What are the symptoms of a shot starter?

[luvtoride]

I think that I have one. I have a volt meter installed. What is the magic # that I'd be looking for to know the stater is pulling a shitload of current.

Here are my symptoms... It has been doing it for awhile. Dealer told me that the starter isn't my issue. A battery is my issue. That was a year-ish ago. A new battery installed & issue disappeared for the most part for several months... but it is back now & has slowly reared it's head since battery replacement.

It only seems to happen if I stop for gas or anything that makes me turn the bike off & then trying to start it back up in a short amount of time after. Before it would turn very very slow (no clock reset), I'd hit the button again & usually it would kick over with a try or two.

So, yesterday I take my first ride of the season after charging the battery with a trickle charger. Embarrassingly enough I haven't been on the bike since October... so I trickle charged my battery about a day & 1/2.

I stop for gas & bike will not re-start. even after several tries of the starter button. & I even got NOTHING... no turning at all. I'm not sure why I tried it but I did a WFO throttle causing fast starter & bike starts right up. WTH man!

Anyway, does this sound like the starter? I had one anticipating needing it & cannot find it. Before purchasing another I'd like to be sure that this is my problem.

 

[Fred W]

The symptoms are nearly indistinguishable from a weak battery.

Try another battery. It's a whole lot cheaper than digging into the engine far enough to remove the starter motor..

What kind of battery did they install last time?

 

[ionbeam]

• It only seems to happen if I stop for gas or anything that makes me turn the bike off & then trying to start it back up in a short amount of time
• it would turn very very slow (no clock reset), I'd hit the button again & usually it would kick over with a try or two.
• I stop for gas & bike will not re-start. even after several tries of the starter button.
• I even got NOTHING... no turning at all.
• I'm not sure why I tried it but I did a WFO throttle causing fast starter & bike starts right up.

These are the symptoms of a bad starter. It's also the symptoms of a weak charging system, a bad battery, bad battery connections or bad battery cables. Sorry there is no easy answer. The on-bike volt meter may not be sufficient for troubleshooting. In any case, a volt meter is hard to use to diagnose a bad starting system.

Holding the throttle open lets the cylinders breath easier which makes it easier for the starter to spin the engine.

Ideally, to troubleshoot this problem you would use an amp meter, it is clear, fast and accurate and takes all the guess work out of the troubleshooting.

To troubleshoot with a volt meter you would like to at least know the battery is good and fully charged. If you or your mechanic has a hand-held meter we can give you the steps to go through the troubleshooting process but the battery should be a known good item first.

This kind of clamp-on amp meter is really good because it has a peak hold function, is fully self contained and offers as many functions as a DMM. The down side is that it requires some user electronic experience. I have one and it works well. <$35 and Chinese, which is where some of the funky display things come from that requires some electronic knowledge to overcome.

This kind of amp probe plugs into any DMM and reads current quite accurately. This one is easier to use but bigger and harder to get into small spaces. Umm, I have one of these too and it is my first go-to amp probe. ~$75 depending on the supplier. There are better but the price climbs really quickly.

Edit: I see Fred posted the same thing while I was typing.

 

[RaYzerman19]

Heidi, what has been the state of battery charge since October, ie, did you charge it periodically, etc. in all that time?

 

[Constant Mesh]

Mine did the same thing. Each time after I replaced the battery the problem disappeared.

I'd measure the battery terminal voltage before the first start of the day and it always was 12.8 or higher. Yet the battery would fail spectacularly when trying to make a hot restart after refueling.

The internal resistance of the battery obviously increased over time and the voltage drop became excessive during starting.

Anytime the starter motor is accelerating up to its normal operating speed the current is elevated above normal running current.

During a hot start my starter motor struggled to accelerate up to speed so the current was really high. A good low internal resistance battery can accelerate the starter motor properly. A bad battery struggles.

Apparently a hot start after a brief refueling stop is the most difficult starting situation for this engine. My bad batteries were usually adequate otherwise except for the hot starts.

 

[luvtoride]

The battery is only a bit over a year old. I "think" that I put a Yuasa in there. Something is definitely going on. Like I said... Dealer told me battery so, I replaced it. I have 109,000 miles & I think that I'm on my 5th battery. This starter thing has been happening for a few years now... very intermittently. Sometimes it wouldn't do it at all. Now, it seems that it's all the time. I guess that I'll start by taking the battery out & having it tested to be sure that it is known to be good. I guess that is a starting point.

Heidi, what has been the state of battery charge since October, ie, did you charge it periodically, etc. in all that time?

no. Clock seems to have kept it's time. I guess that it draws a low current & isn't an indicator that the battery hasn't fully discharged.

 

[Constant Mesh]

The battery can have an excessive internal resistance and still operate low current loads adequately. The voltage drop for small current loads will be tolerable.

If the battery has problems it will be apparent for cold starts too. Mine started fine when cold but it was obvious that it wasn't providing almost instantaneous starts like one experiences with a good battery.

But, the problem was always highlighted during a hot start after a brief shutdown.

 

[luvtoride]

I am certainly tired of replacing the battery. I suppose keeping the battery on a trickle charger during the cold months is the best idea, eh? I normally do not use a battery tender & it has shown over the years.

 

[mcatrophy]

Starter relay?

 

[luvtoride]

I guess that's a possibility. How do you test it?

 

[mcatrophy]

Voltage before and after the contacts when pressing the starter.

 

[luvtoride]

sounds easy enough. Where is it located? I am sure that I can get a hold of a multi meter. I don't have one personally.

 

[RaYzerman19]

I would say start with the basics, the battery. I think since the battery wasn't on a smart charger (Battery Tender, Optimate, etc.) since October, I would have the battery checked with a load test. It may be OK, it may not (you only charged it for a short time before you started the bike, so it didn't get a full charge). There is a parasitic draw as long as the battery is connected to the bike, so it would need periodic charging while in storage. Some would say don't leave a Battery Tender connected all the time, but I've never had a problem doing so, and I do both. If the bike is going to sit more than a couple of weeks, I would plug in.

Edumacation on batteries can be had from a few sources, here's a couple - https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/

https://www.yuasabatteries.com/faqs.php

Another test you can do is to measure the voltage drop (measure voltage before and during and after) while cranking the starter, which may give some indication of battery/starter health. We can look into this more at InTech Day if it's still on.....

 

[Fred W]

One other thing to check, since you say the problem happens on hot starts, what is your charging voltage? Do you have a volt meter on the bike? If not, can you hook your voltmeter up to the battery terminals while the bike is running both cold and after it is fully warmed up, and check what the charging voltage is? It should be at least 14V at all times with no added accessory loads. If the battery is not being fully charged while you ride that could be the culprit.

The FJR in known to draw more power from the battery in hot start situations. When a battery is nearing its end of life, it often results in low voltage sags during hot starts first. Sometimes that results in slower cranking, clock and trip meter resets of the instruments, and eventually no start situations.

A year old battery is not automatically assumed to be good.

You may think that you are sick of changing batteries, but just wait till you have the "opportunity" to change a starter...

 

[mcatrophy]

sounds easy enough. Where is it located? I am sure that I can get a hold of a multi meter. I don't have one personally.

In this picture, it's at the left end of those fat red wires coming from the battery.(Click on image for larger view)



Although I've never experienced a bad battery, starter relay or starter motor, I've read about a few who have.

A bad starter motor generally draws far more current than it should, so dropping the battery voltage enough to reset the gauges.

Ditto with a bad battery, its voltage drops even with the nomal starter motor current.

If the starter relay goes bad, not enough current flows to turn the motor, not enough current to drop the battery voltage.

 

[dcarver]

Uh-rrrrrrr, rrrr, r.

Click

<ducking now>

 

[Queensland Ken]

The best way to check is to tong test the battery during start up.

You will need a DC tong, (current) tester.

I think normal starting current is around 80 amps.

There was one post here a few years ago where a forum member measured his bikes crook starter and I think it measured around 140 amps.

The commutator on the stator was totally gummed up and shorting, the oil seal was leaking.

Starting voltage shouldn't drop down past about 10.4 volts.

When my battery went south, the bike would start ok, be it a bit slower, and clag up when warm.

Dash would dim, gauges reset, starter relay would chatter away.

The drop tester indicated a fail cell.

 

[wfooshee]

80 to 85 amps would be a cap for cranking current turning over the engine. If the starter was out and on a bench, 35 amps would be the highest you should see.

My starter back in 2009 pegged my ammeter at 160 amps. Had pretty much the exact symptoms Heidi describes: at a gas stop I could count on it being unstartable for 15 minutes or so, but after that you would never know anything was wrong.

Starter replacement fixed it completely. The battery I had during that episode didn't last much longer, so spring 2010, I got a new one. That battery is still in the bike. I got a used starter from a forum member.

The only way to tell for sure if it's the starter or the battery is to measure the cranking current. If the starter demands more than 85 amps or so, it's got to go.

It's a ***** to get to, though. The entire intake system has to come off, throttle bodies included. Once there, the starter is easy: one electrical connection and two bolts.

 

[luvtoride]

I plan to do some troubleshooting this weekend.