What does it take to...

[cougar8000]

Not to take this another topic of its route I have decided to open a new one.

It all started with Bungie aka Steve saying the following:”Truthfully, she shouldn't be riding, how she passed a course is beyond me”.

AS one of the MSF instructors and many others would sure back me up on this many people who pass MSF, State, or a private school should not be allowed any where near two wheels. Problem is we have integrity or at least we think we do.

It is not that hard to pass the test and many people assume right away that they can handle anything thrown at them. Remember the post two weeks ago about grieving mother? It is a land of the free and we pay for it dearly some times.

We are either to damn stupid or too damn proud, you pick which one, to start using European licensing system and educational path.

That system is used in many places across the globe. One starts small like 250 and has to put so many miles and test to prove that they are ready for 500 and so on.

Two month ago MCN had a great write up on the UK training system. It appears that we might have something like this in the states, but since it is not required and our lawyer happy system prohibits its spread we are doomed and probably will never adopt that system.

So, Steve, please do not blame us. Blame the system. We are there to record what student did, not to judge if they will be safe or not on the street. Most of the times those that should not ride do not pass, but sometimes it happen. And that is when I have to ask my and my partner integrity on do we fudge the numbers or not. I should stop here. Hopefully it gave you and idea on what you might be dealing with.

 

[Tenchi]

First of all, to cougar8000 and all the instructors out there - thank you for the time and effort you put into the training of new motorcyclists everywhere.

There will always be students who pass but shouldn't have; but there will probably be many, many more students who in the first 6 months will use absolutely everything taught on those courses. I know I used everything taught on that course the first day I got my bike, and I'm glad I had the opportunity to do it. The system may be flawed and way too easy to pass, but the teachers were genuinely top notch and gave great advice. Given the alternative is release hundreds of motorcyclists basically untrained and lacking an appropriate skill set to the main roads based on some simple DOT test, I like the MSF course much better.

 

[Wolfhound]

At least there is some training now, although riding a bike takes a lot of hands on activity you only get by doing it. It's a shame we allow younger people (say under 21 for now) to get any type of sportbike they desire. Even after many years of riding there are still a lot who have no business with a hand on the throttle.

 

[Toecutter]

What does it take to...

Was there a question somewhere in there?

 

[cougar8000]

No there was no question anywhere...more of explanation to the question asked in another post.

Tenchi, I am glad you have enjoyed the program. I by no means meant to say that it is not working per say. You are obviously one of the examples that it does, but there is no reason to make it better by employing UK system.

 

[myzen]

Hey Cougar, I had a student this weekend who was "borderline". He was 15 yoa and missed 9 on the written test. When we went outside, he had decent skills riding but blew the swerve costing him 15 pts and 5 on the 135, but he still passed. fortunately here in Oklahoma he still has to take both the written and riding course at the DMV to get his "M". I am not confident that he will pass it.

I personally feel there should be a tiered system for licensing in the US. Heck, there are a lot of older people who come through class that need much more training.

When I hand them their certificates, I tell them: "This is not your license to ride, this is your license to PRACTICE." Some people get it, some don't.

 

[CHRIS_D]

Cougar

I feel the same way.

It really scares me seeing some these riders who you have coached all weekend and you just know in your heart they don't belong on a motorcycle and then bam they manage to pass the skills test. Like you said some people just have no business being on a motorcycle.

 

[Silver Penguin]

Been there, done that. Watched a student who had NO business whatsoever riding a bicycle, actually get his act together and pass the test. He was cautioned by another Rider Coach that the certificate didn't mean that he was ready for anything other than a whole lot of practicing.

OTOH, I've seen a lot of candidates either fail, or near miss, due to anxiety about the test itself. These are the ones who are over thinking what they're doing because they care so much about it.

I'm in favor of the tiered licensing but can't see it happening.

Jill

 

[airboss]

Cougar, my Daughter just took the MSF beginners course here in Illinois this pass summer. first of all she's smart (got that from her mother) second she's coordinated( volleyball and softball) so she had no problem with the class room or the riding, aced both. I think the most valuable lesson she learned in the classes and the lesson most of the brighter students learn is they are by no means ready to jump on a bike and go out and play in traffic. They recognize the course for what it is, a way to begin.

Thanks again for your efforts. :clapping:

 

[Checkswrecks]

First, I'm glad we have the MSF and State safety programs. It was the Wild West when I learned to ride and a lot more people got hurt.

We all know a person like the young lady who shouldn't be near the controls. The thing is that somebody probably once said the same about each of us. My high school best friend almost killed me in two separate airplanes. The guy's brilliant and after both times, his mind was totally focused but not multi-tasking as it needed to be. Fortunately, most people either learn and smarten up or recognize their lack of comfort and find something else to do. My friend and I talked a lot of long talks after our second near-miss, he did the latter, and found a different hobby.

The tiered licensing system has a lot of advantages, but sure isn't in our near future politically. Giving a person a ration of crap may feel good, but it's more likely to make them dig their heels in. At this point in this country, all we can do is try to get them to admit their lack of comfort and accept either training or another alternative. I guess that's part of living where we have a choice.

 

[Fred W]

And then there is the flip side...

My son has ridden dirt bikes all of his life. He got his NH permit and we rode a lot of backroads, follow the leader, you know... We talked about the rides, what was good, bad, etc... How to be safe. I'm constantly amazed at howlevel headed he is because he is absolutely nothing like me when I was his age. :blink:

He went to take the state exam on the Ducati Monster I had at the time and was flabbergasted to fail the skills test. I was surprised as well, knowing how well he could handle a bike in low speed parking lot situations (due to his dirt biking) such as what the skills test is. So I rode my bike (a BMW R1100RS at the time) over to the skills test range with him. There was no way in hell I could get that Ducati around that course. You just could not turn the handlebars far enough due to the short steering lock. Even running at say ~1 mph, you couldn't do it with both feet on the ground. So how good a test is that of rider skill, and how much is it what bike you are on when testing?

I figured the Beemer was too heavy of a bike to take the test on, even though I could get it around the course. So I enrolled him in the Basic class, which allowed him to take the test on the little 250cc cruiser style POS bikes they use for the training. The instructors were chuckling when he would grind the pegs on the corners and generally show that he had some decent skills. He didn't get much out of the basic class except for the opportunity to test at the end. I intend to take him back and do an advanced class or two, maybe we can both get more out of.

Doing rider training and the state skills testing in a tight, low speed parking lot course is a cruel joke. I don't know a better way to do it, but I really do not think it is the best possible test for whether a rider is ready for the open road or not. This is clearly evidenced by the number of new riders that passed the test (usually through the training) and then proceed to crash in their first year of riding.

 

[kulwen]

There is some interesting reading here:

Disappointment with MSF Rider course and License test waiver

 

[myzen]

Hey Fred,that sounds like the same test they give in Illinois, it can be a ***** on a bigger bike. Here in Okieland the on road test is a huge joke. The DMV follows you in a car and instructs you when to turn via a headset you put on under your helmet.

 

[cougar8000]

Fred, state test I head is much harder then MSF test. MSF test I can ace on the FJR and once did a Uee on a R1. Can't remember if it was 20 or 24, but it was doable considering it was my first time on the bike. I am glad that state test is harder. More people come and see us

 

[happyPuppy]

It really depends on the instructors. I took it and I thought the people teaching it were utterly incompetent to teach it. From screaming at people to the point of tears, a course with potholes and smart *** answers. Example a question was "How do I pick up a big bike?" The woman pointed to a Goldwing. The fellow laughed and said " Get help!" After everyone passed I told them exactly what I thought of their "instruction" (Intimidation) and sent an e-mail to the MSF, never heard back. In WA we have some excellent MSF and other coaches I have met over the years. The MSF ever since they dumbed down BRC has been suspect. Having 2 excellent neighboring states with far better programs OR and ID , makes me wish it was open to competition , rather than MSF is the only recognized program a state can have, as it is in most. The ERC is just as bad, teaching TCLOCKS again? They are supposed to be experienced riders. Why not group riding? Why repeat everything? Geez just use Lee Parks program and license it from him. Every year I take a new course to improve my skill , and they really help "get the rust off" at the start of the season, and gain skills. I am glad to see the MSF coaches among us, get angry at the lousy coaches , they should be booted. They really want to create safe riders which is good to see. The problem is MSF and the material IMO.

 

[CHRIS_D]

It really depends on the instructors. I took it and I thought the people teaching it were utterly incompetent to teach it. From screaming at people to the point of tears, a course with potholes and smart *** answers. Example a question was "How do I pick up a big bike?" The woman pointed to a Goldwing. The fellow laughed and said " Get help!" After everyone passed I told them exactly what I thought of their "instruction" (Intimidation) and sent an e-mail to the MSF, never heard back. In WA we have some excellent MSF and other coaches I have met over the years. The MSF ever since they dumbed down BRC has been suspect. Having 2 excellent neighboring states with far better programs OR and ID , makes me wish it was open to competition , rather than MSF is the only recognized program a state can have, as it is in most. The ERC is just as bad, teaching TCLOCKS again? They are supposed to be experienced riders. Why not group riding? Why repeat everything? Geez just use Lee Parks program and license it from him. Every year I take a new course to improve my skill , and they really help "get the rust off" at the start of the season, and gain skills. I am glad to see the MSF coaches among us, get angry at the lousy coaches , they should be booted. They really want to create safe riders which is good to see. The problem is MSF and the material IMO.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. Where they actually "screaming" or just talking loud? Remember you must talk loud on the range so everyone can hear you over the bikes, we call it our "range voice". Yes, I have had riders cry, but it was because they where frustrated with themselves not because I was yelling at them.

By the way, the reason MSF went from the MRC program to the BRC program was because they received many complaints that the MRC course was too much like a military boot camp.

 

[Bungie]

It all started with Bungie aka Steve saying the following:”Truthfully, she shouldn't be riding, how she passed a course is beyond me”.
So, Steve, please do not blame us. Blame the system. We are there to record what student did, not to judge if they will be safe or not on the street. Most of the times those that should not ride do not pass, but sometimes it happen. And that is when I have to ask my and my partner integrity on do we fudge the numbers or not. I should stop here. Hopefully it gave you and idea on what you might be dealing with.

First off it's Steve, aka Bungie

I didn't mean to point the finger at anybody, if I did, it was inadvertent.

Believe me when I say I know what instructors go through. I ride with 3 of them on a pretty regular basis. Their the first ones to admit, as do you, that the system isn't perfect. But I believe it does work. Sidenote; Have any studies been done into any corelations between accidents and education..

I'm 47, aw crap, 48 in less than a month, and I've been riding since I was 14. Their was about a 10 yr lay off period after a REALLY bad road rage scare in Toronto. So bad that I lost my nerve. When I did decide to get back on the horse, and after finding out how much of an insurance break I'd get, I enrolled in the course in 2002. I didn't think I really belonged in that class. I mean, the basic riding skills were ingrained right to the muscle memory, but I find I did learn some new things. Worthwhile, even for an experienced rider. Unfortunately they don't offer an advanced rider course in this town, I'd take that as well.

I realize we all started somewhere, but I've seen a handful that are freshly minted out of the school that should NOT have passed. They just managed to get lucky on the skills portion. Some Ace the test, some fail, those are those in the bell curve. Its those that the course is supposed to weed out, that managed to pass for whatever reason, that are going to cause the instructors to question their intentions. It comes with the territory. I hope you guys can take comfort in knowing that you've opened the eyes of those that were never meant to ride, be it from issues with manual dexterity or the mental. Your doing far more good than harm with the few that manage fall between the cracks.

 

[Fred W]

Fred, state test I head is much harder then MSF test. MSF test I can ace on the FJR and once did a Uee on a R1. Can't remember if it was 20 or 24, but it was doable considering it was my first time on the bike. I am glad that state test is harder. More people come and see us

Yeah, that is the silver lining, I suppose. The more newby riders that take the beginner course the better. But for experienced riders that just have a bike with a large turning radius it isn't so equitable.

As has been previously suggested, you can pass the state skills exam with a bike like that. You just have to decide in advance which lines you are intentionally going to blow, so that you can make enough of the skills without points deducted to pass. Unfortunately, the normal approach to the test is to attempt to ace every skill.

 

[FJR Flyer]

I worked for the Navy many years ago and was 'forced' to take the MSF class they offered on base, for free, to get my bike pass to ride on station. At that point, I had been riding for about half my life and my attitude going in was 'why do I need to do this?'. I was pleasantly surprised to realize I learned a hell of a lot, especially since I had my 'new' FJ for only a couple months. I use what I've learned every day, and it has saved my life or avoided severe injury many times.

I took the Advanced Riders Course several years later, and was very disappointed. The class and riding was almost the same as the BRC. I got more from reading the course manual than from what I got going to the actual course.

My $0.02.