Your opinion m/c crash and insurance

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In order to do the right thing, should Mr Church?


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If Jeff is making payments on the KTM 990 SM -- he has collision coverage...right?

Re the deductible: I was involved in an intersection altercation a long time ago (non-m/c) and the other guy was pretty shady about Ins., etc.

Long story short: I got nowhere and, eventually, my Ins. paid all but the deductible. They said I'd get that, too, when they recovered it. Time passed and I didn't -- a letter from an attorney was all it took to get the money.

Good luck.
The bike is a 950sm not a 990. Yes it had full coverage. But as I stated, some repair shortcuts have to be made to keep the company from totaling it. Just made the 1st payment the other day...only 47 to go and she's all mine! :^)
Did you consider having the insurance company totaling it, then buying it back from them and then fixing it? It would have a salvage title, but you could make some money on the deal. Especially if you do most/all the work yourself.

Secondly, I change my vote; The appropriate moral thing to do is for him to pay your deductible. Since you elected to settle for a partial repair, anything more required was your decision and not his responsibility. The financial compesation is never more than the price paid for the machine . . so if the insurance would have totalled ther machine and returned what you paid for it (less the deductible) then that is the limit of their liability. One might also be able to arue that he owes nothing, since the amount of the deductible was your decision and you did not verify that he would be willing to pay or was covered for same before you allowed him to climb on board your machine, turn the ignition on and ride awa with it. in other words, you accepted the responsability based on the possibility that this might happen by not coming to an agreement before he rode off.

So from my perspective, his moral obligation would be to pay a reasonable deductible (if you had a $5K deductibe, for example I'd tell you to piss off had I been in that situation). And, you might NOT prevail in small claims court since HIS expectation was that you had sufficient insurance coverage and never discussed the possible consequences beforehand as to what might transpire in the eventuality of a crash.

Third; You are in Cali? Be VERY happy that HE isn't suing YOU for lending him the bike in the first place - this could have cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Was it a new bike ?

If yes, why not total it, add the amount needed to replace it, and get a brand new never been wrecked bike ?

Then go after the guy at fault for your out of pocket money. If he doesn't pay you, then take him to court.

 
Just curius, who was the one guy that voted pay nothing?
Steve,

that would be bramfrank....
Indeed, it was me;

I suppose that means 'bullet' didn't read the justification/explanation . . . .

And pardon me for the atrocious spelling - in the old days I'd go in and correct the post, but unfortunately I am not allowed to edit my posts and I all-too-often don't 'see' the errors until after I hit 'send'.

 
I was thinking the same thing. The person who you lent the bike to could sue you for letting him ride a bike that he was not qualified to ride. He will say (not me saying this, I'm just playing devels advocate) You are the one who put him in harms way as YOU didn't use good judgement by not checking his qualifications before lending him your bike.

You have insurance. He should pay the ded. Then you submit the rest to your insurance co. That is what you buy your insurance for.

If he had ins. on his bike, check with them and see if they will pay your ded. or any bills your company will not pay.

Remember, if you didn't have any insurance, his company would have paid for your bike. So it isn't as if he didn't have you covered. And in that case, his company would have applied a ded. too. Would he be more responsible for the ded. then? Since his company would be paying? I'm just asking.

Seems if he pays your ded. and any uncovered expenes you had that would be fair.

Send him a letter asking for the Ded and any uncovered expenses you had. If he does not respond in 30 days or says no, GET AN ATTORNEY. That will take care of it! (have the attorney go after his insurance for your ded. and all other expenses. CK

(tried to attach this to Bramfranks comments.) that is where this post should be.

 
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Hopefully the cops were heartless and wrote him a bunch of tickets for improper operation of your MC. Hope he pays up!

 
This whole thing is getting out of hand. This is why we have insurance. If they both had insurance and they exchanged info then I don't see the problem. The insurance companies will take care of it, and if they don't , that's why there is court.

The inconvenience of both parties will be a lesson learned, because they are both at fault. I think both have to man up, and move on.

My .02 cents

 
I was thinking the same thing. The person who you lent the bike to could sue you for letting him ride a bike that he was not qualified to ride. He will say (not me saying this, I'm just playing devels advocate) You are the one who put him in harms way as YOU didn't use good judgement by not checking his qualifications before lending him your bike.
That's complete ******** in my not so humble opinion. The guy just finished a motorcycle trip on a rented bike.

 
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I was thinking the same thing. The person who you lent the bike to could sue you for letting him ride a bike that he was not qualified to ride. He will say (not me saying this, I'm just playing devels advocate) You are the one who put him in harms way as YOU didn't use good judgement by not checking his qualifications before lending him your bike.
That's complete ******** in my not so humble opinion. The guy just finished a motorcycle trip on a rented bike.
Please don't attack the messeger. AND I agree with you it is "Complete ********" HOWEVER, This is exectly what a Lawyer would say. AND there are 1000's of Lawyers in Calif. that would just love to get a case like this.

Remember, 99.999% of the lawyers in Calif. are ambulance chasers. The other .0001% are divorce lawyers!

The ins. co. would settle rather than go to court even though there is little of no case.

I'm just saying it could be done.

Best way to handle it is let the ins. companies take care of it.

 
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Please don't attack the messeger. AND I agree with you it is "Complete ********" HOWEVER, This is exectly what a Lawyer would say. AND there are 1000's of Lawyers in Calif. that would just love to get a case like this.

Remember, 99.999% of the lawyers in Calif. are ambulance chasers. The other .0001% are divorce lawyers!

The ins. co. would settle rather than go to court even though there is little of no case.

I'm just saying it could be done.
Well, you are the one who wrote it, so you get it bud! You are being a bit more than a 'messenger', you're expressing an opinion. That leaves that 'opinion' open to debate. ;)

And I am no lawyer, but heartily disagree that this would be an easy case to blame the party who lent the bike. Not to say some slimeball attorney might try to take it in a longshot, but I would hardly classify the situation as 'you are lucky if you are not sued'.

 
I was thinking the same thing. The person who you lent the bike to could sue you for letting him ride a bike that he was not qualified to ride. He will say (not me saying this, I'm just playing devels advocate) You are the one who put him in harms way as YOU didn't use good judgement by not checking his qualifications before lending him your bike.
That's complete ******** in my not so humble opinion. The guy just finished a motorcycle trip on a rented bike.
+1, Gunny; TOTAL ********, long story short is that Brian Church ****** up another man's motorcyle and is not standing behind his actions like a real man would!!!

 
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The insurance situation is that when you loan or give permission to another person to drive any vehicle you own, you assume "vicarious liability" for their actions, any damage to your vehicle, any damage to other vehicles or property and any medical liabilities that result from their actions. Unlike a rental company, you have presumably not assigned liability to them by contract. In California if you loan a car, your insurance is liable for everything that happens. In this case there was fortunately a comprehensive insurance policy in effect and the bike will be repaired or totaled in accordance with that.

The sense of justice that a person is liable and should pay for their actions is the "common law" justice you might expect, but when it comes to paying for damages, the insurance carriers and legislators have reapportioned liability by statute to ensure that damages do get paid...by the vehicle owner who is required to have at least the State minimum liability insurance policy. That does not prevent a private action being taken to recover damages, including any deductible.

I am not a lawyer and did not sleep at the Holiday Inn Express, but I did experience something similar when a room mate borrowed my daughter's car and totaled it into a brick wall. Our insurance paid off the car, the property damages and the medical expenses of the 100% at fault room mate. In my opinion, Jeff's insurance company will bear the majority of the cost for this, and they will not attempt to subrogate against Brian. Jeff will not get an accident point, and it is unlikely his rates will go up. He may pursue Brian in small claims or just settle on the deductible and perhaps some additional losses, but additional loss is going to be hard to prove since he is declining the offer to total the motorcycle and his losses are based on the value of the damaged MC. FWIW, the right thing to do, is for Brian to at least offer to pay back the deductible.

 
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You'll have to check what the jurisdictional limit of the small claims court is now, but I'm pretty sure it was $10,000 last time I checked.
One very tiny point of addition. I work small claims court cases in LA County as part of my job and there "Small Claims Court handles Civil cases asking for $7,500.00 or less" with entities having a maximum of $5,000.

https://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/smallclaims/ui/whatis.aspx
Thanks for the correction, Doug. Just proves I'm getting senile to have substituted an amount I think is required for what it really is. And best of luck, fun and safety to you in the IBR!

The insurance situation is that when you loan or give permission to another person to drive any vehicle you own, you assume "vicarious liability" for their actions, any damage to your vehicle, any damage to other vehicles or property and any medical liabilities that result from their actions. Unlike a rental company, you have presumably not assigned liability to them by contract. In California if you loan a car, your insurance is liable for everything that happens.
Not exactly, Tom. The first distinction to keep in mind is that between liability coverage (aka PL & PD) in which your insurance pays a third party for injuries or property damage, and the pure indemnification in which your insurance pays for damages sustained to your vehicle (collision coverage is at issue in this case). The second distinction is that (as you've stated) personal liability (i.e., for your own negligence) and the insurer's contractual liability to pay per its contract are not always congruent. Typically, at least in the case of liability coverage and assuming it is of a nature that is within other policy requirements, personal liability triggers the insurer's duty to indemnify.

Unless this has changed since I was doing this regularly, the statutory vicarious personal liability of the registered owner is fixed at the dollar amount set as the minimum required auto liability limits (still 15K/30K??), whether or not you have actually insured your car. (BTW, this is the main reason to make sure you notify the DMV upon selling a car, since it still attaches if you're their registered owner until such notice is given.) You can also have vicarious personal liability if you negligently entrusted your vehicle to someone -- usually where you knew or should have known that the person was not capable of safely operating it (e.g., has no MC endorsement or no license, is intoxicated, is known to have had many instances of negligent operation, etc.) There's more circumstances, but none are apparently applicable here.

The only applicable collision coverage is Jeff's, in which the issue of whether Brian is an insured (under the omnibus clause??) on Jeff's policy is irrelevant. We seem to be venturing into that next issue -- whether Brian is "an insured" for liability purposes to Jeff on Jeff's policy and/or on his own policy, and which policy is primary and which is secondary.

Without researching it, I think I know the answer, but it relies upon my recollection of a couple typical policy clauses, so what I should say is that I have conflicting recollections relevant to what would be the result in these circumstances. After reconsidering a shoot from the hip answer, I decided to delete several paragraphs . . . having decided that almost no one would read it anyway. Tom, you're really into a complex subject, and it's just too nice outside today, so I'm getting off this keyboard before it's gone. Sorry about that brick wall situation. As you know, much of this crap ends up the subject of extended negotiations, largely about the cost of litigation as a counterbalance to what can be gained IF you win, and IF you can collect. So it's not always a reliable indicator of what the statutory and case law says or what the result might be if the cost of litigation wasn't the biggest elephant in the room.

I just hope Brian steps up and does the right thing.

 
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Please don't attack the messeger. AND I agree with you it is "Complete ********" HOWEVER, This is exectly what a Lawyer would say. AND there are 1000's of Lawyers in Calif. that would just love to get a case like this.

Remember, 99.999% of the lawyers in Calif. are ambulance chasers. The other .0001% are divorce lawyers!

The ins. co. would settle rather than go to court even though there is little of no case.

I'm just saying it could be done.
Well, you are the one who wrote it, so you get it bud! You are being a bit more than a 'messenger', you're expressing an opinion. That leaves that 'opinion' open to debate. ;)

And I am no lawyer, but heartily disagree that this would be an easy case to blame the party who lent the bike. Not to say some slimeball attorney might try to take it in a longshot, but I would hardly classify the situation as 'you are lucky if you are not sued'.



"but heartily disagree that this would be an easy case to blame the party who lent the bike."??

All anyone has to do is file and they have blamed the other party. It's pretty darn easy to file a law suit.

I think you ment to say it would not be an easy case to win or prove that the lender was to blame. But if I said that it would be putting words in your mouth and you would then have to (how did you say it?) "Your expressing an opinion" --- "So you get it bud" :derisive:

So I won't say it.

My wife was a Law Professor for 30+ years. She assures me that it would be VERY easy to find many lawyers in Calif to file a case like this. (winning would be a different question.) BUT, it's not about winning, it's about getting a settlement from an ins. company so they don't have to spend 50K in count defending the case. Works sometimes, sometimes not.

All I said was the person who lent the bike "could" be sued. I didn't say he "would" be sued.

Sorry for any missunderstanding.

I wonder if, and how fast, either party would countersue if one party sues the other. (either one).

 
I wonder if, and how fast, either party would countersue if one party sues the other. (either one).
I don't believe you've thought through the economics of that reaction, as compared to cases in which that does happen, . . .

EDIT:

I've reconsidered the wisdom of posting (and have deleted) the several paragraphs qualifying my disagreement with your blanket proposition (quoted) as necessarily applicable on the few facts we know. What you suggest happens in some cases, and there are bottom feeders for THOSE cases in which nuisance value is what's in play.

 

But I think it's better that I butt out and let the parties try to work this out without complicating this further by flogging all the potential issues relating to litigation, insurance, etc. Along with others, I've stated what I think should happen between Brian and Jeff, and I imagine that we can all agree that it would be much better if they can reach a resolution without involving courts and lawsuits.

 
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I wonder if, and how fast, either party would countersue if one party sues the other. (either one).
I don't believe you've thought through the economics of that reaction, as compared to cases in which that does happen, . . .

EDIT:

I've reconsidered the wisdom of posting (and have deleted) the several paragraphs qualifying my disagreement with your blanket proposition (quoted) as necessarily applicable on the few facts we know. What you suggest happens in some cases, and there are bottom feeders for THOSE cases in which nuisance value is what's in play.

 

But I think it's better that I butt out and let the parties try to work this out without complicating this further by flogging all the potential issues relating to litigation, insurance, etc. Along with others, I've stated what I think should happen between Brian and Jeff, and I imagine that we can all agree that it would be much better if they can reach a resolution without involving courts and lawsuits.
I just ment:

Just as in physics, in the world of humans, a given action usually causes a reaction.

I agree with your above statement. I hope all will turn out well with all and a fair agreement will be reached by all concerned in a pleasent atmosphere.

 
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I am just going to make one post on this topic.

  1. I am a QVC EMPLOYEE, but I am far from being a QVC exec. Involving my employer in this is totally unnecessary. Anything that has happened between Jeff and I is in no way related to QVC. Please do not let this impact how you deal with QVC.
     
  2. The last I spoke to Jeff was around May 6 when I returned his phone call. At that point he did not have an estimate from the insurance company and still thought he had $1000 deductible.
     
  3. I have not received any phone calls or emails from Jeff since that time. Jeff just needs to call.
     



I have requested that the admins close this thread and my other thread so that we can settle our issue in private. I would appreciate you cooperation by not posting any further items to this thread. If you have comments of value to Jeff please PM them to him personally.

Jeff told me and my riding buddy a story about how he used a posting on a forum to embarrass a guy when trying to resolve an issue with a client that was not settling up after many contacts. In this case he has opted to post out here with my name and my employer's name instead of picking up the phone and calling me.

Thanks,

Brian Church

 
The reason this thread is close is not due to the request of Brian Church; it is because there is already an established thread with all the details.

We will stick to that thread, and it will remain open.

 
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