and ignite. Because of the very high octane, the fuel is burning so slowly it will be easy to take the flame temperature as it reaches the end of the stripe. It will be around -196°C at that point.

High quality speculation: Yamaha has done extensive studies of fuel for the cylinder head, compression, fuel injection and spark timing design.

[EZ]

Low octane fuel ignites at lower compression temperatures and high octane fuel will resist ignition at higher temperatures caused by higher compression. The fuel must withstand the designed compression and not ignite until the spark plug fires. High octane fuel can withstand much higher compression than the FJR engine produces. That's all folks. Some top tier fuel companies have additive packages in their fuel which may include combustion chamber cleaners, etc but it does nothing for engine performance.

[/EZ]


Light oils like diesel fuel actually has a higher energy content than light fractions like gasoline. Compressed gasses (like air) increase in temperature under compression. In a diesel engine, air is compressed until it is extremely hot, then diesel fuel is injected into the cylinder where the hot compressed gasses ignite the fuel.

An Otto cycle engine compresses the air/fuel in the cylinder to a specific design point, below the ignition temperature, then at the correct mechanical time the spark plug fires and ignites a flame front in the cylinder. If compression temperature ignites the fuel/air mix it will ignite the whole mix at once, across the entire cylinder. Octane is an empirical predictor of where the compression temperature of the fuel/air causes ignition, with the object being to keep the compression from igniting the fuel/air before the spark plug fires.

When either compression temperature or a spark ignites the fuel/air mix the hydrocarbon atom's bonds break and recombine with gasses contained in the inducted air. It is the energy released in breaking the bonds in the hydrocarbons which produces the heat that drives the increasing cylinder pressure which moves the pistons. When a spark plug initiates the ignition it starts a flame front that propagates across the combustion chamber in a controlled progression that has been determined by the engineers that designed the cylinder heads and combustion chamber shape. When there is unintended combustion such as occurs from compression ignition, the fuel/air mix will ignite where ever the temperature is sufficiently high, anyplace in the cylinder and not correctly timed for the position of the piston.

Refining and additives will control how much temperature it takes to initiate the breakdown of the hydrocarbon bonds. A low octane fuel will have hydrocarbon bonds what break down at a lower temperature, a high octane fuel has hydrocarbon bonds which resist higher temperatures before the bonds to break. The energy released by breaking hydrocarbon bonds is fundamental chemistry.

 
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I would argue that the breaking of the carbon-carbon and the carbon-hydrogen bonds is an endothermic process rather than an exothermic process (although I haven't looked up the specific thermodynamic data). The recombination of the fragments with oxygen to produce carbon dioxide, and water vapor does produce lots of heat. As others have said, the energy content difference between regular and higher octane fuel is minimal and performance difference is negligible for an engine that doesn't require the higher octane to prevent pre-ignition.

I use so-called "premium" fuel approximately once per year. This is just before putting the bike away for the 3-4 months of winter layoff. The only reason for this is that, in my area, the higher octane fuels do not contain ethanol.

 
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I would argue that the breaking of the carbon-carbon and the carbon-hydrogen bonds is an exothermic process rather than an endothermic process
wub.png


...The recombination of the fragments with oxygen to produce carbon dioxide, and water vapor does produce lots of heat...
Thanks, I left that open just for you! (Really.) I didn't know how much detail you would want to go into.

 
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I would argue that the breaking of the carbon-carbon and the carbon-hydrogen bonds is an endothermic process rather than an exothermic process (although I haven't looked up the specific thermodynamic data). The recombination of the fragments with oxygen to produce carbon dioxide, and water vapor does produce lots of heat. As others have said, the energy content difference between regular and higher octane fuel is minimal and performance difference is negligible for an engine that doesn't require the higher octane to prevent pre-ignition.I use so-called "premium" fuel approximately once per year. This is just before putting the bike away for the 3-4 months of winter layoff. The only reason for this is that, in my area, the higher octane fuels do not contain ethanol.
That there is about the only sane reason to run high octane fuel in your bike. The rest are just unicorns and Leprechauns.

 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="HotRodZilla" data-cid="1296090" data-time="1458306468"><p>

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="RossKean" data-cid="1296080" data-time="1458303477"><p><br />

I would argue that the breaking of the carbon-carbon and the carbon-hydrogen bonds is an endothermic process rather than an exothermic process (although I haven't looked up the specific thermodynamic data). The recombination of the fragments with oxygen to produce carbon dioxide, and water vapor does produce lots of heat. As others have said, the energy content difference between regular and higher octane fuel is minimal and performance difference is negligible for an engine that doesn't require the higher octane to prevent pre-ignition.I use so-called "premium" fuel approximately once per year. This is just before putting the bike away for the 3-4 months of winter layoff. <strong class='bbc'>The only reason for this is that, in my area, the higher octane fuels do not contain ethanol.</strong></p></blockquote>

That there is about the only sane reason to run high octane fuel in your bike. The rest are just unicorns and Leprechauns.</p></blockquote>

All true. Now, in the Republic of illinoisistan, I can't get ethanol free. Even premium has the crap.

I could drive (about a half tank away) and get some but, that obviously makes no sense.

But, after reading all of the science, I have come to a decision.

Due to the carbon bond breakdown creating a slower flame front resulting in a lower flash point creating an environment within the engine where fuel molecules form bonds that change the molecular output of the monoxide, I have decided to still run 87 octane as the designers intended.

Glad this has been sorted out.

 
I run Shell Premium almost without exception, for reason #11:

https://www.shell.ca/en/products-services/shell-for-drivers/fuels/shell-vpower/faq.html

My understanding as well is that ethanol releases less energy than gasoline so in this case, hi-octane does produce more power.

I also find the FJ to notoriously ping when you lug the engine. Not that I make a habit of this, but it does occasionally happen. When I am in the States and run low octane (because Shell V-Power DOES contain ethanol in the States), I notice a tendency to ping sooner on the lower octane.

Incidentally, I also run hi octane in my SUV when towing heavy loads. Unlike most bike, cars have anti-knock sensors and ****** the timing (maybe it's advance - I dunno) so you cannot tell if would you could benefit from higher octane. When I was a teenager and a keener, driving down main street with windows down and Lionel Richie blaring on the Alpine and the Molson Canadian beer tap handle that conveniently was the same thread as my stick shift on that pimpin hot '79 Accord, I used to run premium, thinking it would increase my horsepower from a paltry 57 to somewhere in the 4 digit range - much like today's pimple poppers do with those useless tailpipes on their Civics, I did finally measure mileage several times and found it did nothing; so, I stopped. After watching some motoring show and learning about knock sensors (about the same time I traded in the Alpine or something more practical - like a boat), I did caompare mileages on regular versus premium on my then (much newer) Accord (sans the stick shift mod) whilst towing and found there to be a stark difference.

Edit: spelling srrors.

 
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In a properly managed engine designed for use with ethanol, the presence of ethanol will not decrease the amount of power available but will increase the amount of fuel required to produce that power. A few percent increase in consumption for the E-10.

 
I didn't see anyone mention that, in an engine without the higher compression that required higher octane ratings, using it (in engines designed to use regular) can (because of the slower burn rate above) can leave more residue.

If so, then isn't there the chance that residue builds up. Doesn't decreasing the volume available within the combustion chamber? So wouldn't lower volume (with hardware and software that thinks the engine still meets spec) lead to higher compression, eventually requiring premium to avoid knocking?

So does it become self fulfilling that an engine forced to use a higher octane than it needs might eventually require that higher octane? In a way, the person wasting money on unneeded octane levels creates a situation where they need that very thing? So then have to spend more for fuel than they really should have?

Hmmm?

 
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I didn't see anyone mention that, in an engine without the higher compression that required higher octane ratings, using it (in engines designed to use regular) can (because of the slower burn rate above) can leave more residue.
If so, then isn't there the chance that residue builds up. Doesn't decreasing the volume available within the combustion chamber? So wouldn't lower volume (with hardware and software that thinks the engine still meets spec) lead to higher compression, eventually requiring premium to avoid knocking?

So does it become self fulfilling that an engine forced to use a higher octane than it needs might eventually require that higher octane? In a way, the person wasting money on unneeded octane levels creates a situation where they need that very thing? So then have to spend more for fuel than they really should have?

Hmmm?
Well, hmm. Back in the 1980s, there were problems with the injectors regularly clogging and carbon build-up in the cylinders using any grade gas. Car manufacturers began recommending specific brands of gas with good detergency. This caused the government to specify minimum additives amounts due to all the problems service shops were seeing.

The world's major car makers (at the time) BMW, General Motors, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz have managed to get standards written for better additive packages referred to as Top Tier detergent gasoline.

To make a short story long, if you use a name brand fuel, especially a high octane fuel you get the extra detergency package which will offset the deposits created by using necessarily high octane fuel. (There is actually a lot more to the Top Tier gas story.)

 
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I love it when everyone I ride with insists on "only the best" and uses the highest octane available. It leaves the 87 octane pump open for me -- no waiting in line.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A short story related to the subject -- somewhat

My wife used to drive an 85 LTD II, and the dealer told her it'd run better on 91 octane. I argued the point, but she insisted on using 91 from then on. I, being a good husband and wanting to keep her happy, lied to her. I always took our cars around the corner to the local Texaco to fill them up (we lived in civilization then), so I continued to use 87 and just let her believe I was using 91. I had told my best friend about it but nobody else -- I knew I could trust him. He was over one day tinkering with bikes with me when she came in with the car. She got out and as she walked through the garage she said "That car sure runs better since we started using premium fuel." I never did explain why he thought that was so damned funny.

 
On this same note, I decided to make a change to my vehciles. I use air in the tires, and I breath oxygen. Since that air must have lots of oxygen in it, to sustain life, more must be better. I decided I would fill all my tires with pure O2. I could have used nitrogen, but we can't breath Nitrogen, so O2 it is.

Expensive, but it sounds cool, so it must be better.

 
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