Wildly fluxuating voltages - Stator failure

[dcarver]

I use the same X50 on my DL650 and on my 06 FJR. The DL shows a steady 14.7, 14.8 vdc, steady and stable as can be. On the FJR, it fluctuates as per IonBeam's post and sillyscope screen. Both are wired identically.

 

[kaitsdad]

Well, boyz and girlz, I've made a little progress.

Still not running, as I am waiting for a gasket and new screws.

However, here's some really interesting pics taken earlier this evening. Now this is the first time that I can remember that I have had my hands on a stator, but there are enough differences to pique my interest. Hmmmmm.......

There is one other GenII bike that had a failed stator (that I know of)- DaSpyder's 2006 AE - Failed Stator - note the similarities between his symptoms and mine. Just for grins, I contacted him about his vin number. Seems his last five digits are 00064, mine are 00022 (California bike.) Both very early manufacture. Hmmmm.........

Here's DaSpyder's stator:

Here's mine:

Matching fry points.

Here's my old and new, side by side:

And now it gets really interesting:

I may be wrong, but it would appear that there are manufacturing differences between them.

Edge to edge - this really shows the apparent material loss on the old stator.

And sludge at the bottom of the case.

No smoking gun here that I can see, but some very curious conditions, eh?

 

[Khunajawdge]

Bummer Hal!

Outside of you and DaSpyda, I've never heard/seen a Gen II stater toast like a tater?

All's I know is my Electro Sport aftermarket stater ('05 Gen I) was painted light blue when I put it in around 25,000 miles ago. I did change all my running, tail, brake and blinker bulbs to LEDS, and I don't use my Hella FF 50's or the Widder vest much at all. The Datel still registers a solid 14 Volts @ 4100 RPM. I've also got my stock stater unit in inventory JIC!

Hope your problems sort out.

cheers,

 

[JamesK]

Well, boyz and girlz, I've made a little progress....

Hal, thanks for the update, could you pls let me know if the new Stator was covered by YES or did you have to spring for it yourself?

Also, did your voltage range change from more towards the normal range when the bike was cold vs. as it warmed up?

 

[Fred W]

That's a curious picture.

It has me wondering what is going on with the sprayed on insulation coating? Those little holes down to bare metal look like whatever gook that they sprayed on has either flaked or etched off in small spots. Now granted, insulating the core pieces isn't all that important, but if that same material is used in insulating the windings it might help explain the demise of that stator.

 

[ionbeam]

Those little holes down to bare metal look like whatever gook that they sprayed on has either flaked or etched off in small spots.

Or blistered from heat.

Every failed stator, be it OEM or aftermarket appears to have failed at the same two stator lobes. After going back and looking at all the dead stator pixs there is a real heat pattern showing. All the stators have failed at the same lobes, and 180° opposite always has the least heat discolored lobes. Top = dry and at the top of the oven, bottom = oil cooling and floor of the oven. As much as failure has to do with materials and methods, it apparently has to do with housing design and heat management too.

It's a real bummer that OEM stators are failing in the Gen IIs.

 

[kaitsdad]

Well, boyz and girlz, I've made a little progress....

Hal, thanks for the update, could you pls let me know if the new Stator was covered by YES or did you have to spring for it yourself?

Also, did your voltage range change from more towards the normal range when the bike was cold vs. as it warmed up?

James, it was covered by YES. Gary McCoy handles that for ya.

The failure happens when hot.

 

[JamesK]

Well based on Hal's tests and the other excellent info published by Ionbeam and others it looks like my Stator is even more "fried" than Hal's. I get very similar symptoms and readings, except that the output from mine completely stops when I plug it back in and apply a load e.g. Solteks on - the Voltage drops to b/w 12.6-12.9 range on the Datel & DMM and stays there, independent of the RPM. Once the Solteks are switched off the output goes up to b/w 13.1 - 13.4 (i always plug the bike into a battery tender when in the garage so the battery is fully charged before the test).

I've contacted Gary McCoy and prey that he can get a replacement Stator and gasket out to me under YES before 9/15 as i'm scheduled to leave for EOM in the AM on 9/16. If not, i'll have to bring along my battery tender and plug the bike in every night since the bike at least does not actively discharge the battery (yet) with only the headlights on i should/hope to be able to wing it.

Hal, did you come across any difficulties/pitfalls that I should lookout for when you swapped out your Stator?

 

[Constant Mesh]

Looks like the cooling oil spray is being blocked where the three metal chunks extend out from the cover. The oil is sprayed from a small hole in the head of the bolt on the end of the crankshaft. Those three chunks of metal are likely blocking the oil spray from the spinning bolt.

The top position is most oil starved while the lower two spots get a bit of oil runoff from above.

Maybe they should drill a few holes in those three chunks so a little cooling oil can get through from the crankshaft bolt.

On page 2-33 (Lubrication System Diagrams) or thereabouts of the Service Manual you can see where the oil sprays out from the bolt. The oil sprays onto the outside portion of the windings except for the three areas blocked by the chunks.

 

[kaitsdad]

Well based on Hal's tests and the other excellent info published by Ionbeam and others it looks like my Stator is even more "fried" than Hal's. I get very similar symptoms and readings, except that the output from mine completely stops when I plug it back in and apply a load e.g. Solteks on - the Voltage drops to b/w 12.6-12.9 range on the Datel & DMM and stays there, independent of the RPM. Once the Solteks are switched off the output goes up to b/w 13.1 - 13.4 (i always plug the bike into a battery tender when in the garage so the battery is fully charged before the test).I've contacted Gary McCoy and prey that he can get a replacement Stator and gasket out to me under YES before 9/15 as i'm scheduled to leave for EOM in the AM on 9/16. If not, i'll have to bring along my battery tender and plug the bike in every night since the bike at least does not actively discharge the battery (yet) with only the headlights on i should/hope to be able to wing it.

Hal, did you come across any difficulties/pitfalls that I should lookout for when you swapped out your Stator?

Your readings vary from my experience, so I think you need to ensure that it's the stator - you MUST measure the output from the stator "out" plug at the regulator/rectifier as described in Ionbeams' posts. Until you have verified that you have incorrect AC voltages out of the stator, you risk changing out the stator and still having the problem. It may be the regulator/recitifier.

You must have a new gasket - so the first thing you check for when the package arrives is that gasket.

You will need a manual impact driver to remove the three M6 x 1.0 x 33 torx head screws that hold in the stator. You will need to beat on that impact driver several times in order to get the screw to move several turns to break free of the loc-tite that the factory installed. Rest the cover on a folded up bath towel on your work bench to cushion it. Make sure you clean the threads of those bolts with a wire brush, and use loc-tite to re-install them.

The M6 x 1.0 x 10 phillips head screw holding in the bracket inside of the cover (you'll know what I mean when you remove it) will undoubtedly be stripped out when you remove it. I had to dremel in a slot in order to use my impact driver. Have on hand another screw of the same size, preferrably a socket head, and again, use loc-tite to install it. I had a stainless socket head bolt that was a 20mm length - Dremel off the extra 10mm.

Pay attention to the 4 cable dressing brackets on the outside of the case - remember where they go.

Oh yeah- drain the oil first. And DON'T forget to refill it.

And take your time. The cable from the stator to the rectifier is a bitch to remove and replace. Do Not Force It.

 

[JamesK]

....Your readings vary from my experience, so I think you need to ensure that it's the stator - you MUST measure the output from the stator "out" plug at the regulator/rectifier as described in Ionbeams' posts. Until you have verified that you have incorrect AC voltages out of the stator, you risk changing out the stator and still having the problem. It may be the regulator/rectifier.

Sorry for the confusion, when i said that my readings were similar to yours, i was referring to the AC output measured across the 3 white wires in the plug coming out of the Stator. To be exact the AC readings i was getting on my old Fluke77 DMM were around 29.xx VAC at the 1,100 rpm idle and peaking out at around 43.xx VAC at 3-4K RPM - when the engine was warm/hot.

I saw readings ranging from 70.xx - 90.xx VAC at 3-4K RPM on a cold engine/stator.

I just thought it might be of benefit to future readers diagnosing this problem to mention the "under load" behavior observed in my case, also from my previous electronics studies it is not uncommon for "zombie" components to behave normally without a real load and only really show failure under sufficient load...

Thank you for all the tips Hal, these should come in very handy, oh and now i understand why you said in your earlier post that you were "waiting for the gasket to arrive".

Based on the effort required to undo these bolts, is it safe to assume that the factory used Red loctite, hence Red loctite should be used during the re-installation or is Blue loctite strong enough for this task?.

I did notice that the screw that i think you're referring to has a new part # on the micro fiche maybe its to address the problem you've found?

 

[omnislash]

Mine gave probs at about 125,000 km. Battery died even after replacement. Trouble shoot and found out 1 or 2 windings not giving o/p.

I'll be interested to know what u remove to get the coil plug between the chasis frame and engine. I couldn't and so had to leave the old plug there, cut the new one away and splice them together.

Mine is 02 Gen btw. Doubt you need it but I'll just post it anyway.

https://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=92629&id=661018956

ops, didn't know you already had i replaced.

 

[kaitsdad]

....Your readings vary from my experience, so I think you need to ensure that it's the stator - you MUST measure the output from the stator "out" plug at the regulator/rectifier as described in Ionbeams' posts. Until you have verified that you have incorrect AC voltages out of the stator, you risk changing out the stator and still having the problem. It may be the regulator/rectifier.

Sorry for the confusion, when i said that my readings were similar to yours, i was referring to the AC output measured across the 3 white wires in the plug coming out of the Stator. To be exact the AC readings i was getting on my old Fluke77 DMM were around 29.xx VAC at the 1,100 rpm idle and peaking out at around 43.xx VAC at 3-4K RPM - when the engine was warm/hot.

I saw readings ranging from 70.xx - 90.xx VAC at 3-4K RPM on a cold engine/stator.

I just thought it might be of benefit to future readers diagnosing this problem to mention the "under load" behavior observed in my case, also from my previous electronics studies it is not uncommon for "zombie" components to behave normally without a real load and only really show failure under sufficient load...

Thank you for all the tips Hal, these should come in very handy, oh and now i understand why you said in your earlier post that you were "waiting for the gasket to arrive".

Based on the effort required to undo these bolts, is it safe to assume that the factory used Red loctite, hence Red loctite should be used during the re-installation or is Blue loctite strong enough for this task?.

I did notice that the screw that i think you're referring to has a new part # on the micro fiche maybe its to address the problem you've found?

OK, you're seeing the same exact failure readings that I had. I used blue loctite as I want to be able to have a reasonable chance of removing those bolts again. I tried finding replacement bolts on the open market, but a M6 x 1.0 x 33 T30 JIS bolt just ain't readily available. The shop manual doesn't say to replace them, so I went ahead and reused them. The torque on these bolts is only 7.2 ft lbs, so they're not under any real stress.

 

[omnislash]

....Your readings vary from my experience, so I think you need to ensure that it's the stator - you MUST measure the output from the stator "out" plug at the regulator/rectifier as described in Ionbeams' posts. Until you have verified that you have incorrect AC voltages out of the stator, you risk changing out the stator and still having the problem. It may be the regulator/rectifier.

Sorry for the confusion, when i said that my readings were similar to yours, i was referring to the AC output measured across the 3 white wires in the plug coming out of the Stator. To be exact the AC readings i was getting on my old Fluke77 DMM were around 29.xx VAC at the 1,100 rpm idle and peaking out at around 43.xx VAC at 3-4K RPM - when the engine was warm/hot.

I saw readings ranging from 70.xx - 90.xx VAC at 3-4K RPM on a cold engine/stator.

I just thought it might be of benefit to future readers diagnosing this problem to mention the "under load" behavior observed in my case, also from my previous electronics studies it is not uncommon for "zombie" components to behave normally without a real load and only really show failure under sufficient load...

Thank you for all the tips Hal, these should come in very handy, oh and now i understand why you said in your earlier post that you were "waiting for the gasket to arrive".

Based on the effort required to undo these bolts, is it safe to assume that the factory used Red loctite, hence Red loctite should be used during the re-installation or is Blue loctite strong enough for this task?.

I did notice that the screw that i think you're referring to has a new part # on the micro fiche maybe its to address the problem you've found?

OK, you're seeing the same exact failure readings that I had. I used blue loctite as I want to be able to have a reasonable chance of removing those bolts again. I tried finding replacement bolts on the open market, but a M6 x 1.0 x 33 T30 JIS bolt just ain't readily available. The shop manual doesn't say to replace them, so I went ahead and reused them. The torque on these bolts is only 7.2 ft lbs, so they're not under any real stress.

My dealer has plenty. I used back the old ones cuz i was real careful while removing them. I bot 3 as spare anyway.

 

[kaitsdad]

My dealer has plenty. I used back the old ones cuz i was real careful while removing them. I bot 3 as spare anyway.

Just fer grins, whattdya pay for them?

 

[omnislash]

My dealer has plenty. I used back the old ones cuz i was real careful while removing them. I bot 3 as spare anyway.

Just fer grins, whattdya pay for them?

I would love to answer that question but their too cheap to remember. But definitely less than $10 SGD for the 3.

 

[kaitsdad]

Update -

Well, I got it put back together today -

Started her up ......

And dead on stable voltages. It was most certainly the stator.

So - to those of you with 'dancing' voltage read outs - you might want to really watch it - and make sure your towing service is up to date.

 

[dcarver]

Update -
Well, I got it put back together today -

Started her up ......

And dead on stable voltages. It was most certainly the stator.

So - to those of you with 'dancing' voltage read outs - you might want to really watch it - and make sure your towing service is up to date.

Good job Hal! Now, the next step, to rewind the old stator?

 

[kaitsdad]

Update -
Well, I got it put back together today -

Started her up ......

And dead on stable voltages. It was most certainly the stator.

So - to those of you with 'dancing' voltage read outs - you might want to really watch it - and make sure your towing service is up to date.

Good job Hal! Now, the next step, to rewind the old stator?

Ya know, it would be kinda fun to play with an old stator - but it went back to MammyYammy.

Don, don't you have a "dancing Nancy" stator? And there's also Silent - Ray, what's your's like?

 

[dcarver]

Update -
Well, I got it put back together today -

Started her up ......

And dead on stable voltages. It was most certainly the stator.

So - to those of you with 'dancing' voltage read outs - you might want to really watch it - and make sure your towing service is up to date.

Good job Hal! Now, the next step, to rewind the old stator?

Ya know, it would be kinda fun to play with an old stator - but it went back to MammyYammy.

Don, don't you have a "dancing Nancy" stator? And there's also Silent - Ray, what's your's like?

Mine fluctuates a bit on the FJR, is rock stable on Wabs, using the same X50 set to volts dc, with like wiring. When CrZy8 is back from repairs, I'll measure at the battery using a good dvm then post back.