Tick, tick, tick...dang!

[git-r-dan]

Been more than my share of busy and haven't been on the forum too much. Just spent an hour on Shane's troubles (thread). I'll respond to that here before beginning mine: Shane, you have contributed so much to this forum. It was so disheartening to see how much trouble you went through with Yamaha. Holy cow. The great news about your wife's cancer battle was awesome. I wish the best to you and your family. Enjoy that new ride. aamof, Builder Bob (in FL) did the same thing and traded for the BMW.

So my story goes... My 06 AE has been like a swiss watch till now. I have done most of the service except a couple of times where it was convenient for the dealer to do it. The dealer did the 26k valve adjustment (no adjustment was necessary) and I did the 28k service myself. After that change, drove two trips (Mobile, AL and Dallas, TX) with no problems. The odometer was just about to 32k and I scheduled the switch recall to be done at the dealer. I backed the bike out of the garage to get the lawnmower out and went ahead and started it just to freshen up the battery. It started and idled until it got 3 bars on the temp gauge, just as always. Tick, tick, tick... Huh? Then gave it a blip on the throttle. Dies. Then try and start it. No go. Then give it some gas while hitting the starter. Sputters, then idles with tick. Yesterday, loaded it in the truck and delivered it to the dealer. What was interesting was that the service dude says that I would have to agree to pay a certain amount and then what ever the cost was to fix it, the upfront amount would be absorbed in that cost. I said that I had the YES warranty. He said that it had to be a manufacturer's defect to be covered under the warranty. Hmmm, I said it better be something that was defective to make a tick like that. I hung out long enough to be told it possibly was the cam tensioner and would be ordered and installed next week. Sure hope it doesn't go into the Shane Stump's, Yamaha's CS trouble pit, black hole, nightmare extravaganza ordeal. gulp!

git-r-dan :beach:

 

[Brodie]

Dan

I usually ride with ear plugs, but lately I noticed my bike sounding differently with them out. The valve train sounded noisier than I remember. I have a 2006 AE with 68k on the clock. I decided to replace the cam chain tensioner. It only took a couple of hours, the part was around $80. When I had it out I compared it to the new one. There was nothing wrong with it mechanically, however it felt like the spring tension was lighter. (I wish had a tension gage to get some concrete evidence.) Needless to say when I fired the bike up with the new part the valve train was quiet again.

I think I did good by replacing the cam chain tensioner. After reading what RadioHowie and IonBeam went through I plan to replace it every other valve adjustment. Cheap insurance. I think the spring is affected by the hot and cold cycles. If you do a lot of shorter trips, it will see more of these hot-cold cycles than a bike that does long trips.

When you get the bill from the dealer, you may have an uphill battle getting YES to pay for it. The old part looks perfect, it just doesn't push as much. Eventually the spring may fatigue enough to fail. Better to replace it early than to let it replace itself. :dribble:

I hope the dealer gets it right the first time.

Good luck.



Brodie

 

[git-r-dan]

Holy cow, 68k on an 06'... good for you Brodie. Sure agree about the dealer getting it right the first time. I'm believing they will. This dealer has a pretty good rep.

I thought this was the part that only Harley's had problems with at 30k. :lol:

 

[ShinyPartsUp]

Damn, I'm running out of memory for all the things to watch for on my '06...

 

[git-r-dan]

Damn, I'm running out of memory for all the things to watch for on my '06...

:lol: someone make a list. Dang, where's Shane when you need him.

 

[ionbeam]

...I decided to replace the cam chain tensioner...When I had it out I compared it to the new one. There was nothing wrong with it mechanically, however it felt like the spring tension was lighter. (I wish had a tension gage to get some concrete evidence.) Needless to say when I fired the bike up with the new part the valve train was quiet again...

At the risk of being repetitive, the cam chain has worn causing the CCT to extend to take up the slack. The spring force in the CCTs that I've had a chance to examine have been non-linear - very stiff in the first 1/4" to 1/2" of extension, and then falls off dramatically over the next 1/4" of extension. Old ones and new ones alike. All the CCTs that I've seen start out with an initial extension of roughly 1/2" when the bike is new, and the CCTs were replaced at roughly 3/4" extension. It is an unfortunate fact that the CCT plunger extension begins life right where the spring force is starting to diminish and then the plunger extends into the nether regions.

What needs to be measured and charted is spring force over plunger extension. Brodie has a lot of miles on his cam chain causing the CCT to extend probably 3/4". If the CCT plunger is fully extended and you hold it near a light you can see shiny polished marks on the plunger allowing a rough extension measurement. When a replacement CCT is installed it starts out life 3/4" extended, already in the steep force drop-off area. There is a good chance that CCT related noise will be back soon. I'm a bit gun shy about fiddling with my CCT but I bet that if a feller were intrepid and removed the circlip then added 1/2 to 1 more turn to the spring, the old and tired CCT would be rejuvenated. I've done this with the old CCTs that I've autopsied but only bench tested them for spring force. I've found 2 full turns to be too much but 1/2 to 1 turn sure stiffens up the flaccid old plunger :lol: creating good spring force out to ~1.25".

 

[Bustanut joker]

1 turn sure stiffens up the flaccid old plunger :lol:

Anybody else find this statement a bit disturbing? :blink:

:lol:

:jester:

 

[ionbeam]

1 turn sure stiffens up the flaccid old plunger :lol:

Anybody else find this statement a bit disturbing? :blink:

:lol:

:jester:

That's why they call it screwing, no? You missed an opportunity with the 1.25 inches...

 

[Bustanut joker]

1 turn sure stiffens up the flaccid old plunger :lol:

Anybody else find this statement a bit disturbing? :blink:

:lol:

:jester:

That's why they call it screwing, no? You missed an opportunity with the 1.25 inches...

Yeah I know I missed it... Din wanna publicly belittle ya 'bout yer [SIZE=8pt]"shortcomings"[/SIZE]

Now Howie? Well, that's another story... :lol:

:jester:

 

[sirryan]

...I decided to replace the cam chain tensioner...When I had it out I compared it to the new one. There was nothing wrong with it mechanically, however it felt like the spring tension was lighter. (I wish had a tension gage to get some concrete evidence.) Needless to say when I fired the bike up with the new part the valve train was quiet again...

At the risk of being repetitive, the cam chain has worn causing the CCT to extend to take up the slack. The spring force in the CCTs that I've had a chance to examine have been non-linear - very stiff in the first 1/4" to 1/2" of extension, and then falls off dramatically over the next 1/4" of extension. Old ones and new ones alike. All the CCTs that I've seen start out with an initial extension of roughly 1/2" when the bike is new, and the CCTs were replaced at roughly 3/4" extension. It is an unfortunate fact that the CCT plunger extension begins life right where the spring force is starting to diminish and then the plunger extends into the nether regions.

What needs to be measured and charted is spring force over plunger extension. Brodie has a lot of miles on his cam chain causing the CCT to extend probably 3/4". If the CCT plunger is fully extended and you hold it near a light you can see shiny polished marks on the plunger allowing a rough extension measurement. When a replacement CCT is installed it starts out life 3/4" extended, already in the steep force drop-off area. There is a good chance that CCT related noise will be back soon. I'm a bit gun shy about fiddling with my CCT but I bet that if a feller were intrepid and removed the circlip then added 1/2 to 1 more turn to the spring, the old and tired CCT would be rejuvenated. I've done this with the old CCTs that I've autopsied but only bench tested them for spring force. I've found 2 full turns to be too much but 1/2 to 1 turn sure stiffens up the flaccid old plunger :lol: creating good spring force out to ~1.25".

Has anyone seen a mechanical screw type (manual adjustment) tensioner for the FJR's? Years ago, after having many problems with my oem Concours tensioner, I replaced it with an aftermarket manual adjustment type and this solved all problems. I could tell when it needed an adjustment and in a couple of minutes it would be done. It would be nice to have this option on the FJR.

SR

 

[McRuss]

I have 60k on my '04 and this thread has me wondering....since the CCTs job is to take up the slack from the chain as it wears, at what point is is advisable to change the chain itself rather than the CCT? I'll bet it is a major job to do so (I did my own valve adjustment, 2 intake shims, and had a chance to look things over in there.) And what about the 'dampers' that actually press on the chain to take up the slack? Do they ever have to be replaced? Just wondering.

 

[RadioHowie]

1 turn sure stiffens up the flaccid old plunger :lol:

Anybody else find this statement a bit disturbing? :blink:

:lol:

:jester:

That's why they call it screwing, no? You missed an opportunity with the 1.25 inches...

Yeah I know I missed it... Din wanna publicly belittle ya 'bout yer [SIZE=8pt]"shortcomings"[/SIZE]

Now Howie? Well, that's another story... :lol:

:jester:

Two turns didn't do me a bit of good. Mine may not be too big around, but by gosh, at least it's short!

 

[Geezer]

I have 60k on my '04 and this thread has me wondering....since the CCTs job is to take up the slack from the chain as it wears, at what point is is advisable to change the chain itself rather than the CCT? I'll bet it is a major job to do so (I did my own valve adjustment, 2 intake shims, and had a chance to look things over in there.) And what about the 'dampers' that actually press on the chain to take up the slack? Do they ever have to be replaced? Just wondering.

It depends on who you ask. Haulin' Ashe recommends changing the cam chain frequently to keep the engine output at it's maximum. The chain is pretty inexpensive. The problem is that you have to remove the lower sprocket to do the job, and time the cams. Neither of these are really difficult, but disastrous if you make a mistake.

Personally, I replaced my CCT at about 60K miles, after it had been making noise for more than 10K. It took me that long to realize that I had a problem. I plan to replace bot the CCT and chain at 100K unless the noise returns before that.

Yamaha has updated the part number for the CTT so maybe they figured out the problem. The new part number for all years is 5JW-12210-10-00 (replaces 5JW-12210-01-00). It looks like the new part came from the factory on the '09 models.

 

[ionbeam]

The proper way to determine if the cam chain alone is worn is to measure the length. Does anyone have a new chain to measure? It hasn't been mentioned but the cam sprockets wear also. The proper way to determine if there is too much wear in the cam sprocket/chain assembly is spelled out in the FSM, a matter of measuring the chain tooth to cam sprocket spacing. If the cam chain tooth has a space of 1/4 a tooth wide or more within the cam sprocket, all the cam sprockets and the chain should be replaced. Another way to get an indication of CC & sprocket wear is to use a timing light to look at the timing marks while the engine is running. A worn chain will cause wandering or ******** timing. Dunno what timing specs would be for a motorcycle but in small car engines 2 to 3 degrees of timing shift is a warning. This ties in with Haulin' Ashe mentioning that a worn chain or sprockets hurts performance. As the CC system wears the mechanical timing of the valves changes, and engine power starts to drop.

I've seen 'seasoned' mechanics take a cam chain that is off the drive sprocket and pull on the cam chain while it is engaged in the cam sprocket. If the cam chain can be pulled and it skips teeth, the sprockets and chain need to be replaced.

The cam chain slippers (McRuss 'dampers') seem to be real durable. At ~40k miles there was no evidence at all of wear. Then again, the flaccid CCT doesn't really tension the chain very tight against them either.

If the valves need to be adjusted, that would be the time to consider changing the cam chain because you will be 85% of the way there. As mentioned, the devil in the job is the timing sprocket on the end of the crank shaft. There are two sprockets, the inside sprocket is the drive sprocket for the cam chain, the outter 'sprocket' is for spark timing. The cam chain will not clear the timing sprocket. Removing the sprocket requires the crank to be held while the nut is removed. Air impact wrench = easy; ratchet wrench needs ingenuity (use the transmission and rear wheel to hold the crank) or the stator cover needs to come off.

 

[ionbeam]

My cam chain from the Big Bang is 17.750 inches (45.08 cm), center pin to center pin.

 

[RadioHowie]

There's always a "Good, Bad & Ugly" when it comes to cams, chains, sprockets, etc., and our dear Ionbeam didn't mention the "Ugly".

The "Good" is, as Ionbeam mentioned, if you're actually having to replace shims, replacing the chain is just a few more minutes of work.

The "Bad", also mentioned, is the need to pull the timing rotor off the end of the crank to be able to remove the chain.

And then, there's the "Ugly".

The "Ugly" is that you can't change the main drive sprocket on the crankshaft....without changing the crank.

If you've tossed or slipped a chain while the motor's running (it's happened to at least 2 forum members) 12 to 16 bent valves may mean you've gotten off lucky. If you've stripped or broken a tooth on a cam sprocket, you've gotten off lucky. If you've damaged the drive sprocket on the crank..........

Well, I just don't want to go there.

 

[ionbeam]

There's always...Ugly...The "Ugly" is that you can't change the main drive sprocket on the crankshaft....without changing the crank.
If you've tossed or slipped a chain while the motor's running....If you've damaged the drive sprocket on the crank..........

Well, I just don't want to go there.

There was so much destruction that the crank sprocket was a big concern. RH is correct, the crank sprocket is pressed on at the factory and can't be changed. To check my crank sprocket we had to have a Yamaha Tech Guy come out with The Big Book and measure it for us. It was good. WWWHHHHEEEEEWWwwwwwWWWWW.

We also flipped the motor over and pulled the plane bearings, looking for bruising, checked for bent rods and checked the wrist pins for problems. While doing this we discovered that my rings were stuck in the lands and did not want to free up. All was good but the rings. In 20/20 hind sight, it was in the process of doing this that the front balancer rotated 120° because it was upside down. In a cruel twist of fate, a punch mark not noted in any of the manuals inadvertently lined up with the case seam, making it look like it was ok. Riding my bike with the front balancer off by 120° was like riding a Sherwin Williams paint mixer. It took the Yamaha Tech Guy with The Big Book to disassemble my engine and find the problem, 'cause it looked good by the dealer's books.

 

[McRuss]

The cam chain slippers (McRuss 'dampers') seem to be real durable. At ~40k miles there was no evidence at all of wear. Then again, the flaccid CCT doesn't really tension the chain very tight against them either.

'Dampers' is the parts fische name for them.

Guess I shoulda changed the chain and CCT when I was in there at 54,000....oh well.

 

[git-r-dan]

Just got the call, bike's ready to go with new cam tensioner. No charge, covered under warranty! Not going to put the "yahoo" symbol up yet until I know it runs as good as before. Sure is good news though.

Big thanks to all who responded. It was all a little over my head but very interesting and great knowledge for down-the-road.

git-r-dan :beach: