To grease . . . or not to grease . . . that is the ?

[blakmambo]

Folks:

Had to do the shade tree mechanic maneuver to pull the rear wheel after the OEM valve stem spontaneously cracked, leaving the tire with no air to speak of; managed to do it w/o benefit of breaker bar or 27mm socket . . . .

Axle appears to have little in the way of lubrication, and the splines in the rear drive hub also don't seem to be lubricated to any degree, if at all. Question is whether there should be grease slathered around on the splines, or possibly the axle . . . or nope, the FJR doesn't require lube in those areas, otherwise it would have come that way??

09 FJR approx 22K miles . . . I took a shot with my iPod, but can't seem to find the "upload" icon in the toolbar. I clicked on "My media" but nothing there seems to clearly indicate the "upload" function?? Picture in your mind what would be a "clean" innner hub/spline, no lube slathered around or left over . . . and the axle has what might be something like clear WD-40 on it, but no greasy kid's stuff to speak of . . . .

TIA

 

[Donal]

Try typing something like greasing splines site:fjrforum.com lots of info and experience there......

If you are in a hurry then grease everything.

 

[Powerman]

Splines lubed with high percentage Moly grease. (search)

WD-40 will absorb moisture and rust, thin coating of grease on axles.

Reminded of coating a high dollar Porsche lightened racing pressure plate

with WD-40. Opened the plastic bag to a rusted surface.

 

[Fred W]

The axle shaft only needs enough lube to keep it from rusting in place. It is non-rotating and, along with the axle nut, clamps the internal wheel spacers and inner wheel bearing races through the wheel hub splines to the driven ring gear.

The wheel hub splines have no appreciable motion relative to each other either. They are also lubricated as a matter of avoiding corrosion. Many people have slathered them excessively and ended up with a greasy mess slung onto the rear wheel and tire. A little goes a long way.

The one area of constant discussion is the forward end of the drive shaft where it engages with the U-joint. There is a lot of feeling that this joint needs constant attention, but I am one who disagrees. There is no motion in that joint, the drive shaft is spring loaded from the rear, which pushes it forward fully into the U-joint yokes splines. So again, a light coating to avoid rust and allow easy disassembly is all that is needed.

As always, YMMV

 

[blakmambo]

The axle shaft only needs enough lube to keep it from rusting in place. It is non-rotating and, along with the axle nut, clamps the internal wheel spacers and inner wheel bearing races through the wheel hub splines to the driven ring gear.
The wheel hub splines have no appreciable motion relative to each other either. They are also lubricated as a matter of avoiding corrosion. Many people have slathered them excessively and ended up with a greasy mess slung onto the rear wheel and tire. A little goes a long way.

The one area of constant discussion is the forward end of the drive shaft where it engages with the U-joint. There is a lot of feeling that this joint needs constant attention, but I am one who disagrees. There is no motion in that joint, the drive shaft is spring loaded from the rear, which pushes it forward fully into the U-joint yokes splines. So again, a light coating to avoid rust and allow easy disassembly is all that is needed.

As always, YMMV

@Fred W:

OK, thanks for the post and the further clarifications . . . in looking through some of the suggested search threads, there was some mention of "the pumpkin" and I got the feeling that I haven't gotten to the pumpkin level . . . I'm just at "the shroom" . . . .

Since this is taking place in non-laboratory conditions on essentially dirt/gravel on the c-stand I'm just looking to button it up once I get the new tire mounted on the wheel, not looking to complicate the process, etc. I'm guessing that the pumpkin would be on the "other side" of the drive spline?? rather than what you see when the wheel is pulled?? I understand what you are saying about "no motion in relationship to each other" as far as the wheel splines and the drive splines go, so in that case perhaps any "wheel bearing grease" could suffice there, just to prevent corrosion or other problems of "dryness"???

I'd think about "doing it right" on the next tire change hopefully that could take place on a lift with power tools, rather than on the ground with a crescent wrench and such to get the job done . . . thinking that a tire will give perhaps 10K of what is with me pretty easy miles, other than the random two-up trip of a few hundred miles . . . . I just had the non-valve adjust service at perhaps 18K and the rear end oil was changed along with other fluids . . . .

 

[RossKean]

As Fred says, a little bearing grease is sufficient for the drive splines on the pumpkin. Same with the axle shaft - enough to prevent corrosion and keep things from locking up. Some folks are really big on using a whole bunch of Honda Moly-60 molybdenum sulfide lubricating paste EVERYWHERE. The stuff is black and gooey. It makes a Godawful mess and is simply unnecessary for most things. I have used it (sparingly) on the U-joint and drive splines at the output shaft - mostly because I don't take that apart very often.

 

[Fred W]

Exactly. You can use the Moly paste if you have it. I do, and do. But Like the old brylcream ad said: A little dab will do ya.

PS- the pumpkin is slang for the final drive housing. So the pumpkin splines would be the same as the wheel hub splines.

 

[Bounce]

I do this based on the experiences of years of Gold Wing owners. Those who don't lube their drive and driven splines ended up with costly repairs over the years. Those who did do routine service, didn't have problems. It's too easy and cost effective to do with each tire change to be ignored (IMO).

https://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/spline/spline.html

https://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/spline/SkooterG/coupling101.html

https://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/ujoint/uj.html

 

[blakmambo]

I do this based on the experiences of years of Gold Wing owners. Those who don't lube their drive and driven splines ended up with costly repairs over the years. Those who did do routine service, didn't have problems. It's too easy and cost effective to do with each tire change to be ignored (IMO).
https://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/spline/spline.html

https://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/spline/SkooterG/coupling101.html

https://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/ujoint/uj.html

@Bounce:

Thanks for your time and effort to post these links; I did read them over for the general gist of it . . . appreciate it. Have to go to auto parts store to get a 27mm socket, easy enough to get some "heavier" grease . . . . Don't think this is the time to go for the total disassembly though . . . .

 

[FJRBluesman]

Bounce great links, thanks.

 

[terryfarnham]

The axle shaft only needs enough lube to keep it from rusting in place. It is non-rotating and, along with the axle nut, clamps the internal wheel spacers and inner wheel bearing races through the wheel hub splines to the driven ring gear.
The wheel hub splines have no appreciable motion relative to each other either. They are also lubricated as a matter of avoiding corrosion. Many people have slathered them excessively and ended up with a greasy mess slung onto the rear wheel and tire. A little goes a long way.

The one area of constant discussion is the forward end of the drive shaft where it engages with the U-joint. There is a lot of feeling that this joint needs constant attention, but I am one who disagrees. There is no motion in that joint, the drive shaft is spring loaded from the rear, which pushes it forward fully into the U-joint yokes splines. So again, a light coating to avoid rust and allow easy disassembly is all that is needed.

As always, YMMV

The only problem is a needle bearing in the middle of axle where it does need grease. No the axle does not spin but that bearing sure does wheel bearing grease does wonders.

 

[terryfarnham]

The axle shaft only needs enough lube to keep it from rusting in place. It is non-rotating and, along with the axle nut, clamps the internal wheel spacers and inner wheel bearing races through the wheel hub splines to the driven ring gear.
The wheel hub splines have no appreciable motion relative to each other either. They are also lubricated as a matter of avoiding corrosion. Many people have slathered them excessively and ended up with a greasy mess slung onto the rear wheel and tire. A little goes a long way.

The one area of constant discussion is the forward end of the drive shaft where it engages with the U-joint. There is a lot of feeling that this joint needs constant attention, but I am one who disagrees. There is no motion in that joint, the drive shaft is spring loaded from the rear, which pushes it forward fully into the U-joint yokes splines. So again, a light coating to avoid rust and allow easy disassembly is all that is needed.

As always, YMMV

@Fred W:

OK, thanks for the post and the further clarifications . . . in looking through some of the suggested search threads, there was some mention of "the pumpkin" and I got the feeling that I haven't gotten to the pumpkin level . . . I'm just at "the shroom" . . . .

Since this is taking place in non-laboratory conditions on essentially dirt/gravel on the c-stand I'm just looking to button it up once I get the new tire mounted on the wheel, not looking to complicate the process, etc. I'm guessing that the pumpkin would be on the "other side" of the drive spline?? rather than what you see when the wheel is pulled?? I understand what you are saying about "no motion in relationship to each other" as far as the wheel splines and the drive splines go, so in that case perhaps any "wheel bearing grease" could suffice there, just to prevent corrosion or other problems of "dryness"???

I'd think about "doing it right" on the next tire change hopefully that could take place on a lift with power tools, rather than on the ground with a crescent wrench and such to get the job done . . . thinking that a tire will give perhaps 10K of what is with me pretty easy miles, other than the random two-up trip of a few hundred miles . . . . I just had the non-valve adjust service at perhaps 18K and the rear end oil was changed along with other fluids . . . .

For the love of GOD put wheel bearing grease on the axle. The axle does not spin but a inner needle bearing sure does The grease works its way onto that bearing. A light coating works each time you take off the wheel.

 

[Fred W]

Terry is correct. There is a needle bearing in the middle of the wheel hub assembly. It appears that the function of that needle bearing is to allow the cush drive's vanes to rotate slightly in relation to the wheel as the rubber cushes are compressed during acceleration/deceleration. They would not use a needle bearing if it was rotating at wheel speed.

The FSM mentions lubricating the inside of the cush drive with lithium soap grease during the wheel hub assembly, but doesn't talk about greasing the axle shaft during wheel mounting.

The actual wheel bearings are of sealed ball bearing type and require no greasing, but that needle bearing is captive inside the wheel hub. Odd that the FSM doesn't say to grease it regularly or the axle during wheel assembly. There is an oil seal on either side of the needle bearing so I'm not sure how much grease would get in there off the axle.

Seems like that needle bearing is an area of maintenance worth investigating further.

 

[08FJR4ME]

Waiting for the write up.

I didn't even know that inner bearing existed.

Dave

 

[blakmambo]

Waiting for the write up.

I didn't even know that inner bearing existed.
Dave

Yep, me too . . . I don't recall seeing anything other than "shaft" on the axle . . . just looked at my **non-uploaded** photo of the inside aspect of the exposed hub-side splines . . . nothing but your basic lonely splines there . . . I didn't look at the (from rear) right side where there was a spacer/holder from the brake assembly, so there might be a needle bearing in there . . . .

But, I do appreciate "lubrication" so it would be hard for me to put "nothing" on re-assembly . . . following God's love of balance and freedom of movement via judicious application of greasy kid's stuff wherever possible or on whatever looks in "reasonable need of lubing" . . . I'll have to search out this errant needle bearing set . . . I had a sheet on the ground to catch the inevitable parts jailbreak effect, nothing seemed to be on it or nothing caught my eye as it tried to leap free of its containment in service to the greater machine, etc.

As usual with this bike, the continuing saga, rear tire was ordered a week ago, mechanic says, "I'll call you as soon as its in . . ." Ooopsss, "part coming from out of state" . . . called yesterday, oooppsss, mechanic has worn out his welcome with his landlord, anonymous guy answering the phone says, "I don't know nothing about any tire, he'll be gone after Wed . . . ." ?????

 

[art miller]

Seems this inner bearing is a new find or relatively new. Has anyone had this bearing fail????

 

[blakmambo]

Well, for better or worse, the new tire is mounted with the 45 degree valve stem pointed toward the brake rotor side, and the wheel has been returned to where it previously was . . . took up most of the day getting to the car parts store for 27mm socket and moly grease, then to the olde shop to pick up the fresh pirelli, didn't even check if it was indeed the "A" type, as the whole thing has had "snafu" written all over it . . . . Drove the tire and wheel over to the stealer and they mounted it pretty quick, have to see how this tilted valve works, but anything will be better than the POS OEM rubber unit . . . and back to the lonely bike sans rear wheel . . . .

And, I follow my old construction mantra, "install first, then read instructions" . . . spooged some of O'reilly's best moly lube around the splines hefted the wheel up in there, seemed to mate up against the hub flange OK, hard to "know" whether the splines were properly aligned or not . . . figured that with Japanese machining being as it usually is, only goes together the right way, one way, and if it was fitting up against the flange I figured it was "cool" . . . had to futz with the caliper pads with the screwdriver, but that then slid into place after a few tries, and the final check . . . axle seemed to slide snugly through without using any "persuader" at all . . . . All then was re-nutted and torqued . . . to the almost recommended specs, could not get the 27mm nut to the max of my 3/8 drive torque wrench, which would have been still shy of the "90 ft-lbs" so I set it to 60 ft-lbs . . . figuring that I might have to be the guy to take it apart again . . . arms aren't what they used to be when I was younger, then I would have made sure it was **precisely** torqued . . . but all of these nuts are already tweaked from the previous few times that mechanics have installed new tires or brakes . . . kinda cheesy as far as the quality of these mounting nuts/bolts goes . . . .

Anyway, I didn't see any "needle bearings" in there, I pulled out that metal "inner tube" that went from the inside of the hub and through to guide the threaded end of the axle through . . . I kinda sprayed some WD around in places and on the axle, but I didn't see any "lips" that were mentioned in the tech guide . . . I had thoroughly read the removal instructions, but, in the usual haste didn't read the finer points on the re-assembly . . . . I'm sure it will survive, things generally looked pretty clean, it's a low mileage bike . . . it'll prolly make it to the next tire change . . . in the grand tradition of SNAFU riding . . . . It seems to be doing alright while rotated on the c-stand, no unsightly "wobbles" and no strange resistance via the caliper . . . that would indicate improper alignments.

I'll be trying to get the tire scrubbed in on Sat--it now has the Pirelli Angel GT's front and rear.

Imagine a picture of a freshly installed tire shining blackly in its axle . . . waiting for more air to be added . . . .

 

[RossKean]

Speechless...

 

[Donal]

"Anyway, I didn't see any "needle bearings" in there,"

Have a look at any of the on-line parts fiches, such as here item 6 is the needle bearing...........