The Ferry Commission Tries Again

[snowmonkey]

The Washington State Ferries are looking to increase fares again; and motorcyclists will see a significant increase. The proposal is available here and the relevant section for motorcyclists reads:

The current fare ratio of standard vehicles to motorcycles is 5:1 (the ratio is applied to the vehicle portion of the fare only). This ratio was established in 1992 and based on the Department of Transportation’s Design Manual standards for the size of motorcycle and vehicle parking spaces.

The proposal calls for changing the ratio to 4:1, which more closely reflects the true ratio of space a motorcycle requires on the vehicle deck when compared to a standard vehicle. The impact of this change is an increase in motorcycle fares in addition to the general fare increase.

While vehicle traffic system-wide has decreased in recent years, motorcycle traffic has increased substantially. The “nook-and-cranny” spaces that some motorcycles fit into are not sufficient, and more motorcycles are utilizing standard vehicle lanes.

Using standard motorcycle sizes and assuming a 1-foot border of space around each motorcycle would allow four motorcycles to fit into one standard vehicle space (8?6? x 20?). The loading would be two abreast in the 8?6? wide lane and two deep within the 20? length.

Folks, your efforts defeated this same proposal last year. You can defeat it again this year. Here is how to let your views be heard:

Website https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/fares/

E-mail [email protected]

Fax 206.515.3773

Phone 1.888.808.7977

Postal mail

Tariff Proposal

2901 3rd Avenue, Suite 500

Seattle, WA 98121

 

[Ignacio]

Thanks for the e-mail!

I did e-mail.......in complete support of the proposal. As well as seeming a reasonable argument about 4 motorcycles per car slots, ferry users across the board should pay more of the services they use. They're overly subsidized already and without these increases the taxpayers are at risk of having sales tax or gas taxes raised again.

Thanks again Snowmonkey for the heads up.

 

[Fencer]

So do SUVs pay more? If not then the 5 to 1 ratio would still be accurate.

 

[Ignacio]

So do SUVs pay more? If not then the 5 to 1 ratio would still be accurate.

It's not based on the type of vehicle, but the length. Less than 20' is a standard car rate. So, the mondo Excursion at 19 feet would pay the same as a Honda Accord. As Snowmonkey said, they're talking about a 20' x 8'6" area. I did the calcs and 5 FJRs wouldn't fit in that box.

 

[FJRay]

You have no idea how glad I am to be a long way away from that f@#$ing ferry system. That was the biggest reason among others that I left San Juan Island after 30 years. It will never get better and will increase in cost every year because it is already planned.

 

[TruWrecks]

Here's what I sent tonight:

"To whom it may concern,

An entire ferry full of motorcycles would use less fuel to cross Puget Sound than a ferry full of cars. I ride a motorcycle that is 29" wide and 7'8" long, and weighs 582 lbs. Five of those bikes can be fit into a 20' x 8'6" space, including a 1' space around each bike, with 2'5" left over.

The total weight of those five bikes is 3,493 lbs. A full size truck, SUV, or sedan that fits that same space weighs up to 11,000 lbs. The average weight of a full size sedan is between 5,000 and 6,000 lbs. Cars, Sport Utility Vehicles, and trucks weight more per square foot than most motorcycles.

Size is not the reason for the fuel consumption. A 20' x 8'6" box of air would cost no more to move than the weight of the ferry itself. Weight is what the rates should be based on. Weight is what the ferries are really moving.

By size the ratio is roughly 5:1 (motorcycles:cars). By weigh the ratio is 8.59:1 for a full size car. It's as high as 18.90:1 for trucks and larger SUVs.

Motorcycles can also be parked in some pretty odd shaped spots that a box shaped car could never fit into, making better use of the space available on each ferry run.

If the rates are to truly reflect the cost of operation the motorcycles would cost about 1/10th of the cost of a full size car.

Thank you,"

 

[Ignacio]

Here's what I sent tonight:
"To whom it may concern,

An entire ferry full of motorcycles would use less fuel to cross Puget Sound than a ferry full of cars. I ride a motorcycle that is 29" wide and 7'8" long, and weighs 582 lbs. Five of those bikes can be fit into a 20' x 8'6" space, including a 1' space around each bike, with 2'5" left over.

I'm curious you come up with that math? 7'8" x 2 = 15'4".x 2 abreast is more than enough. 7'8" x 3 = 22'6" which is over 20'.....a problem. Where's that fifth cycle fitting?

 

[TruWrecks]

Here's what I sent tonight:
"To whom it may concern,

An entire ferry full of motorcycles would use less fuel to cross Puget Sound than a ferry full of cars. I ride a motorcycle that is 29" wide and 7'8" long, and weighs 582 lbs. Five of those bikes can be fit into a 20' x 8'6" space, including a 1' space around each bike, with 2'5" left over.

I'm curious you come up with that math? 7'8" x 2 = 15'4".x 2 abreast is more than enough. 7'8" x 3 = 22'6" which is over 20'.....a problem. Where's that fifth cycle fitting?

Bikes parked / / / / /, not = =.

Make more sense? Again, my point is that weight is what we should be paying for, not size.

 

[Ignacio]

Fair enough on the theory of diagonal parking....you've solve the geometry problem in my mind. Although I don't think bikes at a diagonal are going to load or unload in that 8'0" box reasonably.

I don't think the issue is tonnage. Foot print is the typical limiting factor of a WA state ferry. I've never seen a ferry short-filled because of weight. It always been a factor of fitting vehicles on the surface.

 

[TruWrecks]

I understand that they base the loading on size, because the ferry is designed to carry way more then they can typically load. If you loaded a ferry full of inflated balloons it would still take up the same amount of room as the cars, but would cost much less in fuel to move them across the water. The more weight you add to the ferry, the deeper the draft. The deeper the draft, the higher the resistance of the water against the hull. More weight takes more energy to start and stop.

More weight simply means more fuel required to move it. That's why I think they should charge by weight.

As far as the space to load diagonally, you also have about 2' between each lane. That give you 3.5' of usable space to turn. I've done it before on group rides. It works pretty well, and the ferry crew was amazed at the lack of space we packed 25 bikes into.

:drinks:

 

[Dwavey]

Talk like this pushes my buttons; BC Ferries gouges motorcycles at a 2:1 rate. And they load us up in the corners where square cages won't fit, diagonally to the lanes. I sometimes think that if I have to pay 50% of the car rate I should get 50% of a car lane. And I like the argument about charging by weight.

Good luck in your fight.

 

[TruWrecks]

Now is the time to act. Get those email going if you want to keep the rates down.

This is the reply that I got last night:

"March 5, 2007

Dear Mr. Truex,

Thank you for your email regarding the 2007 Tariff. We certainly

appreciate your taking the time to write and your patience while

awaiting a response.

As you may know, the state legislature has hired consultants to look at

efficiencies and ways Washington State Ferries (WSF) can improve our

service, so your suggestions are indeed timely. Your comments will be

part of our overall presentation to the Transportation Commission, who

makes the final decision on any tariff increase or other proposal

dealing with how we charge our customers.

In previous years, comments like yours have helped to influence the

tariff proposal, so your input is appreciated.

Thank you again for taking the time to write. Comments from our

customers are a vital source of information as we endeavor to bring you

the service you expect and deserve.

Sincerely,

xxxxxxxxxxxx (removed for privacy)

Customer Information Manager

Washington State Ferries"

 

[snowmonkey]

As far as the space to load diagonally, you also have about 2' between each lane. That give you 3.5' of usable space to turn. I've done it before on group rides. It works pretty well, and the ferry crew was amazed at the lack of space we packed 25 bikes into.

Diagonal parking..., as bikers we perform this simple maneuver whenever we back into a curb. Of course the ferry crews don't know this because they do not ride motorcycles.

 

[KitsapFJR]

I realize that I'm late on this one, but I have ridden the ferries every day for eleven years (yeah, I'm nuts). We park the bikes where you simply could not put a car. Since we park where the cars can't, we are added revenue to the ferries. If you took all the bikes off the boat, you still couldn't get any more cars on board. Therefore, every bike they put on is added revenue. To hike the ratio for bikes is unreasonable and predatory. On those very few days when there are enough bikes that we spill into the car lanes, we still are added revenue to them.

Some have commented on how ferries need to pay for themselves... don't get me started. We pay through the nose to ride these boats. Enough of the fare increases.

 

[Ignacio]

We park the bikes where you simply could not put a car. Since we park where the cars can't, we are added revenue to the ferries. If you took all the bikes off the boat, you still couldn't get any more cars on board. Therefore, every bike they put on is added revenue. To hike the ratio for bikes is unreasonable and predatory. On those very few days when there are enough bikes that we spill into the car lanes, we still are added revenue to them.
Some have commented on how ferries need to pay for themselves... don't get me started. We pay through the nose to ride these boats. Enough of the fare increases.

Hmmm....that doesn't mesh with my experience. Rode the ferry 3 times this weekend and each time they parked me and other bikes with the cars.....not in any special place. Also 4 bikes took up what seemed exactly like 1 car space.

I read that ferries are required by law to have a minimum of 60% fare recovery....so periodically they're going to have adjust fares for anything that boards the boat.

 

[El Gordo]

Talk like this pushes my buttons; BC Ferries gouges motorcycles at a 2:1 rate. And they load us up in the corners where square cages won't fit, diagonally to the lanes. I sometimes think that if I have to pay 50% of the car rate I should get 50% of a car lane. And I like the argument about charging by weight.
Good luck in your fight.

I too am subjected to paying BC Ferries f#*%ed rates and with several recent surcharges added. It sounds like your ferries are more sensibly priced. Good luck with keeping them that way.

 

[Dwavey]

Talk like this pushes my buttons; BC Ferries gouges motorcycles at a 2:1 rate. And they load us up in the corners where square cages won't fit, diagonally to the lanes. I sometimes think that if I have to pay 50% of the car rate I should get 50% of a car lane. And I like the argument about charging by weight.
Good luck in your fight.

I too am subjected to paying BC Ferries f#*%ed rates and with several recent surcharges added. It sounds like your ferries are more sensibly priced. Good luck with keeping them that way.

Yeah, 'fuel surcharge', 'port charge', increased weekend fare, where will it all end? Arrrgghhh, don't get me going...Build a F***#*# bridge!

 

[FJRay]

All this poor me talk sure makes me glad I left the San Juans and the ferry for good. It sucks to deal with but it will never change. I fought with the wa. ferry for 30 years and then gave up.

 

[TruWrecks]

Talk like this pushes my buttons; BC Ferries gouges motorcycles at a 2:1 rate. And they load us up in the corners where square cages won't fit, diagonally to the lanes. I sometimes think that if I have to pay 50% of the car rate I should get 50% of a car lane. And I like the argument about charging by weight.
Good luck in your fight.

I too am subjected to paying BC Ferries f#*%ed rates and with several recent surcharges added. It sounds like your ferries are more sensibly priced. Good luck with keeping them that way.

Yeah, 'fuel surcharge', 'port charge', increased weekend fare, where will it all end? Arrrgghhh, don't get me going...Build a F***#*# bridge!

Then it would be a toll bridge, and bikes would pay the same as cars anyway.