Troubleshooting Bad Starter (?)

[Dudewado]

I rode from work to the store, and after leaving the store, it turned over very slowly, and wouldn't start. After a couple of tries it cranked enough to start and got me home.

First thing I thought was loose battery cable. They seemed fine, and when I tried, starter turned a little faster and it fired up.

Next day, after being on tender all night, it wouldn't start. Bike has been ridden all winter, off and on and been on tender.

I ASSumed the battery was bad and bought new one. Put it in, charged it overnight and still had slow starter and no start.I tried jumping with two different portable jump starters, with no change.

I have done voltage drop test from battery to both sides of the starter relay, and read about 1/2 volt.

I'm getting ready to start pulling plastic to do more checks and have some questions:

1. Where does the negative battery cable bolt to the frame?

2. How to do voltage drop test on negative cable?

3. Can you get to the positive connection on the starter with the fairings pulled, or do you have to go in from the top and pull air box, fuel rail etc.?

I have Y.E.S. warranty, but closest dealer is 60 miles, and I trust myself to do job more than an unknown.

Any advice that doesn't involve sheep would be appreciated.

John

 

[RossKean]

Start with a DC clamp-on ammeter to see how much current the starter is drawing. If you are north of 100 amps, it is a pretty good chance that the starter is bad. If current is not that high, you may have starter solenoid (or other) issues.

If you have "Yes", it becomes the dealer's problem but it is nice to know what it is before taking it in. You don't want them taking a week to diagnose, two weeks to get the parts (whatever is needed) and another couple of weeks to get it fixed! Happens too often this time of year when everyone is trying to get bikes back on the road.

 

[Dudewado]

Yes, I am drawing 150-200A, according to clamp-on meter. I am fairly sure starter is bad, but wanted to do voltage drop test on pos and neg leads first.

Also, I did locate pos connection to starter, and measured a drop of between .4-1V.

If I can find the end of the neg cable and it reads OK, I'll be confident it is the starter.

Thanks,

John

 

[dcarver]

John,

See pic. Big black wire on LHS of pic where the crankcases split.

 

[Dudewado]

John,
See pic. Big black wire on LHS of pic where the crankcases split.

Thank you Mr. Carver!

 

[mech 1 twa]

A few old post here about starters filling with engine oil and causing problems. O ring is not a part you can get from Yamaha. If that's the case damage is already done. Could be starter relay but very few failures that I know of.

 

[road runner]

John,

Just do negative test between battery neg and starter case. If you have more than .5-.7 volts then dig further. That will check the entire circuit. Same on pos side, from battery to starter terminal......does sound like a starter though.

 

[dcarver]

que up the Rolling Stones .... Well you can start me up! (or not!)

 

[Dudewado]

I finally got there. I had it narrowed down to a bad starter, ground cable, or ground connection when Ionbeam PM'd me and pointed out a bad connection wouldn't let it pull such high amperage. (Thanks Allen!)

So, starter it is. On a 2014 with 16,200 miles. I ordered a new starter from Partzilla, (for $343 with free shipping), and started disassembly.

From reading an old thread started by wfooshe, I knew what had to come off:

-Fuel tank

-Tool tray

-Air box

-T-brace

-Fuel injection

Manual says whole fuel injection assembly has to come out, but after loosening the clamps, I was able to pull the assembly from the manifolds and move it out of the way

without disconnecting the throttle cables or any wire connectors or hoses.

If you have a decent set of tools, it's not as hard as it looks. Getting to the screws for the clamps on the rubber boots requires different lengths of extensions, a 4mm allen socket, and a 4 mm t-handle.

The only other hard part is the drain hose on the bottom of the air box. I had to use a hemostat to hold the hose in place, then push it on when the air box was almost seated.

Also, having a cell phone camera makes life so much easier than it used to be.

When I hooked it all back up and pushed the start button, I realised that my old starter must have been slowly slowing down over time without me noticing.

The new starter spins a whole lot faster.

Thanks for the help.

John

 

[RossKean]

A post-mortem on the old starter might be helpful. I can't see that it is likely to be simply worn out - lots have gone ten times that many miles. Oil leak, damaged commutator, brushes, shorted windings, bearings etc.

 

[dcarver]

Send your old one to FjRay, he cleans then up, puts in new o-rings, machines the armature then provides them to the fjr community for reasonable cost. I still think new is best, but some of us can't afford new $$.

Congratulations!

Oh, and how much fun was it, putting the airbox boots back onto the the throttle bodies?

 

[mech 1 twa]

A post-mortem on the old starter might be helpful. I can't see that it is likely to be simply worn out - lots have gone ten times that many miles. Oil leak, damaged commutator, brushes, shorted windings, bearings etc.

Yeah I want to know also.

 

[Dudewado]

Oh, and how much fun was it, putting the airbox boots back onto the the throttle bodies?

Like putting socks on a rooster.

Actually wasn't as bad as the older bikes I have had. Of course the rubber is still pretty pliable.

Still haven't cracked the old starter; If Ray rebuilds them, I will gladly send it to him.

 

[FJRay]

A post-mortem on the old starter might be helpful. I can't see that it is likely to be simply worn out - lots have gone ten times that many miles. Oil leak, damaged commutator, brushes, shorted windings, bearings etc.

I've done at least a dozen of them and none were worn out, just impacted with with crap to the point the segments short out. I run them through the ultrasonic cleaner and turn the comutator. A few got brushes and all get new seal.

 

[wfooshee]

Years ago I had a starter peg my meter, which reads to 160 amps. Still worked, a little bit, if the engine was cold. At gas stations I'd have to go inside and pretend to shop for 15 or 20 minutes to give everything time to cool off enough to start; it would NOT crank hot! On disassembly of the starter, found magnets loose inside the case, and had been rubbed by the rotating parts. Wasn't pretty.

But yeah, once you see current draw that high, you're through testing. No need to look anywhere else.

 

[Harald]

Another part to look at is the starter relay. I had one replaced under my YES warranty because it would click, but wouldn't close the main contacts consistently. Worked fine for many years until my starter failed.

I had one of the infamous bad oil seal starters that I rebuilt to fix the problem. After the rebuild the bike would sometimes still not start with the authority I would expect. I hooked my volt meter across the starter relay main contacts and found about 0.6 volt drop across the contacts when starting. I suspect the super high current draw through the relay deteriorated the contacts causing excessive voltage drop. A new relay I put in reads less than 0.2 volt drop and now my 130,000 mile FJR starts with authority!

 

[YummYam]

Seems there could be a starter issue on my 2007 AE with 25xxx miles.

Still gotta do the current draw test, what’s the quickest way to get access to the relevant test point in the cable?

Thanks

 

[mcatrophy]

Seems there could be a starter issue on my 2007 AE with 25xxx miles.
Still gotta do the current draw test, what’s the quickest way to get access to the relevant test point in the cable?

Thanks

The negative battery lead.

 

[YummYam]

Thanks mcatrophy.

Ok. So that’s something I didn’t know, along with almost everything else concerning electrikery. Thought it had to be the positive lead.

I’ll remove the battery cover and see how the access is for the clamp on thing I’m borrowing.