That same damn front end clunk question....

[art miller]

I now have 9K on my original Bridgestone tires. On my recent trip to the PNW I noticed a slight handle bar wobble at approx. 40mph and under. No wobble at higher speeds. No front end clunk. I had the head re-torqued at 600 mile service. I believe the low speed wobble is the tread pattern on the Bridgestone front tire. The tire is wearing remarkably even and there is still nearly 3/32 tread remaining. I'll ditch them at 10K and put on a set of PR2's, my go to tire of choice.

 

[Iris]

It was my new tire (Pirelli Angel GT) that was causing the wobbles. Got a new one (same brand) and all is better.

As far as the clunk, still not certain. I double checked the stearing head and it's torqued properly.

 

[RossKean]

No ideas on the "clunk" but I share your experience with the wobble with the Angel GT. I have heard of at least two others who had problems with this tire. Mine didn't start with the head-shake until 3,000 miles or so and it was the first and only time I experienced wobbles with this bike. Let us know whether it behaves itself until end-of-life.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Near the end of its life, my Angel ST had an ugly wobble. Bad enough that the whole bike had vibrations at 50+. It was a decent tire, but dayum!!

Point is, many people don't seem to realize how much a funky tire can affect handling, wobble and noise. That'd be the first thing I replaced before tearing into anything.

 

[McRuss]

Time to wake this old topic! I was told by my dealer that my steering head bearings were bad (he quoted me $1000 to fix them....) He demonstrated the issue by holding the brake and rocking the bike against the suspension. Sure enough, there was the unmistakeable 'clunk' of loose steering head bearings. So I decided to replace them with Allballs tapered rollers. Pulled the old bearings which didn't look that bad and replaced them with the tapered rollers. I think it is a worthwhile swap IF you have any issues with the OEM bearings (my '09 AE has 66,011 miles and I lubed the bearings once.)

BUT, big BUT, I still have the clunk! I retorqued the bearings twice, the last time using figures from a number of folks who have done the tapered bearings. Still there. I lifted the front and shook the forks/wheel assembly and there is no play. But the clunk is there when I lock the brake and pump the suspension. I don't think it is as bad as it was before but now I'm fairly sure it is not the steering head bearings.

So I'm wondering if there has been any new findings since this thread went quiet one year ago.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Are you sure that clunk isn't your floating rotors bumping into something? Try this: Put ear plugs in, or better yet, ear buds with good music. Then fire up the bike and ride it above 5000 RPM for a full tank. Report back if you hear any clunking.

 

[TomInPA]

Eric solved his problem a year ago, and this is still going on?

 

[Uncle Hud]

HotRodZilla posted: Are you sure that clunk isn't your floating rotors bumping into something? Try this: Put ear plugs in, or better yet, ear buds with good music. Then fire up the bike and ride it above 5000 RPM for a full tank. Report back if you hear any clunking.

Like. (Daily quota is WAY too low.)

 

[mcatrophy]

...BUT, big BUT, I still have the clunk! I retorqued the bearings twice, the last time using figures from a number of folks who have done the tapered bearings. Still there. I lifted the front and shook the forks/wheel assembly and there is no play. But the clunk is there when I lock the brake and pump the suspension. I don't think it is as bad as it was before but now I'm fairly sure it is not the steering head bearings.

...

Are you sure that clunk isn't your floating rotors bumping into something? ...

Happens on all three of my FJRs.

Put the bike on its centre stand, sit on the ground facing the front wheel, grasp the brake disk with both hands as if it's a car steering wheel. Now rapidly turn the steering-wheel disk too and fro, see if you can hear the clunk. Repeat for the other side.

The "front brake on, push and pull on the handlebars" test would do the same thing to the brake rotors, it can't really tell the difference between brake rotor float (which is totally harmless) and bad steering bearings (which isn't harmless), they sound and feel very similar.

For steering bearings, put the bike on its centre stand, stick the wife on the back or jack up under the headers (with a wooden platform to spread the load) so that the front wheel is off the ground. Sit in front of the bike, grasp both forks, push and pull the forks. If your can hear/feel any play, that's your steering bearing (or your forks are b*gg*r*d).

I have to use the "jack up under the headers" method, my wife doesn't weigh enough to lift the front. I add this in case she ever reads this and justifyably takes offence.

 

[McRuss]

...BUT, big BUT, I still have the clunk! I retorqued the bearings twice, the last time using figures from a number of folks who have done the tapered bearings. Still there. I lifted the front and shook the forks/wheel assembly and there is no play. But the clunk is there when I lock the brake and pump the suspension. I don't think it is as bad as it was before but now I'm fairly sure it is not the steering head bearings.

...

Are you sure that clunk isn't your floating rotors bumping into something? ...

Happens on all three of my FJRs.

Put the bike on its centre stand, sit on the ground facing the front wheel, grasp the brake disk with both hands as if it's a car steering wheel. Now rapidly turn the steering-wheel disk too and fro, see if you can hear the clunk. Repeat for the other side.

The "front brake on, push and pull on the handlebars" test would do the same thing to the brake rotors, it can't really tell the difference between brake rotor float (which is totally harmless) and bad steering bearings (which isn't harmless), they sound and feel very similar.

For steering bearings, put the bike on its centre stand, stick the wife on the back or jack up under the headers (with a wooden platform to spread the load) so that the front wheel is off the ground. Sit in front of the bike, grasp both forks, push and pull the forks. If your can hear/feel any play, that's your steering bearing (or your forks are b*gg*r*d).

I have to use the "jack up under the headers" method, my wife doesn't weigh enough to lift the front. I add this in case she ever reads this and justifyably takes offence.

Checked the rotors and the calipers (to make sure I didn't forget to torque them down), put it on the jack (wife too light too) and no play in the forks/steering head. Actually released a little torque (down to 15#) on the steering head bearings as the 'side to side' movement of the wheel was TOO tight (at 26#.)

Here is where I think the problem is, and I don't have a solution yet: the top piece (called 'crown, handle' by Yamaha) where the bars attach, does not sit down squarely over the center shaft and upper fork tubes (terminology escapes me here), acts like it is rocking on the locking nuts (the purpose of a rubber washer between the lock nuts eludes me as well.)

Just watched a fairly recent video of the process of torquing the bearings and noticed what I suspected: much more of the threads of the center 'post' visible above the 'crown, handle'. I wonder if the difference is due to the roller bearings vs stock balls? Anyone know (or care)? I'm nervous about putting 85# of torque on the top nut with so few threads engaged (3/8" max).

 

[infrared]

Here is where I think the problem is, and I don't have a solution yet: the top piece (called 'crown, handle' by Yamaha) where the bars attach, does not sit down squarely over the center shaft and upper fork tubes (terminology escapes me here), acts like it is rocking on the locking nuts (the purpose of a rubber washer between the lock nuts eludes me as well.)Just watched a fairly recent video of the process of torquing the bearings and noticed what I suspected: much more of the threads of the center 'post' visible above the 'crown, handle'. I wonder if the difference is due to the roller bearings vs stock balls? Anyone know (or care)? I'm nervous about putting 85# of torque on the top nut with so few threads engaged (3/8" max).

This really does not sound right. You have roller bearings? Who did the work? Wish I could look at what you have there. I kinda hate to ask this question, but from what you have said, it seems like one possibility. Was the bottom bearing race removed from the fork assembly, before the the rollers went on?

There really are not many things that could be wrong, to make the threaded post come up short as you described. That bottom bearing race can be a bear to remove, and somebody might even think it is not a separate piece from the post. Some people here have cut and split the bottom race to get it off. Check some of the older posts here on replacing the steering head bearings, and see what they say about that pesky bottom race. This guy has pix:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/13061-tapered-steering-head-bearing-install-complete-heres-how/?do=findComment&comment=159666

Cheers,

Infrared

 

[HotRodZilla]

^^Infared said what I was thinking. If your threads aren't engaging correctly something's wrong. That lower bearing race is a prime suspect.

If it were me, I would take it apart, ensure that space is 100% clear of parts, burrs, and dirt. Then I'd install a new set of Timkins tapered bearings and put it back together. My bet is all your problems go away. The time to do it can be a hassle, but bearings are cheap.

 

[BanjoBoy]

^^Infared said what I was thinking. If your threads aren't engaging correctly something's wrong. That lower bearing race is a prime suspect.
If it were me, I would take it apart, ensure that space is 100% clear of parts, burrs, and dirt. Then I'd install a new set of Timkins tapered bearings and put it back together. My bet is all your problems go away. The time to do it can be a hassle, but bearings are cheap.

Why Timkin 'n not All Balls?

 

[TomInPA]

BanjoBoy, I originally perceived the Timken bearings as superior and used them in another project some years ago. All Balls just makes it too easy with the all-inclusive 22-1003 kit that has the seals and bearings packaged together, so that is what I bought. Certainly the fact Timken is U.S. manufacturing with a steel cage, contributes to the perception of quality. I have heard that All Balls are a repackager of bearings (thus the kits), and primarily sources Chinese manufactured goods like KML. This does not make them inherently inferior, but perception is reality.

I think the need to replace steering bearings is pretty rare on the FJR, but either Timken or AB should work for a long time.

 

[HotRodZilla]

^^Infared said what I was thinking. If your threads aren't engaging correctly something's wrong. That lower bearing race is a prime suspect.If it were me, I would take it apart, ensure that space is 100% clear of parts, burrs, and dirt. Then I'd install a new set of Timkins tapered bearings and put it back together. My bet is all your problems go away. The time to do it can be a hassle, but bearings are cheap.

Why Timkin 'n not All Balls?

Ask any machinist in a farming area what bearings they use. OR, ask a machinist that does any government contracting. Don't use cheese dick bearings. You get what you pay for.

 

[infrared]

This old thread has pictures, and the tapered bearing is shown as being installed over the old lower race. Bad Plan, absolutely.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/24240-installing-the-all-balls-tapered-steering-bearings/?do=findComment&comment=284100

After a brief unseen (PM) discussion, the poster decides to let the dealer remove the lower race from the steering post. Somebody who did not read all six posts might think that installation was good to go as pictured, and do things the same way. I really wish the PM that went by unseen had been in the public discussion, so others would see it clearly and take that advice.

If anybody has links to help removing the lower steering head race, please post them. That process can be a bear, on any bike. I like the idea of adding roller bearings there, and I really like Timken bearings, any time a new bearing is needed.

Cheers,

Infrared

 

[McRuss]

Geez.....

I only have 168 posts, not over 5,000, but I'm on my second FJR and around 30 motorcycles with many steering head bearing changes behind me.

I DID THE WORK.....I trust me more than 95% of the 'mechanics' out there.

And I know enough to remove the lower race (with dremel tool and chisel to split it....not not easy but it will come off.) Lower tapered rollers were pressed on and were down against the seal. Upper and lower races were driven out and replaced with the All Balls races for the tapered bearings. AS NEAR AS I COULD TELL they were seated completely using a bearing race installation tool.

But you are right about one thing: it doesn't look right. And it is going to come apart again. But I'm not going to replace a perfectly good set of roller bearings. Not yet anyway.

All Balls may be Chinese but I've used them before with no problems (and they do make it easy with the kits.) IF worse comes to worse, I'll replace the whole damn works with OEM rollers. I'm sure they would last the life of the bike, or at least for another 66,000 miles.

 

[Fred W]

One way that the number of threads on top of the upper triple clamp would be reduced was if the stack-up height of the new All Balls roller bearings was more than the OEM bearings. You should be able to measure that pretty easily and compare to the stock bearing height, if you can get one for reference. Are you sure that you got the right bearings in the kit?

As for the rubber o-ring, the way those castellated preload nuts are supposed to work is that the bottom most nut wants to be tightened to a relatively low final torque setting of only 13 ft-lbs (tip, don't use your 1/2" drive torque wrench for that). The upper castle nut and o-ring are then just snugged up finger tight against the lower one, and the notches aligned with the lower one. How tight that upper castle nut is doesn't really matter because that is not what locks the lower nut from loosening.

What locks everything is the "lock washer" with the two long tangs that go down through the notches of both castle nuts. Once you drop on the upper triple clamp and you torque the top steering stem nut to 85 ft-lbs, that locks both castle nuts into position.

 

[infrared]

Geez.....I only have 168 posts, not over 5,000, but I'm on my second FJR and around 30 motorcycles with many steering head bearing changes behind me.

I DID THE WORK.....I trust me more than 95% of the 'mechanics' out there.

McRuss,

Well, Geez, no offense intended, bro. My apologies. Like I said, I kinda hate to ask such questions. Still, never know who is rolling in here, or what they might know. I mean, hey, they let me in here, so they prolly let anybody in.the door, right?

One guy even posted pictures of the job that he had, and that looked like it could be a problem. Glad to hear that you are investigating, and it would be helpful if you can post up what you find as a resolution. Might save somebody else some grief later on.

Welcome to our madhouse,

Infrared.

 

[Fred W]

Not sure if this issue has been resolved yet, but since I was way overdue on my 2014ES (@10k miles) I decided to finally adjust the steering stem bearing preload this afternoon, and while I was at it I went ahead and measured how far the stem protrudes above the upper triple clamp. On my bike it was 12mm with the top nut and washer removed. The washer is 2mm thick so it's an even 10mm of threaded stem showing that the nut can engage. Hope that helps.