Thread spin off about possible change to Rotella Diesel Oil

ShinyPartsUp · Aug 14, 2009

In an effort not to hijack another thread, an aside in a post by el jefe Beemerdons is given some of it's own space for comment and research.

beemerdons said:
Note: Greg and I had an eye opening conversation with Kendall regarding Rotella Diesel Oil for our FJR's. Now that low-sulphur diesels are the norm, which is the case with my Volvo Diesel powered Jeep Liberty SUV, the Rotella in stores such as Wal-Mart no longer have the necessary additives for use in our FJR's. After talking to Kendall, Golden Spectro for Lucy L!

Any details on what additives have been reportedly dropped Don? Unless some convincing posts arise I guess I'll be using something motorcycle specific.

Where is Jestal when you need him?

Anyone else know some specifics about this?

SkooterG · Aug 14, 2009

You know, I found this very disturbing. I have been (and still am) using the Rotella T 15W-40 convetional motor oil for just about all of my FJR's life.

I was going to start a thread on this, but between work (Ugh!) and preparations for the IBR I am out of time.

This mechanic generally know's his ****. I don't always agree with him, as I think he has his biases, but I ALWAYS respect his opinion. I will say he is the only tech I trust to do things 100% correct.

I think he has worked in the oil industry back in the day, spending some time up in Alaska.

He was a Honda and Yamaha dealer in a small town, but now is just a Yamaha dealer. Just him and his wife running the place. He has been wrenching bikes for a lot of years. 20? 30? 40? Always fixed my stuff right, even better than other dealers, and frequently fixing their errors. This includes my old Harley, and my old Concours.

So we were on the phone the other day and after he broke the bad news about my final drive, he wanted to tell me about this 04 FJR in which the motor was gone at 70k. He is not sure exactly what the root cause was, but he didn't like 1) No valve checks ever done, 2) K&N air filter with LOTS of dirt in the airbox past the filter, and 3) Owner had used 'car' oil, and not motorcycle specific oil.

That last statement about car oil made me bring up the fact that I am using Rotella T, not a motorcycle specific oil, and though it can be used for cars, I said the reason I use it is for the robust additive package because it's a diesel oil. Specifically more Zinc, or ZDP, or anti-wear additives.

Then he dropped the bomb. He told me that it used to be a great choice, and my reasoning was sound except for one major problem: According to a source he knows in the industry, Rotella T and the other diesel oils have reduced the Zinc, ZDP, or anti-wear additives since the U.S. went to low sulphur diesel fuel.

****!!!

So I don't know what to do. I was going to call him and discuss it more when I returned from the IBR when I have some time. Also thought about contacting Shell (Rotella) and seeing if they could confirm or deny that info.

Still running Rotella T for now, but have some concerns.

DrFaulken · Aug 14, 2009

Hrm ... thanks for the head's up. I have some older Rotella T Synth and some recently purchased oil in my shed. I'll check out both bottles this weekend and see if there is a difference in the labeling.

[edit]

SkooterG, are you using the Rotella T synthetic in the blue bottle, or the Rotella T dino in the white bottle? I was under the assumption that the synthetic was the only oil okay for use in motorcycles.

ian · Aug 14, 2009

Wonder if Rotella has changed the synthetic as well? Just changed to it for my upcoming trip to the left coast, figured I could run 6-8,000 miles before changing-guess not. Ian, Iowa

Joe2Lmaker · Aug 14, 2009

Thanks.

I'm using Rotella T 15W-40 convetional.

So, what's next bact to Yamaha's brand?

DrFaulken said:
SkooterG, are you using synthetic, or dino?

convetional = dino

Geezer · Aug 14, 2009

Like ScoterG, I have been using Rotella T conventional oil because it has (had?) the extra zinc.

So, let's assume for the sake of argument that the zinc has been reduced. Does that make motorcycle specific oil a better choice? Do motorcycle oils have more zinc? Is there some other compelling reason to switch?

I think I'll watch this thread and see if we come up with any answers before I make a change.

bramfrank · Aug 14, 2009

Oh goodie. An oil thread!!

Everything I've read about motorcycle-specific oils, whether they be synthetic or conventional is that their additive packages were specifically formulated to deal with the specifics of the environment, which means more Zinc and such to protect cam followers and deal with the higher temps and stresses in the engine, while not being SO slippery that the wet clutch slips.

If you are a regular changer of oils, the conventional wisdom says that you don't *need* synthetics because they all start out with the same viscosities and such - but synthetics run longer before breaking down.

However oils become contaminated with acids, soots, metals and such, so even though filters remove mostof the bigger particulates I've always wondered whether synthetics do more harm in the end than good

Because if you're going to change your oil every 3,000 miles anyway, that's before the conventionals have (to use a term) worn out, but the contaminates concentrate for longer in the oil before being flushed out.

While this isn't exactly some remote outpost, up here in Canada there aren't all that many choices - you can get manufacturer private labelled oils (Yamalube, H-D, Hondalube and such). There are specialty premium brands like Blue Spectro, Motul, Amsoil. Castrol only offers two bike-specific oils - and they differ only by viscosity. The large retailers have their own labels - but I avoid anything branded by Canadian Tire (for example) like the plague and I'm convinced that the premium specialty providers don't actually *do* anything for their money.

So I've always used Castrol and in the past 35 years have never had to rebuild an engine.

However, for you synthetic types, I noticed a bike-specific fully synthetic formulation of Mobil-One on the shelf at a local WalMart (again in Canada) last week. I think paying $16 a quart for oil is sinful these days, especially since it doesn't actually have any oil in it and because, except for my road trip days I change oil every 3K.

lnewlf · Aug 14, 2009

https://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId...kourexpert.html

check out FAC-less zinc but still good for high load engines...?? still cheap enough to change frequently.

radman · Aug 14, 2009

It's because automotive and truck engines have gone away from flat tappet cams that they are able to reduce the high pressure additives without ill effect-for them. It's because of this reduction I have been adding 4 oz. of GM's E.O.S. to each load of M1 15w-50 when I change. It adds some cam/lifter insurance and makes the tranny happy also. At my recommended dosage, each bottle will last 4 oil changes.

11302d1142778341-gm-engine-oil-supplement-eos-question-eos.jpg

Toecutter · Aug 14, 2009

SkooterG said:
He told me that it used to be a great choice, and my reasoning was sound except for one major problem: According to a source he knows in the industry, Rotella T and the other diesel oils have reduced the Zinc, ZDP, or anti-wear additives since the U.S. went to low sulphur diesel fuel.

Luckily, GM EOS is again available, so what I thought might be overkill was probably just enough kill. I better go order some more....

beemerdons · Aug 14, 2009

SkooterG said:
You know, I found this very disturbing. I have been (and still am) using the Rotella T 15W-40 convetional motor oil for just about all of my FJR's life.
I was going to start a thread on this, but between work (Ugh!) and preparations for the IBR I am out of time.

This mechanic generally know's his ****. I don't always agree with him, as I think he has his biases, but I ALWAYS respect his opinion. I will say he is the only tech I trust to do things 100% correct.

I think he has worked in the oil industry back in the day, spending some time up in Alaska.

He was a Honda and Yamaha dealer in a small town, but now is just a Yamaha dealer. Just him and his wife running the place. He has been wrenching bikes for a lot of years. 20? 30? 40? Always fixed my stuff right, even better than other dealers, and frequently fixing their errors. This includes my old Harley, and my old Concours.

So we were on the phone the other day and after he broke the bad news about my final drive, he wanted to tell me about this 04 FJR in which the motor was gone at 70k. He is not sure exactly what the root cause was, but he didn't like 1) No valve checks ever done, 2) K&N air filter with LOTS of dirt in the airbox past the filter, and 3) Owner had used 'car' oil, and not motorcycle specific oil.

That last statement about car oil made me bring up the fact that I am using Rotella T, not a motorcycle specific oil, and though it can be used for cars, I said the reason I use it is for the robust additive package because it's a diesel oil. Specifically more Zinc, or ZDP, or anti-wear additives.

Then he dropped the bomb. He told me that it used to be a great choice, and my reasoning was sound except for one major problem: According to a source he knows in the industry, Rotella T and the other diesel oils have reduced the Zinc, ZDP, or anti-wear additives since the U.S. went to low sulphur diesel fuel.

****!!!

So I don't know what to do. I was going to call him and discuss it more when I returned from the IBR when I have some time. Also thought about contacting Shell (Rotella) and seeing if they could confirm or deny that info.

Still running Rotella T for now, but have some concerns.

Found additional backup from another source: Matt Parkhouse writes monthly "keep'emflying" column for BMW Owners News

He sent various oils to Bently Tribology for testing and Rotella T no longer makes the grade in regards to required ZZDP.

If anyone would like this article mailed to them, post me at [email protected] or call me at 480-917-3863 and I'll mail it.

He now recommends the following oils for use in BMW's and advises against further use of Rotella T 15w-40 conventional oil.

Valvoline 10w40 4-Stroke M/C Oil; $4.50/Qt; zinc level 943 ppm; phosphorus level 1112 ppm.

Mobil 1V-Twin 20w50 Full-Synthetic M/C Oil; $11/Qt; zinc level 1649 ppm; phosphorus level 1722 ppm.

BMW 20w50 Non-Synthetic M/C Oil; $7/Qt; zinc level 1951 ppm; phosphorus level 1800 ppm.

beemerdons · Aug 14, 2009

Radman and Toecutter may have the best answer: Use the new formulation Rotella T; but simply just add 4 oz. of GM EOS!

Warchild · Aug 14, 2009

Holy ******* ****, is it the dead of winter already? :glare:

Off to NERPT we go.....

scubatech · Aug 14, 2009

beemerdons said:
Radman and Toecutter may have the best answer: Use the new formulation Rotella T; but simply just add 4 oz. of GM EOS!

That's great info Don. I have always used Rotello "T" mineral in all my vehicles too.

FJRBluesman · Aug 14, 2009

How much is the reduction?

How much lower is the zinc & phosphorus levels (ppm) compared to before?

Isn't it still better then normal motor oil?

It is reduced, but is it truly significant?

radman · Aug 14, 2009

Oils that have the Energy Star are the worst offenders-made for auto engines exclusively, they are fuel mileage oriented, and lack the high pressure additives (zinc, phosphorous) due to problems with these compounds tending to render ineffective catalytic converters (the same could happen to your scooters convert, for what that's worth) over time. Oils that have weight ratings like 10w-40, 15w-50 fall outside the normal auto useage, as a result have had in the past more of the traditional additives we are used to-musclecars etc use them to good effect. This is why they will work in bikes-non energy star compliant, they don't have the nasties that turn clutches into stationary personal dynos. Ditto big truck oils. It's a rule of thumb that's worked well in the past-but as the requirements for composition change, it's anyone's guess what will work well in the future. Bike oil is safe, but spendy as hell, and loaded with more outrageous claims than a Born Again Revival meeting. Wally World has M1 15w-50 Red Top at $22 for a 5 quart jug, buy 4 and the 5th change is pretty much free. The jugs have a clear window so you can nail 4 litre change quantity at a glance. The oversize jug makes for easy mixing. Sold yet?

jhedges · Aug 14, 2009

This is a good read! Very interesting!

https://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html

Warchild · Aug 14, 2009

radman said:
Wally World has M1 15w-50 Red Top at $22 for a 5 quart jug, buy 4 and the 5th change is pretty much free. The jugs have a clear window so you can nail 4 litre change quantity at a glance. The oversize jug makes for easy mixing. Sold yet?

Yep.... I was sold long ago.

I never bought into using a diesel oil in a motorcycle anyway.... <_<

The only real problem here is... buying it from The Great Satan.

As everyone knows, every time you buy something from Walmart, a puppy dies.

Think of the puppies before purchasing. :lol:

rickcorwn · Aug 14, 2009

So how much is a 16oz bottle of EOS going for?? Available at the local chevy dealer?

Thread spin off about possible change to Rotella Diesel Oil

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