v65
ouch
The "bolt" threads into the end of the axle. The axle is being held in by the pinch bolts.
What's missing in this picture?
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Joe2Lmaker
Well-known member
mdisher
formerly Renegade, get used to it.
I do believe it's a bolt screw. No, it's a screw-bolt.
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Joe2Lmaker
Well-known member
A twenty one page document released by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), the largest law enforcement agency within the Department of Homeland Security, defining the difference between a bolt and a screw...I thought that was a joke at first, I kept reading looking for the punchline, it never came. :blink:What Every Member of the Trade Community Should Know Aboutistinguishing Bolts from Screws <Link>
There's a joke there somewhere. It might not be as obvious as the Onion, but it's there!
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I'd never looked at the Gen II front axle hardware before. Obvious flaw in the design. Only some moron engineer would come up with that.
Raise your hand if you tightened the pinch bolts before torquing the bolt on the end of the axle down.
Great, now stop doing that. This design is a captured one with no torque on the wheel. The bolt bottoms against the axle end, (or should). If you tighten the pinch bolts, then torque the axle bolt, it's quite possible to torque the bolt down against the outside of the fork......... leaving it away from the end of the axle. After some miles, it will shift and then it's no longer tight against anything and comes loose, falls out and potentially bad things happen.
Torquing the axle bolt against the axle, (yes Johnny you need two wrenches), ensures that the bolt is actually torqued down against the flange of the axle and will stay there. Then tighten the pinch bolts last. The only thing the pinch bolts are for is so the lawyers don't have to go to work when your axle fell out because you tightened it wrong.
Raise your hand if you tightened the pinch bolts before torquing the bolt on the end of the axle down.
Great, now stop doing that. This design is a captured one with no torque on the wheel. The bolt bottoms against the axle end, (or should). If you tighten the pinch bolts, then torque the axle bolt, it's quite possible to torque the bolt down against the outside of the fork......... leaving it away from the end of the axle. After some miles, it will shift and then it's no longer tight against anything and comes loose, falls out and potentially bad things happen.
Torquing the axle bolt against the axle, (yes Johnny you need two wrenches), ensures that the bolt is actually torqued down against the flange of the axle and will stay there. Then tighten the pinch bolts last. The only thing the pinch bolts are for is so the lawyers don't have to go to work when your axle fell out because you tightened it wrong.
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dsmack
"Old, Slow, but Lucky"
Isn't that the damn truth! In typical government fashion, it is not only a joke, but tends to make a relatively simple idea even harder to understand... I read the first couple of pages of the document, and was immeditely stricken with the highly unfortunate use of the terms "coarse" and "fine" on about page 8 or so. Having worked with threaded fasteners my whole life, those two terms were understood to commonly refer to the pitch of the thread, i.e, SAE (fine) or US (coarse) threads in common US usage.
But NO... not when you're dealing with the Fed! In this little jewel of a publication, it refers to the overall concepts being considered ("Coarse" referring to the overall concepts with "Fine" referring to the minute details of applications). Jesus Cristo, that might have been written by my supervisor at work! :blink:
I like the way your mind works, Joe2Lmaker! :clapping:
Don
v65
ouch
I knew the difference between a bolt and screw right up to the point where I read that thing. Easy on the political stuff or bye bye thread.
SCRider
Well-known member
I make sure the axle is all the way in and just tighten the pinch bolts on the axle side to keep it from turning. I then torque the bolt to spec, loosen the pinch bolts to make sure the axle is centered, and then tighten all the pinch bolts. Seems to work fine.
:dribble: Please stop that. Use two wrenches. The pinch bolts are not intended to prevent rotation while you torque the axle down. This method will work 90% of the time, but it's wrong and it's that 10% that's going to bite you in the butt.
dcarver
Well-known member
Yeppers, I agree with my dark-side fiend on this one. And yes, I spelled fiend correctly! Just sayin'..
SCRider
Well-known member
The reason I did it that way is that I know that this type of clamp coupling method is the most common servo motor coupling type there is in industry and they are very good at handling torque. A joint of this size (28mm) is rated at about 138 lb-ft so the 66 lb-ft required to torque the bolt is well within it's limits. I know 2 wrenches is the most preferred method but it's kind of a pain.
Cdogman
Bad Boy
I started reading that 20 page POS doc.. and started having flashbacks to my navy days and tech pub manuals on the F18 Hornet (what I worked on in "The Nav") and had to stop when I was still reading about "Scope" on page 5
It is a bolt and they can get screwed if they dont like it
Shop manual calls it an Axle BOLT.. and I will go with Mamma Yamma,, They made the damm thing and can call it a friggin parachute if they want.. As long as I know how to use it
Jes Sayin
It is a bolt and they can get screwed if they dont like it
Shop manual calls it an Axle BOLT.. and I will go with Mamma Yamma,, They made the damm thing and can call it a friggin parachute if they want.. As long as I know how to use it
Jes Sayin
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Kind of a pain? You do have two hands. You know the correct method, yet choose to do otherwise.The reason I did it that way is that I know that this type of clamp coupling method is the most common servo motor coupling type there is in industry and they are very good at handling torque. A joint of this size (28mm) is rated at about 138 lb-ft so the 66 lb-ft required to torque the bolt is well within it's limits. I know 2 wrenches is the most preferred method but it's kind of a pain.
mg: This application is subject to rather more stress and variations than the average servo motor. I find it interesting also that this design calls for a higher torque than the previous design that threaded into the fork leg. (66 Vs 52 Ft/Lbs).Think of it this way, if the servo motor comes apart, what happens? If your axle falls out enough that it's no longer in both fork legs, what happens?
SCRider
Well-known member
Kind of a pain in that most people don't have a hex key that size and I've got 2 spark plug sockets in my tool box that don't have the 3/8" square hole broached all the way through. As long as the axle doesn't rotate while you're tightening it and you achieve the 66 lb-ft torque spec, it makes no difference how you hold the axle. It has nothing to do with servo motors failing, I was just using that as an example of how the clamp method is an industry standard for transmitting torque. If I thought for a second that it would somehow harm the fork leg, then I would use 2 wrenches.Kind of a pain? You do have two hands. You know the correct method, yet choose to do otherwise.The reason I did it that way is that I know that this type of clamp coupling method is the most common servo motor coupling type there is in industry and they are very good at handling torque. A joint of this size (28mm) is rated at about 138 lb-ft so the 66 lb-ft required to torque the bolt is well within it's limits. I know 2 wrenches is the most preferred method but it's kind of a pain.
Think of it this way, if the servo motor comes apart, what happens? If your axle falls out enough that it's no longer in both fork legs, what happens?
Your first point is absolutely correct in that you definitely don't want to tighten the clamp screws on the bolt side of the fork leg (left) and then torque the axle bolt or you could have some serious problems.
If you need a 19mm allen socket in 1/2" drive, PM me with your mailing address and I'll send you one. I make them up with a piece of allen wrench and a new 6-pt socket, pinning the allen bit in place.
Edit - corrected the size from 14mm, (rear axle), to 19mm(front axle).
Edit - corrected the size from 14mm, (rear axle), to 19mm(front axle).
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SCRider
Well-known member
Woops, I made the same assumption you did and thought that it was a captured design but I just went out and pulled the screw/bolt and the shaft is probably 1/16" inside the hole. The design is actually a "sandwiched" design where the entire assembly, including the aluminum fork outer tubes, is pulled together by the bolt. Therefore, it is definitely better to use the 2 wrench method as OCfjr is recommending.
All that aside, you can still use the clamp method it you don't have the 19mm hex tool. After you've torqued the assembly to 66 lb-ft, loosen the clamps (only the right side should be tight) and retorque the bolt. The tension already induced by the first tightening will keep the axle from turning and you'll be guaranteed the proper pull together force. But, if you don't have the tool, take OCfjr up on his generous offer and get the tool.
Sorry for the confusion.
ponyfool
Well-known member
I was going to go for the more obvious and say "The Rider", but I suppose a missing axle nut/bolt (don't want to get into the brewing political battle over the term ) is more important.
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