Problems with Pilot Road 2's?

I didn't want to trash the Tire Group Buy Interest thread, even though (forum admin) Warchild already did!!

So I figured we should probably start a separate discussion on the weak points that some folks are reporting (or have reported) on the Michelin Pilot Road 2 tires. I have no first hand experience with these tires, but would consider them for their high mileage if not for these recent reports, along with some old questions that have remained unanswered.

Quoting from the above referenced thread:

Warchild said:

My PR2's on my FJR have a good 2000-3000 miles on them, but I can not wait to dump them now that they are well into their "bad period". I am going back to Avon Storms, personally.

Click to expand...

topanga said:

I've had 2 sets of PR2s, in my experience the front tire goes long before the back. I've managed 6k out of the front at best. The rear lasts till about 8k for me. I can't speak for anyone else's experience, and I am certainly not a tire expert, but for me the bad period happens when the sides (I guess this is the dual compound?) gets to a point where it suddenly grinds off really quickly. Then the bike is just all over the road obviously in a really bad way.

Click to expand...

Warchild said:

Exactly so. Approaching 5900 miles on my PR2's, and I can not wait to dump them even with a good couple thousand miles of treadlife remaining. It's a struggling to maintain a decent line in fast sweepers; in the tight twisties, the bike is a complete mess - handling is all over the place. Bah.... :glare: these tires are outta here....

Click to expand...

These recent reports have me a bit concerned that the multi-compound fronts are the problem.

But also, earlier in the year there was some speculation on the other FJR site that Michelin had released some rear tires that may have been manufactured with the compounds reversed. Durometer tests on at least one tire showed that, contrary to their marketing descriptions, the center of the tire actually measured softer than the sides. I am not sure where that investigation ever went, but it was one reason that I continued buying Roadsmart rear tires.

Could these be related issues? Thoughts?

Fred,

Thanks for starting this thread. The thought of a separate thread didn't occur to me as I was contributing to the hijack in the other thread.

I'm on my second rear PR2 and my first on the front. I put a new set on before leaving for CFR so I didn't get a chance to get into the 'bad period' on my first rear PR2. This set has about 5,000 miles on them. I was disappointed by the amount of center wear after 3000 miles on the Great Plains.

I don't think of myself as an aggressive rider. Last week-end I was riding with a bunch of twenty-something sport bike riders. There were five of us and we were on some twisty roads in Wisconsin. When I was riding at a more spirited pace, the bike was handling great and I kept up and even moved up in the order to third. I started thinking "you better cool it". I fell back to sweep and immediately noticed the bike wasn't handling right. Something felt loose in back. The feeling was like making a right or left turn over crosswalk paint. The only difference was this was happening on smooth dry roads. There was no anticipating it like "here comes the paint". The rear would just shift slightly.

I spent the rest of the afternoon trying to diagnose it, but never came up with anything.

I'm still not ready to blame the tires. The excessive center wear could have been over loading. The squirrelly rear end could have been lack of sleep and dead and dying brain cells. Still, it will be interesting to follow this.

Until recently I had heard the PR2's were the shiznit, and all others have issues. Is their a decent tire made for the FJR? I had the BT21's that came with the bike go to hell after 3k miles, dealer put another front on, and it was gone in another 3k. The dealer then put Roadsmarts on for free, but from what I've been seeing those will be shot pretty soon too.

I'll probably need new tires before the end of the year, and am more confused than ever on what to buy.

I tried a set of PR2s but the side walls were too soft/ spongy while 2 up at high speed in the twisties. They would wobble a little. Mileage was only 6K. I prefer the Metzler RoadTec , rock solid when fully loaded and average milage is around 12K. I can't speak for other tires, I've only run the 2 brands so far. Ordering another set of Metzlers next week.

I had a PR2 rear that I changed at 8500 miles because of a cut, but it never felt funny. ( could have went maybe 3000 more miles without the cut )

Now I have a matching pair of PR2's but am still in the honeymoon stage. I'll be interested to follow this thread and hopefully give some input after a few more thousand miles.

So Fred, is the jury still out on whether Michelin made a mistake? I would suspect if compounds got swapped a HUGE liability would be at hand and Michelin would want to right it, Vs a massive lawsuit.

Just curious, has anyone else experienced handling or grip issues with the PR2's?

I feared this same thing from your post of the compounds last year, when I bought my PR2 tires about the same time as your posting on the Cycle City group buy.

Mine seem fine so far with only a couple K on them.

I have 10k+ on my PR2's. While I am not an expert by any means, I have found these to be great tires. I now have what I would describe as a "flat spot" on them. I attribute it to the daily commute to work in heat exceeding 100 degrees for the last 2 months and crappy road surfaces. I went on a 3k trip with 6-7k already on the tires when I left and they did great. I had several high speed runs, a run of nice sweepers at 75-85, lots of rain, and some really ****** roads. I was fully loaded and never felt that I had a tire related issue the entire trip. I am running them out before I replace them for SW-FOG. After my trip (when they were close to the 10K mark), I know that until I get 'em warmed up for a few miles, they will be a little iffy.

Now, that being said, I only have experience with the BT21's and the PR2's.

I lean to the longevity over the performance for financial reasons.

Greg

I'm on my 2nd, 3rd? set of the mighty 2's, no problems. They wear great and even, center to side. Even at tire life end, they tip in better than a similarly worn Avon Storm. Sorry Warchild. I have yet another set of 2's ready for install when these wear out.

For the best tire ever, it has to be the Storm. Too bad they don't have quality control though - I've had several that were out of round, one by slightly less than 1/8".

I think the PR2 issue may deal around what type of riding you do. I get a solid 60/40 mix of center tire wear and twisities, and the profile looks great with those ratios. For those that ride slab all the time, or vast majority of the time, me thinks the profile may not be as nice and lead to some of the complaints here.

All speculation of course.

Fred W said:

I didn't want to trash the Tire Group Buy Interest thread, even though (forum admin) Warchild already did!!

Click to expand...

C'mon, Fred, where's that normally excellent reading comprehension gone? I didn't trash a Group Buy thread, and never will, because as I have previously mentioned, there is no other forum member who knows what a complete ***-pain these are to organize than myself.

In this case... it's not a Group Buy thread. Mdisher is just gauging interest in setting one up (which there obviously is). That's why that thread is not located in the Group Buy forum.... cuz it's not a Group Buy thread.

Now, as to all the tire angst.... folks, this is one of several reasons the NERPT forum exists. Tires are probably more subjective among riders then any other bike component. Why are there such widely disparate reports among riders for any given tire?

Because no two riders will ever have the same, identical experience on the same tire. The reasons are obvious.

In order for two riders to have the same tire experience, they would have to be riding identical bikes, with identical suspension settings, identical riding conditions, carry the identical weight on the bike that is distributed identically, identical tire pressures, ride over identical road surfaces, and have the same, identical riding style and identical braking technique.

So, in other words.... it's not going to happen.

Thus, we see dissimilar reports from riders regarding the same tire. Hence, NERPT.

Now, all this doesn't mean we should all discount these tire threads, because what one *can* gleam from these threads is a sense of general trending. Example: it is *generally* acknowledge that the splendid Avon Storm does not appear to have as long a treadlife as the tire it replaced, the Avon Azaro. Another example: it is *generally* acknowledged that the treadlife of the PR2 is noticeably longer than the PR.

For generalize trending purposes over time, these NERPTy tire threads are not totally useless. But to determine "the best tire for the FJR" from reading these threads, well, that is simply never going to happen. The best tire for the FJR1300 is that tire that performs best under your hand, your riding environment, your riding style, etc, etc, etc.

As I mentioned in the other thread, the PR2 was terrific the first 4000-ish miles, but have been a nightmare for me since then. Key words here are "for me". If I was the only one with this PR2 issue, those looking to buy tires should probably discount my input as being a spurious "one-off" experience. If perspective tire buyers start reading of multiple riders having roughly the same negative comments about a certain tire, that might be a different story and I dunno if I would be inclined to quickly dismiss them as well.

So does the perfect tire for the FJR exists? Probably not.... rather, it's the tire representing the best compromise between all your personal wants/needs. While I wish it had the treadlife of its predecessor, that tire for me (currently) is the Avon Storm. The wet/dry grip of this tire (for me) is phenomenal, and their pricing and availability are quite appealing.

FJRBluesman said:

So Fred, is the jury still out on whether Michelin made a mistake? I would suspect if compounds got swapped a HUGE liability would be at hand and Michelin would want to right it, Vs a massive lawsuit.

Click to expand...

Some thoughts on this. Michelin would probably correct such a problem, but not so much from fear of lawsuit but from Michelin wanting to promote itself as a stand-up entity. Now, lawyers can make a company "look" stand-up (i.e., would they really do it if there were no liability concerns) but consider this.

In June of 2005, I was sitting in the stands at turn one (measured backwards...) with members of my family at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway (IMS) to watch one of the greatest sporting spectacles of the decade. We had paid over $2,500 each to travel from So Cal to sit at this event. It was race day and the stands were packed to capacity in turn 1 (best viewing...overtaking opportunities occur right in front of where we were sitting). On the recon lap, all the cars filed by and we waited for them to return to the grid for the standing start...one of the most exciting parts of an F1 race. But that's not what happened. All but 6 of the 20 cars peeled off the track into the pits and backed themselves into their respective garages. In F1, that's game over...race done. These were the Michelin teams. (The story here). The other 6 (all Bridgestone shod) came around to the grid and began the race as though nothing was out of the ordinary. We in the stands were completely in the dark about what had happened. It was surreal. My family filed out of our premium seats and left after only 6 laps of a scheduled 73 when it became clear the other teams were not going to race. On the drive back to the motel we discovered what happened via radio. Basically, Michelin had brought tires to the race that were not up to the loads and stresses that IMS required of F1 rubber. After Ralf Schumacher's hi energy shunt into the wall Saturday at the final corner was caused by tire failure, the company was unwilling to certify their tires for the race. They tried desperately to find a way to allow the Bridgestone teams to gather the points they deserved (these teams arrived at the circuit with HW that worked) while still allowing the fans to see a race but the FIA (F1 governing body) was unwilling to make any of the recommended changes. So the Michelin shod teams drove into the garages and the USGP was a farce (Schumi's first win of the year if memory serves).

There were losers all around. The fans (both on TV and especially those there in person), the IMS (this was one of the big reasons why F1 doesn't run at Indy today), the TV sponsors, F1, and of course Michelin!! After the fiasco made headline news, Michelin accepted their responsibility for what occurred and basically agreed to buy tickets to the 2006 USGP for any fan who could produce a stub for 2005. This was a big cost for Michelin. Note well that other stakeholders like Tony George and the IMS machine were completely unwilling to absorb any additional cost for the fiasco.

Now, image sells a lot of tires for a company like Michelin. They take this sort of thing very seriously. Performance and willingness to stand behind a product are important for companies in the high-end tire market. So is customer satisfaction. I am a Michelin fan today because they deliver value and they stand behind their products and take their customers seriously. Their products can be pricey, but I've always had a good experience with the company and their tires. I'm sure they considered their liability carefully as they decided how to proceed, but they also considered their image. In articles I read after the fact it became clear to me that image drove the decision heavily. F1 fans are by-and-large performance savvy and discerning tire consumers. Michelin understands this well.

So what, you ask. Well, if Michelin had manufactured these motorcycle tires incorrectly and the product had managed to get through QA and onto the street somehow (a BIG if BTW), there are many potential consequences that such a company would not want to entertain. Some might even be life threatening...who knows. They would want to fix this sort of problem for a number of reasons and not just hide behind their lawyers. Michelin already has a history of taking care of problems like this and I believe they would for something like this possible MC issue too, if it were real. One question my internal professional engineer invites me to consider is this: those who are doing the "durometer measurements" should ask if the measurements meet spec or are they just assuming they understand how these tires ought to be put together?

My two cents anyway.

Cheers,

W2

Michelin Fan

Interesting story W2. Thanks for sharing.

BTW - I miss F1 racing...

(Front PR2) I slipped on tar snakes while going through a sweeper yesterday. Quite disturbing to say the least.

A shower must have come through and left the roads slightly damp. Some areas wetter than others. It wasn't raining at the time. Never had that happen with my Bridgestones.

Is there a tire that doesn't slip on hot tar snakes in the heat of summer??

Love the PR2, hate Avons Quality control. JMHO

Just a reminder. There is no perfect bike, and no perfect tire. Don't be so anal, get a life and enjoy the ride.

I put PR2s on before SFO in April. When I went the rear had about 3K on it and the front 1K. I had the front break loose on tar strips while passing in the rain. It was a very brief slip before it hooked back up.On another day the rear came loose in a left sweeper just after a heavy rain. I actually left the pavement and was steering into the slide when the rear hooked back up on wet grass and I recovered and returned to the road. No harm no foul except for the mental shake up after such an experience. I cannot say with certainty that the tire was the reason it let loose. There was a lot of water on the road and could well have been debris or oil on the road that I did not see. Both events were rather unnerving at the time but I recovered pretty quickly.I have not had any problems with either tire wear or other traction problems since then.

I have not ridden in the rain since as we do not get too much in OK in the summer and if I know it is going to rain I do not go out in it deliberately just because of the comfort and crazy cagers. I now have 14K on the bike and that is about 6K on the rear and 4K on the front. They have lots of tread left if they do not get too squirrely as a put on more miles. I would expect 10K out of them at the rate they are presently wearing. I am not a real aggressive rider but do enjoy an occasional spirited ride when I can find a suitable road.

Fred W said:

I didn't want to trash the Tire Group Buy Interest thread, even though (forum admin) Warchild already did!!
So I figured we should probably start a separate discussion on the weak points that some folks are reporting (or have reported) on the Michelin Pilot Road 2 tires. I have no first hand experience with these tires, but would consider them for their high mileage if not for these recent reports, along with some old questions that have remained unanswered.

Quoting from the above referenced thread:

Warchild said:

My PR2's on my FJR have a good 2000-3000 miles on them, but I can not wait to dump them now that they are well into their "bad period". I am going back to Avon Storms, personally.

Click to expand...

topanga said:

I've had 2 sets of PR2s, in my experience the front tire goes long before the back. I've managed 6k out of the front at best. The rear lasts till about 8k for me. I can't speak for anyone else's experience, and I am certainly not a tire expert, but for me the bad period happens when the sides (I guess this is the dual compound?) gets to a point where it suddenly grinds off really quickly. Then the bike is just all over the road obviously in a really bad way.

Click to expand...

Warchild said:

Exactly so. Approaching 5900 miles on my PR2's, and I can not wait to dump them even with a good couple thousand miles of treadlife remaining. It's a struggling to maintain a decent line in fast sweepers; in the tight twisties, the bike is a complete mess - handling is all over the place. Bah.... :glare: these tires are outta here....

Click to expand...

These recent reports have me a bit concerned that the multi-compound fronts are the problem.

But also, earlier in the year there was some speculation on the other FJR site that Michelin had released some rear tires that may have been manufactured with the compounds reversed. Durometer tests on at least one tire showed that, contrary to their marketing descriptions, the center of the tire actually measured softer than the sides. I am not sure where that investigation ever went, but it was one reason that I continued buying Roadsmart rear tires.

Could these be related issues? Thoughts?

Click to expand...

I'm on my second set of PR2's and never have I felt "compromised" by the tires.I've done the dragon in the rain, Mt Palomar, Ortega highway among others. Always feel in control and planted. On recent trips to the East coast they wear fine and have handled various nasty rain "events" a few I should have never gotten into if I had a choice. They wear fine and my rear was worn out about 2K miles before the front at 17 K Miles. 9K came on the trip last year. My second set has a 7K mile trip on them and they are going to be close to the last set. I've run Avon Azaro's, BT20 Bridgesones and the original PR's. These by far are the best tires I've had in 91000 miles and at this point will be my tires of choice.

Ed

I am very happy with my PR2s so far. I have about 5k on them and they look great. A little flat spot in the middle but I do a lot of commuting. I will definitely buy them again.

Warchild said:

Fred W said:

I didn't want to trash the Tire Group Buy Interest thread, even though (forum admin) Warchild already did!!

Click to expand...

C'mon, Fred, where's that normally excellent reading comprehension gone? I didn't trash a Group Buy thread, and never will, because as I have previously mentioned, there is no other forum member who knows what a complete ***-pain these are to organize than myself.

Click to expand...

Not to worry, Dale. I was just joshin' ya. (hence the smilie)

I just thought it best to keep the "Possible PR2 Problems" discussion separated from the "PR2 Group Buy Interest Gauging" thread.

BTW - What ware you doing on here? Aren't you supposed to be riding around in Idaho or sumpthin'?

08FJR4ME said:

(Front PR2) I slipped on tar snakes while going through a sweeper yesterday. Quite disturbing to say the least.
A shower must have come through and left the roads slightly damp. Some areas wetter than others. It wasn't raining at the time. Never had that happen with my Bridgestones.

Click to expand...

Dave,

Side slipping on wet tar snakes (or really hot ones) is to be expected with any tire. That's why they are so universally despised by motorcyclists.

08FJR4ME said:

(Front PR2) I slipped on tar snakes while going through a sweeper yesterday. Quite disturbing to say the least.
A shower must have come through and left the roads slightly damp. Some areas wetter than others. It wasn't raining at the time. Never had that happen with my Bridgestones.

Click to expand...

And what tire doesn't slip on tar snakes???? :glare: