Valve Shimming - Look Like My Luck Has Run Out

[Fred W]

Hey Fred,

Is it possible to request the parts list required to do the valve check? It is my understanding the seal for the valve cover itself is re-usable, but I know there several smaller pieces needed (like o-rings and such). Figured this would be fresh info since you are into you check. I have looked back through some of the past threads and checked the Bin O’ Facts area and have not been successful in finding a parts list for our GEN-1 rides. A valve check is in the cards for me while I’m off for the holidays later this month along with fluid changes. Maybe we can even get one of the admins to add it to the Bin O’ Facts (once they get past the dust from this upgrade). Thanks for all your contributions to the group. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.

George

Thanks for the kind words, George. I know many of you appreciate my on-topic posts, which is a big motivation for me in continuing to spew them out. That, and as Redfish says, I just like to show off.

The beauty part of doing your own valve checks is that the only parts required are the o-rings for the coolant pipe connections and to the thermostat housing. The valve cover gasket it a thick solid rubber dealio. There is no chance of tearing it, and you can use a little RTV or other sealant near the cam cutout, half moons if it makes you feel better. I've done 3 checks with the same gasket and not bothered with the sealant. The oil in the valve cover is pretty low pressure (just splashing) so no leakage is likely. Just be careful to get it back in position correctly.

The o-rings are different sizes for 1st and 2nd gens. I found some close in size for my first gen at the local Home Depot, a box of 10 each for cheap money, during the first check, so I still have a bunch left after my 3rd. I did buy a timing chain cover gasket before my first, but have yet to use it.

And then there are the shims if you need 'em.

 

[RossKean]

Nice! Did you recheck the clearances after you put it back together?

Did you have a chance to road test once it was buttoned up? I would assume there would not be a perceptible change in engine performance.

Valve check is on the menu for the off season. I have just over 30,000 miles since the last one and I also had a couple of intakes close to the minimum specification. I expect I will need to re-shim a couple.

 

[Fred W]

Recheck? Hell yes!!

Before I put anything else back together I rechecked the clearances, after re-torquing the cam shaft caps, checking my timing 3 or 4 times, rotating the engine multiple rotations by hand (to make sure there was no interference) and then rechecking the timing another 2-3 times. See the last line in the spreadsheet screen capture above for the results. I am pretty satisfied with those, though I wish I had been just a bit less aggressive with the sandpaper on 1-1 and 3-2. Still... I'm happy with it.

After the valve check, and the engine (wince) test and warm up following, I did re-syncronise the throttles using my standard "Definitely Completely Un Authorized TBS" procedure, and was quite surprized by how much different the throttle plates needed to be. After the full procedure, I was very pleased at how smooth the engine was running, even at idle where it had always been just a bit lumpy.

As for seat of the pants, tomorrow promises to be an unseasonably warm day. I intend on burning some time off and get the bike back on the road for a real test. But I don't expect it to be particularly different either way. Just hope it will be good to go for another 100k miles.

 

[RossKean]

I shouldn't have needed to ask!!

I also hope to get a bunch more miles out of my '07 (~85,000 so far) and I will be similarly anal retentive when I do my valve check again this time. Doesn't matter how careful you are or how sure you did it right - there's always the nail biting moment when you hit the starter for the first time...

Managed to get out today for a short (100 mi) late season ride. Gave the beast a bath and will likely ride it out to its winter hibernation location tomorrow. Can't expect many further opportunities for a ride before they get the roads salted. In addition to the valve check, I have to do some farkle rewiring and get the Penske rear shock sent off for a refurb. Hate this time of year !

 

[RadioHowie]

Sweet post, Fred.

You ARE a crouton for punishment!!!

 

[escapefjrtist]

Thanks Fred, as always a great explanation and write up!

--G

 

[SeattleTy]

Invaluably done Fred, thank you for the knowledge and time

 

[SkooterG]

Excellent write-up Fred! At 38,000 miles since last adjustment I am overdue to do this maintenance my 04 FJR. Not riding it right now, but will be getting to it soon.

This ensures that the timing between the two cams will be maintained, but does not guarantee the timing between the two cams and the crank will be correct. For that you will need to pay extra attention, since there is no way to secure the chain to the crank sprocket (that I could find).

As has been written up here on the forum a few times, the way do ensure the crank sprocket does not lose timing when the chain is loose is to Ty-wrap the chain to itself just above the crank sprocket. Perhaps the Sharpie method would work here too?

If you look closely at the above photo, you can also see that I have marked a dot with a sharpie marker on the joint between each of the cam shafts and the cam cap brackets while the engine was at #1 TDC (before slackening the chain). This is the most valuable mark you can make because the dimples in the back side of #4 cam lobes (also in the picture) are too far away from the arrows to be useful, and you sure can't see the arrows on the cam sprockets next to the frame.

Great minds think alike! This is exactly what I was going to do on my next adjustment. The last one I had to adjust a couple exhaust shims and had to remove the forward cam. Well, there is no freaking way in hell you can get your head directly above the cam to look straight down to properly align the timing dots and marks.

The only problem with that was that the new tensioners do not seem to have a "detent" at the fully retracted position. Since you need to hold the chain fully slack while yanking the cam out, this presented a problem. My solution (look back to the red arrow in photo #1) was to use some hemostats to clamp a screwdriver in place after fully winding the tensioner. It worked OK, even overnight, which was really nice since the alternative was to remove the CCT entirely.

That new 'blue dot' CCT is a PITA! I can't tell you how many times I had to re-unwind that sucker. I am pretty sure I ended up doing something very similar to what you did.

I (really my dealer) have always replaced everything in the past, but this time I think I will try the frugal way. If your valve cover gasket has lasted 8 years, 75k miles, and three removals, then mine can go another one hopefully. I have one on hand just in case.

My dealer would always replace the rubber 'buttons' that are in the valve cover and that the valve cover bolts (to the cam caps) go through. Screw that. Those things are like $8 a piece retail. Maybe $5 a piece discounted.

Here's my parts list:

- 4 spark plugs. (This is when, and only when I change them.) Just normal non-iridium that I let go from valve check to valve check.

- Coolant. Got to drain it, so this is when (and only when) I change mine.

- The three rubber O-rings (two sizes for Gen I, slightly different for Gen II) for the coolant pipe.

Hopefully won't need to use them, but I always have them on hand just in case:

- Valve cover gasket

- Timing cover gasket

- Rubber O-ring for the timing cover access port.

- New washer for the coolant drain bolt

- Valve shims

- Extra valve cover bolt. ( I sheared one once loosening it. It was a used bike and whoever did the check previously WAY over-tightened it. As was the case with just about every bolt on that FJR.)

 

[Fred W]

Good list there skooter. Much better than mine (just o-rings?) as I forgot to add the spark plugs and coolant. Changing them both at the same time as the valve check /adjust just makes way too much sense not to.

As for the coolant, I don't bother with any ******** or flushing. I just drain what is in there, and replace what comes out with new coolant. The stuff that comes out after only a year or two is always pretty much pristine and could easily go on for another couple of years, but I like the idea of refreshing the corrosion inhibitors with a fresh charge. Think of it as similar to an oil change where we only get a little more than 4 out of the total 5 quarts of oil in the engine changed.

I do replace both the two smaller size o-rings on the coolant pipes and also the larger one for the thermostat every time I pull them apart. In 25 k miles they are always pressed int a square shape and that doesn't give me much expectation of a good reseal.

I've never replaced any of the other gaskets, don't use any sealant on the gaskets, and I've never had any oil leaks. I also never take off the timing cover access port plug since I use the rear wheel in 5th gear to bump over the engine for the preliminary clearance check (with the spark plugs out). Since a reshim was required this time, the whole cover just comes off and the gasket stayed whole (again). I do keep one of those on, hand just in case.

 

[BullCBX]

Thanks Fred and Skooter for confirming the parts list. Seems like a straight forward process. Definitely sounds easier than the valve check and re-shim required on the CBX. Especially the first time when I had to remove all the shims and document the base thickness so I knew what was there. Not going that route here. Will just check gaps and then adjust as necessary.

 

[road runner]

Nice work and writeup Fred. Your intakes should be good for another 70,000 miles.

 

[jcyuhn]

Thanks Fred, I really appreciate your detailed writeups. I just did a check on my '06 a few weeks ago and found your earlier post very helpful. It all went smoothly and, as is typical, no adjustment was required on my sadly low mile bike.

 

[Fred W]

Thanks for all of the positive comments everyone. They are all much appreciated.

I have one further thing to report on this thread, and then it can fade away into the ether of neglected threads. I took a good ride today. Well it was a good distance anyway. Any time you have to refuel twice in a day (starting with 1/2 a tank) you know it has been a "good day". The forecast that the weather guessers had predicted for today turned out to be a fallacy, but I was not deterred and rode a few hundred miles around NH and VT in a cold drizzle.

Out on the road I was really surprised by how differently the bike felt after the shimming. It has really smoothed out the vibrations considerably across the entire rpm band. Normally I only find these vibes objectionable on the highway, in the 4500-5000 rpm range that the bike begs to be ridden in to "make good time". Today the bike ran quite noticeably smoother from idle to 6k rpm (I never cruised above that). I'm not entirely sure if this was a result of the pre-valve adjust de-carbonizing fogging with spray Seafoam, the valve adjustment to increased clearances, or the RDCUA TBS after it was all done (but I've done a mess of those and this was the best yet by far). I have a feeling it was the valve clearance change, because I ran the bike after the Seafoaming and it wasn't smoother, but I also hadn't yet resynched the throttle bodies (that would have been the scientifically right move).

My hypothesis is that by increasing the intake clearances, I have backed off on the cam duration, so there will be slightly ******** intake opening, slightly earlier intake valve closing, and less valve overlap. The idle is audibly smoother (to be expected) but I also feel an increase in low rpm torque. It is actually very pleasant to drive the bike at 2500-3500 rpm, which was not really the case before. On a dyno, I am betting I have sacrificed some high rpm horsepower numbers. Probably not appreciable by seat of the pants, but the dyno knows (and tells) all.

OTOH, when it feels this damn good down low, that would definitely be a trade-off that I'd be willing to make any day.

It's pretty well established that Mamma Yamma delivers these engines with the intakes at the low clearance end of specs. And for most of them they stay there. I'm curious if any other folks who have opened up their intake clearances to the upper end of spec have noticed anything similar?

 

[garyahouse]

Enjoyed the write up and the pics. Yer the best, Fred. I'm thinking that you sanded about three thousandths or so off those things. BY HAND??? Good grief, no wonder your fingers are sore. I'm assuming that it's important to keep them square as you shorten them up. Did the mics confirm that the ends were parallel when you got done? I assume you removed all the material from just one end? Correct? You mentioned 220 grit. What grit did you polish them with?

Just Curious.

Gary

 

[dcarver]

Fred, you can keep showing off 24/7 as far as I'm concerned... I most always learn from your posts..

A note regarding my replacement gen2 engine. Bought used with 5k on it, it had more vibration than the original engine, especially at 5k rpm. Add another 10k on the new engine, and the 5k buzz is gone.. and the new engine is smoother across rpm range than the OEM engine ever was.

I think you're on the right track with the overlap theory..

 

[Fred W]

I'm thinking that you sanded about three thousandths or so off those things. BY HAND??? Good grief, no wonder your fingers are sore. I'm assuming that it's important to keep them square as you shorten them up. Did the mics confirm that the ends were parallel when you got done? I assume you removed all the material from just one end? Correct? You mentioned 220 grit. What grit did you polish them with?

Yes, you are correct. It was about .003" total removed from each shim, but obviously that varied by how many mm thick they were originally and how far off the clearances were.

To do the actual sanding I used 230 grit paper, a new sheet at the start of each shim. I sanded them on a clean, smooth, flat table (not really in the kitchen

) and just putting the shim under the tip of a finger with light pressure, making orbital / lapping motion on the paper. After a few minutes of sanding I would re-measure the shim's progress with the micrometer, which has gradations of .0005" on the vernier and you can interpolate between those a little.

When I was close to the target I polished out the scratches using 400 grit paper which had been previously used, and I intentionally did not change it out at all, so it didn't have much tooth left to it. Just enough to take down the high spots a little. This was actually one of my concerns with the sanding, that if I left too much roughness, that would result in a varying shim over time as the high spots got hammered down with use. I think I got them polished fine enough using this technique, but only time will tell.

I did make an effort to concentrate the measurements primarily in the very center of the shim, as that is the only spot that bears on the smaller diameter dimple on the underside of the bucket. But I also checked for parallel while sanding and they were well within .0005" in variation from edge to edge, so I don't see that as a big problem. By keeping even, fairly light finger pressure with just one finger I think that helps keep them even.

By the way, the sanding wasn't all that difficult, which makes me wonder exactly how "hardened" these things actually are.

Glad you guys liked the write up.

 

[CAJW]

After reading and re-reading this most excellent post, appropriate links to photos and Yamafitter's spreadsheet, I think I can do this. What could go wrong?!

Thanks a bunch Fred as this sounds like a good rainy day project. Now to assemble the parts, necessary quantities of alcohol and wait for the planets to align to get started with this.

 

[odot]

I wonder....if we all would concentrate on the same bottle of alcohol.....would the concentration of alcohol become greater?

Just curious. When we start nickeling and diming each other.....will the dollar become cheaper?.....or more expensive.

jes' curious

 

[Canadian FJR]

"My hypothesis is that by increasing the intake clearances, I have backed off on the cam duration, so there will be slightly ******** intake opening, slightly earlier intake valve closing, and less valve overlap. The idle is audibly smoother (to be expected) but I also feel an increase in low rpm torque. It is actually very pleasant to drive the bike at 2500-3500 rpm, which was not really the case before. On a dyno, I am betting I have sacrificed some high rpm horsepower numbers. Probably not appreciable by seat of the pants, but the dyno knows (and tells) all. "

Taking this theory a little further, would tighter (still within spec) valve clearences improve your top end?

Canadian FJR

 

[road runner]

Yes, but you may not notice it. When my 500ci mopar was on the dyno I actually played with valve clearance and saw the change in power up top. I don't remember, but it was only like 10 or 15 HP at 5000 RPM on a 585 HP engine. If your engine lives in the upper RPM like a drag engine it might be worth it, but what you would lose in low end torque would make it not worth doing on a street driver.