To lean or counter-lean, that is the question...
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torch
Well-known member
I’ve said before: I like my chicken strips nice and meaty. Keeps my bones inside my body (as per my wife’s request).
I agree with what I think is the underlying sentiment -- taking the bike down to the pegs on every street corner is asking for trouble.
But at the same time, I think it is wise to maintain muscle memory of the limits by occasionally cornering harder than necessary in controlled (or at least, familiar) circumstances. For example, keeping a tight line on an on-ramp with good sight lines and constant radius -- where you can widen the line if you overcooked it.
It is that muscle memory that might save you in the instant's reaction time available when things go horribly wrong under other circumstances.
It's more about the time it takes for body english to react vs counter steering. Both work but one is more immediate.
torch
Well-known member
I wonder if there is some confusion over terms in this thread? Counter-steer and counter-lean are two different things.
Counter-steer induces lean of the motorcycle as a direct result of Newton's laws of motion and gyroscopic precession. Basically, the front wheel is a big gyroscope. When you apply a force perpendicular to the axis of rotation, the reactive force is at 90° to the input force. IE: apply clockwise force to the spinning front wheel and the axis of rotation will itself rotate counterclockwise with equal force, taking the rest of the motorcycle with it. In other words: turn the bars right to lean the bike left.
Note that the front wheel has to be spinning to have angular momentum. Obviously, sitting at a stop, rotating the handlebars has no effect on inducing a lean. The effect becomes more noticeable as speed increases and counter-steering will lean the bike regardless of your body position.
Counter-lean, as I always understood the term, is bending the upper body at the waist opposite to the direction of motorcycle lean, so as to be more vertical in the corner than the motorcycle. As compared to leaning with the motorcycle.
In the second video posted, Ryan F9 introduced me to the term "counter-sit", which seems to take the idea of counter-lean to a whole new level. He's shifting his backside off the seat as far as any racer hanging off and dragging a knee -- but in the opposite direction. Since watching that video, I have tried it a bit -- mostly in an empty parking lot -- and can see the value to a motor patrol cop. For a fast, tight U-turn or maximum maneuverability at moderate speed in tight places it's probably the best approach. A good tool in the toolbox, but I don't think it's the be-all and end-all that should replace all other riding techniques.
But that's just my 2¢.
Counter-steer induces lean of the motorcycle as a direct result of Newton's laws of motion and gyroscopic precession. Basically, the front wheel is a big gyroscope. When you apply a force perpendicular to the axis of rotation, the reactive force is at 90° to the input force. IE: apply clockwise force to the spinning front wheel and the axis of rotation will itself rotate counterclockwise with equal force, taking the rest of the motorcycle with it. In other words: turn the bars right to lean the bike left.
Note that the front wheel has to be spinning to have angular momentum. Obviously, sitting at a stop, rotating the handlebars has no effect on inducing a lean. The effect becomes more noticeable as speed increases and counter-steering will lean the bike regardless of your body position.
Counter-lean, as I always understood the term, is bending the upper body at the waist opposite to the direction of motorcycle lean, so as to be more vertical in the corner than the motorcycle. As compared to leaning with the motorcycle.
In the second video posted, Ryan F9 introduced me to the term "counter-sit", which seems to take the idea of counter-lean to a whole new level. He's shifting his backside off the seat as far as any racer hanging off and dragging a knee -- but in the opposite direction. Since watching that video, I have tried it a bit -- mostly in an empty parking lot -- and can see the value to a motor patrol cop. For a fast, tight U-turn or maximum maneuverability at moderate speed in tight places it's probably the best approach. A good tool in the toolbox, but I don't think it's the be-all and end-all that should replace all other riding techniques.
But that's just my 2¢.
Counter LEAN is what I consider a slow-speed/dirt skill. The bike moves underneath an always-upright rider.
Counter STEERING initiates a turn.
Body English (into the inside of the corner) actually does the opposite of Counter LEAN as the goal in getting your body inside the corner helps keep the BIKE upright as the rider moves around; delaying loss of clearance.
Counter LEAN decreases clearance more quickly.
Counter STEERING initiates a turn.
Body English (into the inside of the corner) actually does the opposite of Counter LEAN as the goal in getting your body inside the corner helps keep the BIKE upright as the rider moves around; delaying loss of clearance.
Counter LEAN decreases clearance more quickly.
Dale_I
Active member
I'll add to @Bounce list... the physics of Counter STEER requires motion and under 20 or 25 isn't as affective.
As @feejerbkb, I've done some YCRS. I may not use the methods to the extreme as when you learn on the track, but I think all of it is scalable. I'm not moving my body off the seat regularly, but I will lean my upper body out (arm extended, etc, etc) so I don't have to use as much effort counter-steering. If I'm riding sporty, I'll move to the balls of my feet (etc, etc), but no way could I stay there for hours. My knees wouldn't take it (I'm old).
More than anything, it is a tool in the pocket that you can use when there is wet pavement, gravel or grass, or any of the other million ways we can be taken out.
What dedicated track time offers is a known repeatable corner with limited outside dangers so you can try these techniques and explore what they do. It will give you confidence knowing when a particular input is accomplished a predictable response will happen... and that's what's transferable to the street.
No requirement to be a squid just because you can.
Here is my evidence. These are my peg feeler-bolts previous to a corner clinic, replaced after the corner clinic, and haven't been drug since. I'm definitely able to corner faster, more controlled, and able to adapt my speed and line throughout the corner... just not dragging hard parts. (Honda ST1100)
Good form makes it all easier. You can last a lot longer and go a lot more miles when you don't have to muscle it all the time.
Last thought... this is never anything I feel I have "obtained" or "perfected". This is a constant learning opportunity every time you ride. On a very rare occasion, everything will line up and you get the zen-moment. Otherwise, most of the time I'm just trying to stay alive.
As @feejerbkb, I've done some YCRS. I may not use the methods to the extreme as when you learn on the track, but I think all of it is scalable. I'm not moving my body off the seat regularly, but I will lean my upper body out (arm extended, etc, etc) so I don't have to use as much effort counter-steering. If I'm riding sporty, I'll move to the balls of my feet (etc, etc), but no way could I stay there for hours. My knees wouldn't take it (I'm old).
More than anything, it is a tool in the pocket that you can use when there is wet pavement, gravel or grass, or any of the other million ways we can be taken out.
What dedicated track time offers is a known repeatable corner with limited outside dangers so you can try these techniques and explore what they do. It will give you confidence knowing when a particular input is accomplished a predictable response will happen... and that's what's transferable to the street.
No requirement to be a squid just because you can.
Here is my evidence. These are my peg feeler-bolts previous to a corner clinic, replaced after the corner clinic, and haven't been drug since. I'm definitely able to corner faster, more controlled, and able to adapt my speed and line throughout the corner... just not dragging hard parts. (Honda ST1100)
Good form makes it all easier. You can last a lot longer and go a lot more miles when you don't have to muscle it all the time.
Last thought... this is never anything I feel I have "obtained" or "perfected". This is a constant learning opportunity every time you ride. On a very rare occasion, everything will line up and you get the zen-moment. Otherwise, most of the time I'm just trying to stay alive.
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Lots of good stuff here! My vote (and almost 50 yrs of experience) goes to counter-lean at slow speeds, lean-in at higher speeds, counter-steering as necessary, and hanging off when riding at the extreme. I highly recommend a YCRS or similar course as a survival strategy - you have to know how to really control your bike, and what it/you are capable of.
When I first started riding, the friend who said he'd teach me to ride had one strategy - we'd go to the foot of the mountain (Azusa Canyon in SoCal) and he'd say "do what I do". What a moron! And what an idiot I was for trying to. This guy was 9/10ths crazy, the kind of guy that passes on blind curves in the mountains, and I was set on keeping up with him so I could learn. God must have really liked me for me to have survived that!
Somehow, it worked - I was stubborn, stupid and 19 years old, and hated that I was too scared to lean as far as he did. I read everything I could find, and bit-by-bit kept up farther and farther up the mountain. I knew my bike should be faster than his (1974 Yamaha TX500 vs '73 Yamaha 650) up the mountain, and so for almost 2 years we averaged at least once a week up & down that mountain. When I finally beat him, he said his bike needed a tune-up, and when I beat him again the next week, I quit racing.
You know that nagging feeling you get that "I could've gone a little faster, or I could've gotten on the gas a little sooner, or harder?" That last ride felt perfect - pegs folded up around almost every corner, every corner felt like I got a perfect launch out of it - it felt like that was the fastest that bike would ever go up that road - the perfect ride! And I felt like I pushed my luck beyond all limits - most of that road had no run-offs or safety rails. A mistake probably meant you were going into the side of the mountain, or off of the side of the mountain - probably the stupidest and luckiest I have ever been in my life!
But the thing is, the skills I learned, knowing how far a bike will really lean and how to get it down there quickly and smoothly, same for how quickly you can stop, realizing the value of smoothness and not upsetting the suspension, have saved my life many times. I was lucky to have learned in those days, the bikes, tires and suspensions were so bad that the bike would get out of shape when you were still going slow enough to get it back. Now, I fear for the kids coming up that bikes are so good that by the time anything starts to go wrong they're going so fast they'll never have that chance to learn. Hopefully, they'll never have to, they can go way faster than I ever did almost without effort.
Oh, dang - sorry for the book! That a riding course! It'll probably be the most fun you'll ever have out of bed, and you will be many times safer (and be more relaxed and have more fun) on your bike!
PS. I got a look at a restored TX500 the other day and got scared all over again - that bike has one front disc about the size of a small salad plate and a drum rear brake - and I was racing that going down a mountain?!! Gave me chills!
When I first started riding, the friend who said he'd teach me to ride had one strategy - we'd go to the foot of the mountain (Azusa Canyon in SoCal) and he'd say "do what I do". What a moron! And what an idiot I was for trying to. This guy was 9/10ths crazy, the kind of guy that passes on blind curves in the mountains, and I was set on keeping up with him so I could learn. God must have really liked me for me to have survived that!
Somehow, it worked - I was stubborn, stupid and 19 years old, and hated that I was too scared to lean as far as he did. I read everything I could find, and bit-by-bit kept up farther and farther up the mountain. I knew my bike should be faster than his (1974 Yamaha TX500 vs '73 Yamaha 650) up the mountain, and so for almost 2 years we averaged at least once a week up & down that mountain. When I finally beat him, he said his bike needed a tune-up, and when I beat him again the next week, I quit racing.
You know that nagging feeling you get that "I could've gone a little faster, or I could've gotten on the gas a little sooner, or harder?" That last ride felt perfect - pegs folded up around almost every corner, every corner felt like I got a perfect launch out of it - it felt like that was the fastest that bike would ever go up that road - the perfect ride! And I felt like I pushed my luck beyond all limits - most of that road had no run-offs or safety rails. A mistake probably meant you were going into the side of the mountain, or off of the side of the mountain - probably the stupidest and luckiest I have ever been in my life!
But the thing is, the skills I learned, knowing how far a bike will really lean and how to get it down there quickly and smoothly, same for how quickly you can stop, realizing the value of smoothness and not upsetting the suspension, have saved my life many times. I was lucky to have learned in those days, the bikes, tires and suspensions were so bad that the bike would get out of shape when you were still going slow enough to get it back. Now, I fear for the kids coming up that bikes are so good that by the time anything starts to go wrong they're going so fast they'll never have that chance to learn. Hopefully, they'll never have to, they can go way faster than I ever did almost without effort.
Oh, dang - sorry for the book! That a riding course! It'll probably be the most fun you'll ever have out of bed, and you will be many times safer (and be more relaxed and have more fun) on your bike!
PS. I got a look at a restored TX500 the other day and got scared all over again - that bike has one front disc about the size of a small salad plate and a drum rear brake - and I was racing that going down a mountain?!! Gave me chills!
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Nice work Dale, bet that was fun!
k lim
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I agree with this ^ ^ ^
The OP may have been referring to a MotoJitsu video I saw where the author was following and semi-berating a BMW or similar adv. bike counter-leaning in the twisties as "poor technique" that could "lead to a crash" or something like that..
I saw shortly afterwards that FortNine video of the police training counter-leaning, in extreme conditions, even at higher speeds, as a technique used in order to maintain control of the vehicle.
These two videos seemed to contradict one another, and yet, after thinking about it, it makes sense.
True, counter-leaning will require the rider to lean the bike MORE to achieve the same turn radius, but it gives a margin of safety, enabling the rider to quickly recover the bike back up if traction drops suddenly and the bike begins to low-side (like how a dirt rider might position themselves when drifting the rear-wheel out of a corner).
And also true; leaning off the bike into the turn will allow the rider to lean the bike LESS to achieve the same turning radius, giving slightly more traction for cornering and mid-turn adjustments, and allow the bike's steering geometry to follow its natural line (at the race track).
It's hard to say which one is "correct"; maybe it's more accurate to say that both have their place as a riding technique..
(Another good take-away from this thread is probably that public roads aren't really the place for trying to shave seconds off your lap-times, regardless of what technique you're using..)
As this pertains to the FJR? It's a heavy beast that will take a bit longer to respond to rider 'body-language' (as compared to a full on sport bike); so maybe it's better to focus more on handle-bar inputs and less on throwing the rider's weight around?
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Dale_I
Active member
If you focus on handlebar input you will be at a greater lean angle than if you transferred weight. Lean angle equals risk. It is not one or the other, it is both. The heavier the bike, the more weight transfer will help.
If you think about sitting still, if you lean you will fall over. The more you lean, the quicker you fall over. If you use speed in the corner to counter the fall, the more weight transfer you create, the faster you have to go to stay up and not fall over.
If you think about sitting still, if you lean you will fall over. The more you lean, the quicker you fall over. If you use speed in the corner to counter the fall, the more weight transfer you create, the faster you have to go to stay up and not fall over.
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