The Really, Definitely Completely Un-Authorized TBS

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That's a really good question, Howie.

Somewhere in the archived depths of my mind I recall being taught (in power mechanics classes) that unnecessary revving of an engine with no load on it is bad for the engine. But I cannot for the life of me come up with a solid reason behind that theory. Is it a fallacy? Just another mechanical urban legend?

Maybe one of the really smart guys on here will help bail me out on this point?

 
I think we're still waiting for help to bail you out -- I'm with RH in this.

The engine's soul doesn't care one whit about the revolutions it's commanded to perform. Modern 600s routinely operate in the mid-teens of thousands RPM.

I will say that revving the engine hard, under-no-load, briefly (which puts it under an acceleration load) is an effective way to warm one up quickly and cleanly. Listen to race mechanics in the paddock someday and you'll hear that technique used.

 
That's a really good question, Howie.
Somewhere in the archived depths of my mind I recall being taught (in power mechanics classes) that unnecessary revving of an engine with no load on it is bad for the engine. But I cannot for the life of me come up with a solid reason behind that theory. Is it a fallacy? Just another mechanical urban legend?

Maybe one of the really smart guys on here will help bail me out on this point?

Naaaah, If that was the case there would be Hardlys fraggin everywhere. :rolleyes: :D :D :D

 
OK, so it appears that my fear of revving is totally unfounded.

Rev away you yahoos!! :yahoo:

Under the heading of increased state of confusion, I have another development in this UA TBS saga to report from this weekend:

Sunday morning I propped the tank again to do some more fiddling and diddling. My intent was to re-do the adjustments at a higher throttle opening as per the 3dogs' procedure, since it makes so much sense. Hooked up the gauge set and adjusted the 4 screws to exactly 1 turn open.

As I rolled on the throttle I could not identify any un-synchronized areas that I wanted to adjust out. :unsure: Ignoring what happens on throttle closure, just paying attention to what they do as the throttle is opened. Even when I held the rpms at ~3-4k for a second or two, the 4 cylinders were pretty damn well balanced. huh? :unsure: I thought for sure I'd see a difference.

When I allowed the engine to idle there was a little misbalance on #1 and #4 (as compared to 2 & 3) , so I touched them up with the air screws (each ~ 1/4T CCW ) and then rechecked balance as I opened the throttle. The air screws had very little effect and actually improved the balance if anything.

Buttoned everything up and then took off for a nice 3 hour Sunday ride with pillion.

What is really interesting was that there was a tangible improvement in the amount of vibration. Not where I expected to feel it (idle to 4k rpm) but more so at highway speeds above 4k rpm. Where I used to have a little buzziness above 70 mph there is now an eerie lack of vibration at 75-85 mph. I had previously just considered that to be the "nature of the beast".

So my conclusion at this point is, even though we are all apparently in agreement that the throttle plate alignment should be done at higher rpm, the throttle linkage adjustments that I made earlier in the week with the throttle screws closed and the engine at idle seems to have made a marked improvement on the TBS.

I realize that this is only one data point, and therefore not conclusive, but you may want to try initially setting your throttle plates / linkage at idle with the air screws closed, then check and adjust as needed with the throttle open.

 
[SIZE=12pt]EDIT - Although the below procedure works as advertised, further discussion dictates that you should also check the throttle plate alignment by rolling on the throttle and observing the balance at 3k-4k rpm. [/SIZE]

This unauthorized TBS procedure was based on a flawed premise; that the ideal throttle synchronization is when the throttle plates are aligned and parrallel. Following this procedure will not mess up your bike too badly, but it may not result in the ultimate synchronization over the factory settings.

For further detail see post # below.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I decided to start a new thread to document this procedure. Not because it is so much different than any of the other UA TBS procedures, but because there are so many Throttle Body Sync threads. I'm hoping that this procedure becomes the new standard non-standard. The concept for this TBS procedure came from a thread / discussion I had with a short duration forum member from Maine, Alekso last year. The idea was to make a procedure that wasn't so convoluted and difficult to follow and understand as the original Unauthorized sync procedure.

For those just tuning in, what's going on here is that the "official" throttle body sync procedure, the one called out in the Factory Service Manual (FSM) and specified as a "required" procedure at 4k mi. intervals (what?) is simply an adjustment of the air bypass screws at idle speed. These bypass screws have their primary effect on vacuum at idle speed, and have very little to do with how smoothly the engine runs at anything other than at idle or just above. As the throttle butterfly plates open, the tiny amount of air contributed to the total intake by the bypass circuit becomes increasingly less significant so that by the time you are at 3-4k rpm these screws are pretty insignificant. What is significant at larger throttle openings would be the relative angles of the throttle plates.

The problem is that the FSM doesn't specify a procedure for properly aligning the throttle plates. They just say that the plates are set at the factory and to leave em the hell alone... :huh: Being gearhead dweebs, we know that to achieve the smoothest possible running engine it is our goal for each of the 4 cylinders to contribute the identical amount of power per stroke. With Electronic Fuel Injection and Electronic Ignitions, the likelihood of balanced fueling a nd perfect ignition timing is much better than in the days of carburetors and points of the past. So our best tuning opportunity is to try to balance the air intakes, which can be best measured by the intake vacuums.

Prior "Unauthorised" TBS procedures suggested that you just open the throttle while observing the vacuum gauges and make the mechanical adjustments to the throttle linkage quickly. Surely that will work, but at what rpm do we need to go before the air from those bypass screws is nullified? And how sadistic is it to continually rev your engine while making these fine adjustments? (hint - they aren't all that quick)

Enter the RDC (Really Definitely Completely) Un-Authorized TBS.

The concept here is pretty simple. To align the throttle plates and eliminate the air contribution from the air by-pass screws, we just close them all the way before starting. Yep... it's just that simple.

So, to prove the concept I documented my most recent RDC UA TBS using a new (to me) Gunson Carb-tune vacuum gauge that I picked up over the winter:

After propping the tank up out of the way, here are the important adjustment points

(note - your under tank could look this uncluttered after installing the WynPro PAIR Block-Off plates and removing all the PAIR crap):

100_1211.jpg


V1 thru V4 are the 4 standard vacuum take-off points for hooking your vacuum gauge of choice to.

1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 are the mechanical linkage adjustment screws to adjust the relative angles of each cylinder's throttle butterfly plate.

Before I began, I documented what I had for vacuum at idle:

IdleB4.jpg


Not bad. Notice that #1 is a bit low and #4 is a bit high. Now, without making any adjustment I then revved the engine to ~3-4k rpm and used my Vista Cruise to hold it long enough to snap a picture:

3krpmB4.jpg


Hello! What's that? Now cyl #1 is high and #4 is low!! This is not good. No, not good at all...

(well really these aren't all that bad, but you get the idea...)

Procedure:

Close down (lightly) all 4 of the Air Bypass screws:

100_1217.jpg


100_1218.jpg


Depending on how open they were before, your engine may not want to idle. You can either crank the idle adjustment (under the right side of the tank) or use your Vista Cruise to hold a reasonable idle, like I did.

Now that the air screws are out of the picture, you can adjust the throttle plate linkage screws (at idle, not while winding the piss out of your poor engine) and balance the vacuums with the throttle plates angles.

Important: Start by balancing cyl 2-3 since 1 and 4 are effected by that adjustment. The only tricky part is if 2-3 needs adjustment you can't get a screwdriver on the adjustment screw. So, take a guess, shut the engine off, and open the throttle enough to get at the screw head. Adjust it one way and then restart the bike to see if you guessed right.

Once 2-3 is good, the 1-2 and 3-4 adjustments can easily be made invivo. If you want to rev the engine to various RPMs to see how much things vary (or don't), knock yourself out (I did). In fact I was a bit nervous of running the engine in the garage for so long, even with water cooling.

When you are completely happy with the balance, I suggest shutting the engine down, and then dialing in ~ 1 turn CCW (open) into each air bypass screw. Restart the engine and adjust your idle to ~1100rpm.

Now recheck your vacuum gauge. Since the throttle plates are now aligned, if there is any mis-balance simply adjust the bypass screws until it is balanced at idle.

When I completed this procedure I had dead nutz balance at idle, and it varied very, very little at any throttle opening. I have not ridden the bike yet after adjusting. It may not amount to a hill of beans, but at least I now know that, unequivocally the throttle has been fully balanced and any vibration that remains is not being caused by an intake mis-balance.



Hi Fred W,

Having been doing the Throttle body adjustment now for the last 5 or 6 years I've never been really all that impressed with the throttle response even though at idle (1000rpm) it purrs. Blipping the throttle wasn't a smooth ramp up in RPM's but a bit lumpy instead.

I agree that the the butterfly throttle plate is a mechanical adjustment regardless of load etc they all need to open together that's it - the rest is done by ECU and the plethora of engine, fuel and air sensors to deal with loads etc.

Having read all that's to read on the site about the Unofficial TBS and normal TBS etc I decided to try your method, this is what I did -

The throttle body sync had already been done a few days before as part of its service (new spark plugs, oil, filters etc). And the bike was running well (except for the acceleration being lumpy as usual). Engine was already warmed up 3bars.

1. Hooked up the Gunson vacuum gauge as normal for a TBS to the four take-off points.

2. Got a pen and paper and long flat blade screwdriver and wrote down the number of turns in I had to turn in (and lightly seat) for each of the 4 Air Bypass Screws.

My results were Cylinder

(1) 1 & 3/4 turns

(2) 1 & 1/2 turns

(3) 1 & 1/2 turns

(4) 2 & 1/4 turns (why was this the highest?)

3. Started the engine and had to hold the throttle open to maintain revs, decided to turn the engine idle screw (under the right side of the tank) to get an idle of 1000 rpm. I took a look at the vacuum gauge and saw number 1 was over 20mm Hg higher than 2 number 4 was over 30 mm Hg higher than 3, and 3&4 was 15mm Hg more than 1&2. Maybe this accounted for the idle air screw turns differences above (yes there are TB manufacture tolerances) and this seemed to answer what I was seeing on the Vac Gauge.

4. Located the Butterfly Throttle Plate adjustment screws (one for 1&2 another for 3&4 and a third to adjust 1&2 to 3&4).

Using cylinder 3 as the reference, cylinder 4 was adjusted to 3, then cylinder 1 was adjusted to 2 and finally the third screw to balanced 1&2 to 3&4.

I had to switch of the engine a couple of time to open the throttle as the screw is only accessible with the throttle held open (it rotates round into view on the throttle cable linkage). During this procedure the idle screw was adjusted several times to maintain 1000rpm.

5. Finally switched the engine off and locktite'd the adjustment screws.

6. With the flat blade screwdriver - opened the TB Air Screws on all Cylinders to 1 & 1/4 turns and started the engine, revs were lowered to 1000rpm and looking at the vacuum gauge all were exactly 250mm Hg. Revved the engine a few times and made only a gnats adjustment but was v happy with the balance.

I put it all back together and went out for a 1 1/2 hour ride - I couldn't believe the difference to the throttle response - why hadn't I done this earlier! Pulling from posted speed limits (30 and 40mph) up to the national speed limit (60 and 70) was effortless in 4th and 5th gear - no labouring just 'crisp' acceleration. Just revving the engine sounds so much smoother no lumps. I'd recommend this adjustment to everyone to be done when you do the TBS it's really easy. Thanks for your posts on this and the pictures as this adjustment is a winner!

 
Fred,

Another data point.

I decided to try this today. Heated up the engine, turned the bleed air screws in, used the throttlemeister to hold a good idle and started the bike. 2 and 3 were dead on, 1 and 4 were about 5mm higher. Not being one to leave well enough alone, I decided to have a whack.

The only thing I can tell you is that with the tank in any position that would allow the engine to draw gasoline, I could not get to either the 1-2 or 3-4 screws to adjust them. There is so much more stuff on the Gen2s that you can barely see the screws, much less access them. Gave up after an hour. Moved the bleed screws back out, fine tuned the vacuum and reset the idle to 1100.

Fought the good fight, retreated with dignity. The bike runs just fine. But, it annoys me that I couldn't get this done. I'm sure it'll keep nagging at me until I come up wiyh some other idea to get at the adjustment screws.

Dan

 
Dan,

Maybe try a shorter screwdriver? :unsure:

Or is it that you just can't get the tank high enough? I know the restriction on my 1st gen tank propping is the length of the wire that runs to the bottom of the fuel pump. When I did my valve check I just unplugged the two tank connectors, but obviously powering the pump is kind of important for the TBS.

PS - love the new avatar. Looks like my boy, Petey!

2577666530098858932S600x600Q85.jpg


 
SO, is there any definitive data to show that TBS actually improves performance? No theoretical arguments, does anyone have numbers?

 
I have read this entire thread through twice now. I think I have the gist of it but I have a question. Since I have a throttle lock would it make sense to lock it in at 2k-4k RPMs to do the adjustment?

 
Fred,

Took the expedient of completely removing the gas tank so I could see what was going on (as I then realized you had done - based on your pictures). I was able to figure out paths that I could thread a screw driver down to get at the screws. I was also able to figure out that you can't use a phillips head, which is what I tried yesterday. Put the tank back on and hooked it up and was able to get through the whole procedure, although the Gen2 is still a pain in the neck to get to the screws.

Only got a short ride, but the engine really seems to rev much smoother. Can't tell about vibes yet - need some fifth gear/4000rpm time to do that. It also seems to come up off idle much more smoothly. I would say, if you're going to do a TBS, you might as well do it this way. I think the results are superior and, after you've done it a few times and gotten use to the procedure, it'll probably only take 10 minutes longer.

Thanks for writing this up.

Dan

P.S. I bet having the PAIR system in place will make it a much bigger PIA.

P.P.S. His name is Wilson and he's 11 months old.

 
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I have read this entire thread through twice now. I think I have the gist of it but I have a question. Since I have a throttle lock would it make sense to lock it in at 2k-4k RPMs to do the adjustment?
You could, but I wouldn't.

It seems that if you close off all the air screws and adjust the throttle plates you get things very close to perfect. Then you can just watch the gauge as you roll on the throttle, or briefly hold it at various rpms, and decide if you want to make any changes.

The problem with trying to set your throttle lock at 4k rpm is it doesn't want to stay there. Someplace just north of 3k rpm it gets into a runaway condition when the engine is unloaded where it wants to rev to the limit.

The more I do this the more it seems to fall into the "art" category (vs science)

 
I would say, if you're going to do a TBS, you might as well do it this way. I think the results are superior and, after you've done it a few times and gotten use to the procedure, it'll probably only take 10 minutes longer.

I would agree, having done the servicing and TBS for six years (had bike since new for 8 years - dealer serviced while in warranty) this adjustment has made the engine much much smoother in the rev range.

Since doing this adjustment the acceleration is very smooth and one other thing I've noticed is putting it into 4th gear in a 30mph limit at 2000rpm is smooth and it wants to pull whereas in the past it used to surge and going down to 3rd gear at 2500rpm was the only option.

I've done around 800 miles since adj and my fuel consumption is better at around 50mpg was 43mpg on average. Regarding the vibes I haven't noticed any difference to the vibes felt at the bars at 4-4500rpm.

I am definitely going to be incorporating this as part of the TBS in future. Well done FredW!!!

David

 
Thanks for the info, I will try to do this as soon as my manometer arrives. I will also replace the spark plugs when I get in there.

Do car engines require this too? if not, why not?

Thanks.

 
Do car engines require this too? if not, why not?
Most automobile engines do not have individually adjustable throttle plates (or air bypass screws) for each cylinder. Even those with individual injectors typically have a single throttle body / throttle plate. Why they are designed differently is a very good (not great*) question. The design engineers must somehow be able to design out any variation in intake flow in the auto engine manifolds, but either can not or do not on the bike engines. Of course typical bike engine rpms are also somewhat higher than typical car engine rpms, so that may factor into it. :unsure:

* a great question is one that I know the answer to! ;)

 
Help!

I did the TBS after I got home this evening. I got everything running smoothly at ~4K with the air bypass screws closed. Next I turned all of the screws 1 turn. Working off of #3 as the base line I was able to get all cyls even. Everything was good.... except my idle is at 1300 RPM and I can't get it lower :dribble: Is there an idle screw that I can adjust to bring the idle down, or am I going to have to try to readjust everything?

*Edit*

Got it! Found it on FJRTech.com! https://www.fjrtech.com/getdbitem.cfm?item=28

 
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