(Split) Shifting when bike is stopped

[N4HHE]

It's my understanding that the base stock used in synthetic oils tends to be lower viscosity. I've never like the feeling of these oils in my bikes. YMMV

5W-40 is a 5 weight oil which does not thin worse than a 40 weight oil at 212°F. At 212°F it is exactly the same viscosity as a straight-weight 40.

I agree, but it is my understanding that the additives used to make that 5w oil act like 40w oil at those temps breaks down over time and the oil starts reverting back to its 5w base stock characteristics. I've also read that if you start with a 10w or 15w base the oil won't revert, over time, to characteristics as low as the oil which starts out as 5w.

I have no claims of being an oil expert. My opinions are based on what I've read and personal experience over a couple of 100k miles of riding.

Somehow the difference between 5W and 5 weight oil has escaped your detection. A 5W oil only pours at the same cold temperatures as a 5 weight oil. 5W says nothing about the oil's viscosity at any other temperature but "winter" temperatures where the most important property is whether the oil will pour and pump to get where it is needed.

The SAE/API multi viscosity specification is written 5W-40, not 5-40, because it represents viscosity at two different temperatures. 5W says it pours at a temperature as cold as an oil which is 5 weight at 212°F. But the -40 says 5W-40 has the same viscosity at 212°F as a historical 40 weight oil. "W" stands for "winter", not "weight."

Synthetic manufacturing of motor oil has taught oil engineers that base oil does not have to have the classic temperature vs viscosity plot as did refined oils of 80 years ago. If the designer bothers and is willing to make the effort during manufacture a base oil can be made which thins less at higher temperatures and thickens less at lower temperatures. This is how 5W-50 and 5W-40 are made practical. Viscosity Improvers (VI) can be added to edit this viscosity/temperature plot but VI's break down in use resulting in an oil with shorter life than desired.

We know nothing about how much VI is used in any given oil. "Synthetic" doesn't answer this question, exactly as much VI is used as the designer selects. This loops back to my recurring theme, "synthetic does not matter, is not a performance specification." What matters is actual performance specifications and testing. "Synthetic" is spun by marketing to make you think it promises things they can't be held to. The whole point is to loosen your purse strings without earning your business. A superior motor oil can be made synthetically, but just because synthetic processes were used in manufacture does not ensure a superior product.

 

[AdamK]

It's my understanding that the base stock used in synthetic oils tends to be lower viscosity. I've never like the feeling of these oils in my bikes. YMMV

5W-40 is a 5 weight oil which does not thin worse than a 40 weight oil at 212°F. At 212°F it is exactly the same viscosity as a straight-weight 40.

I agree, but it is my understanding that the additives used to make that 5w oil act like 40w oil at those temps breaks down over time and the oil starts reverting back to its 5w base stock characteristics. I've also read that if you start with a 10w or 15w base the oil won't revert, over time, to characteristics as low as the oil which starts out as 5w.

I have no claims of being an oil expert. My opinions are based on what I've read and personal experience over a couple of 100k miles of riding.

Somehow the difference between 5W and 5 weight oil has escaped your detection. A 5W oil only pours at the same cold temperatures as a 5 weight oil. 5W says nothing about the oil's viscosity at any other temperature but "winter" temperatures where the most important property is whether the oil will pour and pump to get where it is needed.

The SAE/API multi viscosity specification is written 5W-40, not 5-40, because it represents viscosity at two different temperatures. 5W says it pours at a temperature as cold as an oil which is 5 weight at 212°F. But the -40 says 5W-40 has the same viscosity at 212°F as a historical 40 weight oil. "W" stands for "winter", not "weight."

Synthetic manufacturing of motor oil has taught oil engineers that base oil does not have to have the classic temperature vs viscosity plot as did refined oils of 80 years ago. If the designer bothers and is willing to make the effort during manufacture a base oil can be made which thins less at higher temperatures and thickens less at lower temperatures. This is how 5W-50 and 5W-40 are made practical. Viscosity Improvers (VI) can be added to edit this viscosity/temperature plot but VI's break down in use resulting in an oil with shorter life than desired.

We know nothing about how much VI is used in any given oil. "Synthetic" doesn't answer this question, exactly as much VI is used as the designer selects. This loops back to my recurring theme, "synthetic does not matter, is not a performance specification." What matters is actual performance specifications and testing. "Synthetic" is spun by marketing to make you think it promises things they can't be held to. The whole point is to loosen your purse strings without earning your business. A superior motor oil can be made synthetically, but just because synthetic processes were used in manufacture does not ensure a superior product.

No, I think I get the difference. From what I've read, both technical and anecdotal, there seems to be a correlation between what some people are "feeling" in their transmissions and the use of oils which start as 5 weight and have Viscosity Improvers (VI) added to get them to 40 weight at operating temperature. If it made no difference why are there no 5W-x oils recommended in the owners manual?

Bottom line is I've always felt my bikes have shifted smoother with 15W-x oils and I'll continue to use them. Could be my imagination I guess.....

 

[Spork]

It's my understanding that the base stock used in synthetic oils tends to be lower viscosity. I've never like the feeling of these oils in my bikes. YMMV

5W-40 is a 5 weight oil which does not thin worse than a 40 weight oil at 212°F. At 212°F it is exactly the same viscosity as a straight-weight 40.

I agree, but it is my understanding that the additives used to make that 5w oil act like 40w oil at those temps breaks down over time and the oil starts reverting back to its 5w base stock characteristics. I've also read that if you start with a 10w or 15w base the oil won't revert, over time, to characteristics as low as the oil which starts out as 5w.

I have no claims of being an oil expert. My opinions are based on what I've read and personal experience over a couple of 100k miles of riding.

Somehow the difference between 5W and 5 weight oil has escaped your detection. A 5W oil only pours at the same cold temperatures as a 5 weight oil. 5W says nothing about the oil's viscosity at any other temperature but "winter" temperatures where the most important property is whether the oil will pour and pump to get where it is needed.

The SAE/API multi viscosity specification is written 5W-40, not 5-40, because it represents viscosity at two different temperatures. 5W says it pours at a temperature as cold as an oil which is 5 weight at 212°F. But the -40 says 5W-40 has the same viscosity at 212°F as a historical 40 weight oil. "W" stands for "winter", not "weight."

Synthetic manufacturing of motor oil has taught oil engineers that base oil does not have to have the classic temperature vs viscosity plot as did refined oils of 80 years ago. If the designer bothers and is willing to make the effort during manufacture a base oil can be made which thins less at higher temperatures and thickens less at lower temperatures. This is how 5W-50 and 5W-40 are made practical. Viscosity Improvers (VI) can be added to edit this viscosity/temperature plot but VI's break down in use resulting in an oil with shorter life than desired.

We know nothing about how much VI is used in any given oil. "Synthetic" doesn't answer this question, exactly as much VI is used as the designer selects. This loops back to my recurring theme, "synthetic does not matter, is not a performance specification." What matters is actual performance specifications and testing. "Synthetic" is spun by marketing to make you think it promises things they can't be held to. The whole point is to loosen your purse strings without earning your business. A superior motor oil can be made synthetically, but just because synthetic processes were used in manufacture does not ensure a superior product.

No, I think I get the difference. From what I've read, both technical and anecdotal, there seems to be a correlation between what some people are "feeling" in their transmissions and the use of oils which start as 5 weight and have Viscosity Improvers (VI) added to get them to 40 weight at operating temperature. If it made no difference why are there no 5W-x oils recommended in the owners manual?

Bottom line is I've always felt my bikes have shifted smoother with 15W-x oils and I'll continue to use them. Could be my imagination I guess.....

You're not the only one.

I have used Rotella T6 on all my bikes, and on the Japanese bikes it has made every bike's tranny rougher; the only bikes that didn't care/were unaffected were:

• 2013 Triumph Street Triple (shifted with a smooth "click" every time)
• 2004 BMW K1200GT (dry clutch and shifted with a smooth click every time)

For my new bikes (2014 Super Tenere and 2013 FJR) the clunking into first and notchy upshifts continues, so I think I'm going to use a motorcycle 10-40 synthetic and see what happens.

 

[AdamK]

For my new bikes (2014 Super Tenere and 2013 FJR) the clunking into first and notchy upshifts continues, so I think I'm going to use a motorcycle 10-40 synthetic and see what happens.

You should try the Rotella T conventional 15W-40. It's so much cheaper than the Mobil 1 motorcycle 10w-40 that you can change your oil every 2k miles and still save money!

 

[Spork]

For my new bikes (2014 Super Tenere and 2013 FJR) the clunking into first and notchy upshifts continues, so I think I'm going to use a motorcycle 10-40 synthetic and see what happens.

You should try the Rotella T conventional 15W-40. It's so much cheaper than the Mobil 1 motorcycle 10w-40 that you can change your oil every 2k miles and still save money!

True, i might try that next, but I am unsure if Shell said that the 15W was also unofficially JA rated (im fairly confident that that the T6 was).

 

[AdamK]

For my new bikes (2014 Super Tenere and 2013 FJR) the clunking into first and notchy upshifts continues, so I think I'm going to use a motorcycle 10-40 synthetic and see what happens.

You should try the Rotella T conventional 15W-40. It's so much cheaper than the Mobil 1 motorcycle 10w-40 that you can change your oil every 2k miles and still save money!

True, i might try that next, but I am unsure if Shell said that the 15W was also unofficially JA rated (im fairly confident that that the T6 was).

It is JASO MA. I found the following text stating T6 was not JASO MA but it's from 2008. I'm almost positive it's JASO MA now.

_____________

Here is the email from a Rotella engineer that I found on the Shell forums.

"We recently ran the JASO MA friction test on Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40, Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 (CI-4) and our soon to be introduced (within the next 2 months) Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 CJ-4.

All three oils passed the wet clutch friction test. Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 (CI-4) has more than 1.2% ash (JASO MA spec limit) so it can not be classified as JASO MA. However, Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 and our soon to be introduced Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 CJ-4 do meet JASO MA."

If you have any additional questions please call us at 800-231-6950.

Thank you for your interest in Shell products."

Richard Moore

Staff Engineer

Shell Global Solutions (US) Inc.

 

[thewrenchbender]

Don't have a copy of the label in front of me, but Shell says that T3 "meets the requirements"-but you are correct, it is not on the official JASO MA list.

Ran it in my '08, run it in my '15. Based on reports (and oil analysis) from people that put more miles on a FJR in a year than I will in 10. Will continue to run it until Blackstone tells me it isn't doing the job-or my operations move out of its "approved" temp range.

And I didn't get the '15 new (600 miles) but bought YES and my service records will show that I am using it.

 

[Canadian Steve]

I will wade in here with a little documented info and some IMO info. Random thoughts etc

I ran 15/40 RT for 130,000km exclusively in a 99 Concours with no problems (this with quite steep ramped high lift custom cams). Bike did not use ANY oil or show any cam lobe wear when I sold it this year.

I have a friend who has 115,000 MILES and counting on a 09 C14 run exclusively on T6 with NO issues and really nice report at his first valve check done at 100K miles.....

Now for more relevant info.

I have run 10/40 yamalube, 20/50 yamalube, as well as 15/50 syn yamalube(stupid expensive, like $16L) in my 14 Gen 3. (all changes at 6000km). Engine much quieter(3000-4000rpm light throttle) and shift smoother on the two latter heavier ones.

I have also run 2 intervals with T6. Start up provides instant oil flow in cooler weather and this is noticeable. OTOH it seems light in 90F and higher temps and shifting is quite clacky/notchy . Also the FJR gear whine/howl seems much worse with the T6.

So much so that I sent a sample blackstone Labs for analysis. (and used T6 for my 3rd consectutive change ....had not yet received the results). TBN indicating additive life for extending intervals was very good at 7.2 (>1.0 is cause for concern) all other results GOOD except (my concern) the oil had sheared to approx. a 30W rating.

On discussion with Blackstone, I learned that according to their database 70+% of all there FJR data show this shearing tendency regardless of brand. The 15W or 20W base oils do not show this shear tendency as severely and are much closer to their 40/50 weight numbers.

Since my bike really seems quieter and shifts smoother on 15/50 or 20/50 , I am going to continue with some Blackstone tests .

The current 5/40 RT, I am going to sample /change at 3000km(half the normal interval) and see how much it has sheared at that point. I am also going to get samples of 15/40 RT at 6000km intervals as well as 20/50. After getting these results (which will put me at about 60000km) I will use that which shifts best and shears the least, cutting down on the FJR whine.

I always hesitated to use 20/50 in cooler weather but it is looking like this or 15/40 will result in shearing not dropping to a 30W or less which is cause of the notchy shifting.

The cost of doing this is really not worth it and T6 would probably be fine for the life of the engine, but now that I know shearing based on real numbers (which was always my concern with T6 or any 5W ), I will not be totally satisfied until I know the answers based on the above oils in MY bike.

I regret never sampling the 15/40 used in my C10 , it would have saved some time here.

Also of note. Blackstone said that ALL the 10/40 info they had on FJR showed shearing to 30W or less. This IMO is good reason to NOT use 10/40 as it has more VI improvers added than any other grade, and they still do not maintain grade in the high shear oil degrader known as the FJR straight cut gears tranny gears and the (IMHO the biggest culprit)bevel drive.

I will post up more results as I get more testing completed as time passes, for those that may be interested.

 

[Spork]

I will wade in here with a little documented info and some IMO info. Random thoughts etc

I ran 15/40 RT for 130,000km exclusively in a 99 Concours with no problems (this with quite steep ramped high lift custom cams). Bike did not use ANY oil or show any cam lobe wear when I sold it this year.

I have a friend who has 115,000 MILES and counting on a 09 C14 run exclusively on T6 with NO issues and really nice report at his first valve check done at 100K miles.....

Now for more relevant info.

I have run 10/40 yamalube, 20/50 yamalube, as well as 15/50 syn yamalube(stupid expensive, like $16L) in my 14 Gen 3. (all changes at 6000km). Engine much quieter(3000-4000rpm light throttle) and shift smoother on the two latter heavier ones.

I have also run 2 intervals with T6. Start up provides instant oil flow in cooler weather and this is noticeable. OTOH it seems light in 90F and higher temps and shifting is quite clacky/notchy . Also the FJR gear whine/howl seems much worse with the T6.

So much so that I sent a sample blackstone Labs for analysis. (and used T6 for my 3rd consectutive change ....had not yet received the results). TBN indicating additive life for extending intervals was very good at 7.2 (>1.0 is cause for concern) all other results GOOD except (my concern) the oil had sheared to approx. a 30W rating.

On discussion with Blackstone, I learned that according to their database 70+% of all there FJR data show this shearing tendency regardless of brand. The 15W or 20W base oils do not show this shear tendency as severely and are much closer to their 40/50 weight numbers.

Since my bike really seems quieter and shifts smoother on 15/50 or 20/50 , I am going to continue with some Blackstone tests .

The current 5/40 RT, I am going to sample /change at 3000km(half the normal interval) and see how much it has sheared at that point. I am also going to get samples of 15/40 RT at 6000km intervals as well as 20/50. After getting these results (which will put me at about 60000km) I will use that which shifts best and shears the least, cutting down on the FJR whine.

I always hesitated to use 20/50 in cooler weather but it is looking like this or 15/40 will result in shearing not dropping to a 30W or less which is cause of the notchy shifting.

The cost of doing this is really not worth it and T6 would probably be fine for the life of the engine, but now that I know shearing based on real numbers (which was always my concern with T6 or any 5W ), I will not be totally satisfied until I know the answers based on the above oils in MY bike.

I regret never sampling the 15/40 used in my C10 , it would have saved some time here.

Also of note. Blackstone said that ALL the 10/40 info they had on FJR showed shearing to 30W or less. This IMO is good reason to NOT use 10/40 as it has more VI improvers added than any other grade, and they still do not maintain grade in the high shear oil degrader known as the FJR straight cut gears tranny gears and the (IMHO the biggest culprit)bevel drive.

I will post up more results as I get more testing completed as time passes, for those that may be interested.

good info.

I'll probably switch to Rotella 15W40 when I switch out this winter for next spring. It's interesting to hear about the shearing behavior of 10w40 vs 5w40 as I thought that the farther apart the two numbers were the less the shear strength of the oils. It appears that 15W is good down to about -15C (5F) so that's good enough for my tastes since im not riding in anything colder anyway.

 

[AdamK]

good info.
I'll probably switch to Rotella 15W40 when I switch out this winter for next spring. It's interesting to hear about the shearing behavior of 10w40 vs 5w40 as I thought that the farther apart the two numbers were the less the shear strength of the oils. It appears that 15W is good down to about -15C (5F) so that's good enough for my tastes since im not riding in anything colder anyway.

I just found 1 gallon jugs of this oil at Home Depot for $14 each. Some of the fancy synthetic MC oils are almost that much for a quart!

 

[eflyguy]

Not sure if I've shared this info on this forum, but I accidently left Rotella Dino in my 01 FZ1 for 7000 miles. At the time, I was using Blackstone labs, and it came back well within spec. The only indicator that it was run longer was the fact it was a little dirty - which doesn't hurt anything (the filter gets rid of anything big enough to cause damage)..

So although I have a case of T6 Syn. (sale at Autozone, about $10/gallon), I won't go out of my way to buy syn. again. I change every vehicle - cars, bikes, truck - at around 5k intervals now. So much easier to keep up with (30k, 35k, 40k, ..).

 

[Lou D]

There was a post on shifting into first on the new FJR. I experienced this too. Whe the bike is stopped, it just doesn`t want to go into first. My dealer has no knowledge of this problem and keeps telling me to rock a little. Really? One member suggested an oil change which I did and switched to full synthetic. Since then, it has shifted every time. No more rocking!