Thread spin off about possible change to Rotella Diesel Oil

[Patriot]

The failures of the ill-conceived (heroic) designs

Show me a manufacturer that doesn't have ill-conceived designs.

Trojan...oh wait...never mind... :dribble:

 

[1FJR]

OK--it's Friday. What sucks from Shimano? BTW, we're still on topic here b/c shimano components use oil.

Two words "bio pace"

 

[Warchild]

Would it not be perfectly safe to mix Golden Spectro Synthetic with Valvoline 20W-50 M/C Oil on a 50/50 ratio.

Yes, perfectly safe, according to anecdotal evidence. I personally have run the Doug Chapman blend for many years now.... 50% Mobil One, 50% of this stuff here:

 

[WWWobble]

Maybe the answer is to just use AMSOIL

but mix the bike 50/50, BMW pukka pukka twin with FJR final drive and saddle bags that don't fall off.

WWWobble

well, it's still Friday here

 

[Constant Mesh]

This topic may be a bit overwrought.

-- Comparing Motorcycle Oil to Chevron Diesel Oil --

From the product data sheets --

Valvoline 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil 10w-40

Zinc % by weight = 0.112

Phosphorus % by weight = 0.103

Chevron Delo 400 Multigrade 15w-40 CI-4 Plus, SL $11/gallon

Zinc % by weight = 0.148

Phosphorus % by weight = 0.136

Chevron Delo 400 LE 15w-40 CJ-4, SM $11/gallon

Zinc % by weight = 0.13

Phosphorus % by weight = 0.12

Don't know why 3 digit values aren't provided for this new product.

The LE oil, the new formulation for low emissions engines, does have reduced zinc and phosphorus levels -- 12% less zinc and phosphorus, compared to their CI-4 Plus oil.

However, the LE oil still contains more zinc and phosphorus than Valvoline's motorcycle oil.

 

[vabrzn]

The performance of Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 is the result of extensive cooperative development work

with major equipment builders and application of the latest lubrication technology. As a result, this product meets

or exceeds the latest API, ACEA, JASO, and Global industry specifications for diesel engine oils.

I've been using Mobil 5-40 with good results and it's JASO rated.

 

[Zorlac]

The performance of Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 is the result of extensive cooperative development workwith major equipment builders and application of the latest lubrication technology. As a result, this product meets

or exceeds the latest API, ACEA, JASO, and Global industry specifications for diesel engine oils.

I've been using Mobil 5-40 with good results and it's JASO rated.

FWIW, I switched to their 0w-40 synth last winter in my 03 Concours, granted only 6400 miles ago, but even now on the same oil it shifts better than it EVER has, much better than the Rotella T synth I had been using for years.Don't know if my cams are round yet though.

 

[caryt]

I will continue to use Rotella in all mine, I buy 55gal drums.

1 FJR

3 Ford diesels

2 quads

2 early broncos

The diesels supply oil to the inj at up to 3200 psi and if those parts can last hundreds of thousands of miles our tappets should be fine.

 

[Geezer]

This has been interesting, but there hasn't been anything posted that makes me want to stop using Rotella T in my FJR.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

This has been interesting, but there hasn't been anything posted that makes me want to stop using Rotella T in my FJR.

This topic may be a bit overwrought.

S'truth... :huh:

The LE oil, the new formulation for low emissions engines, does have reduced zinc and phosphorus levels -- 12% less zinc and phosphorus, compared to their CI-4 Plus oil.

It is being reported, now, that the more often you change oil (especially, in excess of manufacturer's recommendations -- every 6,000 miles for the FJR) the higher the levels of the cat-con damaging elements (zinc and phosphorous) maintained in the lube oil.

IOW, the levels are formulated for recommended oil-change intervals and normal additive depletion.

The performance of Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 ..., this product meets or exceeds the latest API, ACEA, JASO, and Global industry specifications for diesel engine oils.I've been using Mobil 5-40 with good results and it's JASO rated.

It's good when oil manufacturers state all the specs they've tested for -- and meet (or, exceed).

Yet, not all oils (for whatever reason...?) feel the need to test for certain specs -- Mil.Spec, JASO, etc -- that doesn't mean that they wouldn't "meet or exceed" (if tested).

 

[ShinyPartsUp]

This thread has confused me and whoever started it sucks eggs.

 

[SkooterG]

This has been interesting, but there hasn't been anything posted that makes me want to stop using Rotella T in my FJR.

+1

When I get some more time I may try to get some more info, but I ain't too worried.

****'s gotten me to 192k, so it can't be all that bad.

 

[beemerdons]

This thread has confused me and whoever started it sucks eggs.

ShinyPartsUp: I wouldn't say that Shiny! Here's what I've learned: 1) If I still had any Rotella T in my garage, I'd continue to use it and not worry about a thing! 2) I'm now following Radman's recommendations: Bought five 5 quart jugs of M1 15w-50 Red Top from Walmart, two 16 ounce bottles of GM E.O.S. from Chandler Chevrolet and ordered six Yamaha oil filters from Gary McCoy of Mondak Motorsports. Now I've joined the ranks of the retired, I'm averaging 500 miles a week on my FJR (also still riding the 4 other bikes), so I'm good to go for the next year. Thanks to all - especially to Radman!!!

 

[doctorJ]

This thread has confused me and whoever started it sucks eggs.

Yeah, me too. All I've been trying to find out is if I can still use my Rotella T Synthetic or has it been changed too. Maybe I missed that but not gonna reread the posts to find out, :blink: .

doctorj

 

[ShinyPartsUp]

This thread has confused me and whoever started it sucks eggs.

ShinyPartsUp: I wouldn't say that Shiny! Here's what I've learned: 1) If I still had any Rotella T in my garage, I'd continue to use it and not worry about a thing! 2) I'm now following Radman's recommendations: Bought five 5 quart jugs of M1 15w-50 Red Top from Walmart, two 16 ounce bottles of GM E.O.S. from Chandler Chevrolet and ordered six Yamaha oil filters from Gary McCoy of Mondak Motorsports. Now I've joined the ranks of the retired, I'm averaging 500 miles a week on my FJR (also still riding the 4 other bikes), so I'm good to go for the next year. Thanks to all - especially to Radman!!!

Thanks Beemerman.

Mobil 1 15W50 $22 (+/-)

GM E.O.S. $4 [1/4 of 16 oz. bottle] (+/-)

Filters $00 (I would buy them anyway)

Mixing/remembering/gathering from multiple sources/forgetting something until the last minute = PIA

VS. all the usual easy-to-get suspects at some extra cost = Priceless

Am I missing anything?

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Mobil 1 15W50 GM E.O.S.

Filters

Mixing/remembering/gathering from multiple sources/forgetting something until the last minute = PIA

VS. all the usual easy-to-get suspects at some extra cost = Priceless

Am I missing anything?

Maybe...?

First, Yamaha only reccos oil with maximum viscosty in the '40' range -- all the way to max ambient temps (20W-40 for U.S. FJRs and 10W-40, 15W-40, and 20W-40 for up to max ambient temps for other World markets). Higher viscosity (heavier) oil usually tends to run hotter and will, eventually, be forced to a similar viscosity as the manufacturer's reccos (but, hotter). Why do dat...?

GM E.O.S.: Yamaha specifically cautions (in the manual), "do not mix any chemical additives". E.O.S. (a metallic, zinc, phosphorous, and sodium, high-pressure anti-wear additive):

"GM recommends E.O.S. assembly lubricant only for the specific purposes ... GM does not recommend the use of this or any product as an additive to engine oil"

It's an 'engine assembly lubricant'.
Metallic additives are being removed and limited (phased-out) by major oil companies for many reasons and being replaced by organic additives wherever feasible -- this has been on-going for decades. Metallic additives are 'your grandfather's oil additives'. :blink:

E.O.S.:

"GM cam and lifter pre-lube contains a specially formulated anti-wear agent dispensed in a high quality oil to prevent scuffing and/or premature wear during start-up and initial break-in of a new camshaft."

Where are all the reported cases of FJR engines of scuffing/scoring of rubbing-friction engine parts....? Yes, there's a (rare) part failure from-time-to-time -- but no huge/repeated/unusual wear issues being reported.

Quite the contrary...!

Other manufacturer's engines may well need all the "crutches" they can find to just exist and keep running (due to faulty/heroic design/engineering?) -- but, not the FJR.

Of course, you're free to use whatever you want....

 

[Zorlac]

"Metallic additives are being removed and limited (phased-out) by major oil companies for many reasons and being replaced by organic additives wherever feasible -- this has been on-going for decades. Metallic additives are 'your grandfather's oil additives'."

FWIW, I ran this "zinc" question past a Mech Eng/motorhead at work and he thinks that Mobil1 synth oil is fine without the zinc on non "roller cam-followers".

 

[tractorford]

Oh goodie. An oil thread!!
Everything I've read about motorcycle-specific oils, whether they be synthetic or conventional is that their additive packages were specifically formulated to deal with the specifics of the environment, which means more Zinc and such to protect cam followers and deal with the higher temps and stresses in the engine, while not being SO slippery that the wet clutch slips.

If you are a regular changer of oils, the conventional wisdom says that you don't *need* synthetics because they all start out with the same viscosities and such - but synthetics run longer before breaking down.

However oils become contaminated with acids, soots, metals and such, so even though filters remove mostof the bigger particulates I've always wondered whether synthetics do more harm in the end than good

Because if you're going to change your oil every 3,000 miles anyway, that's before the conventionals have (to use a term) worn out, but the contaminates concentrate for longer in the oil before being flushed out.

While this isn't exactly some remote outpost, up here in Canada there aren't all that many choices - you can get manufacturer private labelled oils (Yamalube, H-D, Hondalube and such). There are specialty premium brands like Blue Spectro, Motul, Amsoil. Castrol only offers two bike-specific oils - and they differ only by viscosity. The large retailers have their own labels - but I avoid anything branded by Canadian Tire (for example) like the plague and I'm convinced that the premium specialty providers don't actually *do* anything for their money.

So I've always used Castrol and in the past 35 years have never had to rebuild an engine.

However, for you synthetic types, I noticed a bike-specific fully synthetic formulation of Mobil-One on the shelf at a local WalMart (again in Canada) last week. I think paying $16 a quart for oil is sinful these days, especially since it doesn't actually have any oil in it and because, except for my road trip days I change oil every 3K.

Oh goodie. An oil thread!!
Everything I've read about motorcycle-specific oils, whether they be synthetic or conventional is that their additive packages were specifically formulated to deal with the specifics of the environment, which means more Zinc and such to protect cam followers and deal with the higher temps and stresses in the engine, while not being SO slippery that the wet clutch slips.

If you are a regular changer of oils, the conventional wisdom says that you don't *need* synthetics because they all start out with the same viscosities and such - but synthetics run longer before breaking down.

However oils become contaminated with acids, soots, metals and such, so even though filters remove mostof the bigger particulates I've always wondered whether synthetics do more harm in the end than good

Because if you're going to change your oil every 3,000 miles anyway, that's before the conventionals have (to use a term) worn out, but the contaminates concentrate for longer in the oil before being flushed out.

While this isn't exactly some remote outpost, up here in Canada there aren't all that many choices - you can get manufacturer private labelled oils (Yamalube, H-D, Hondalube and such). There are specialty premium brands like Blue Spectro, Motul, Amsoil. Castrol only offers two bike-specific oils - and they differ only by viscosity. The large retailers have their own labels - but I avoid anything branded by Canadian Tire (for example) like the plague and I'm convinced that the premium specialty providers don't actually *do* anything for their money.

So I've always used Castrol and in the past 35 years have never had to rebuild an engine.

However, for you synthetic types, I noticed a bike-specific fully synthetic formulation of Mobil-One on the shelf at a local WalMart (again in Canada) last week. I think paying $16 a quart for oil is sinful these days, especially since it doesn't actually have any oil in it and because, except for my road trip days I change oil every 3K.

 

[tractorford]

I've used Mobil 1 in almost all my motors for many years, Diesel oil has higher detergents, and also anti foaming additive which I found out works very well in high RPM engines like the ZX-11 I use to own. I put over 45,000 miles on the ZX-11 using diesel mobile 1 with not one problem. I also have a 1986 Toyota turbo pick up with 325,000 mile on it diesel oil. My engines are so clean on the inside you wouldn't believe it. Warning do not put diesel oil in an older engine which might have varnish because diesel oil will cut it lose and could stop up an oil hole or filter. I have some older Harley's I like using Rotella aviation oil because it is formulated for air cool engines and you can buy 60w. The Yamaha book on my 2008 FJR says do not use synthetic oil oil, but I'm using Mobil 1, 10w 40 turbo diesel oil. Clutch does not slip, oil doesn't foam, and I'm hoping the Yamaha wears me out before it wears out. I think the newer cars are coming with synthetic oil to increase milage. My wifes car is a BMW and the recommend oil change is every 12 months or 15,000 miles and it has synthetic oil from the factory. Almost forgot to tell you that I put 25,000 miles on my Toyota pickup between oil changes and it still runs good and doesn't use oil between changes.

Not sure why Yamaha does not recommend synthetic but it's too late to convince me otherwise, because I like to ride 4K or 5K miles before changing the oil.

Synthetic is not for everyone because if you change every 3000 miles I would stay away from it because of the cost. In regards to using Rotella diesel oil I like that idea too.

ride safe

 

[black cherry]

The first report is an OUA using the new CJ-4 Rotella: this is used oil that has 2,724 miles on it.

UOAs from 2007 GL1800 Goldwing

Element ........... Al . Cr . Fe . Cu . Pb . Sn . Mo . Ni . Mn . Ag . Ti . K .. B . Si . Na ... Ca . Mg .... P ... Zn . Ba

==========================================================================================

================================

....Bike Miles

1 - 6,386 Miles .... 6 .. 0 . 12 . 20 .. 1 .. 0 . 17 .. 0 .. 1 .. 0 . 0 .. 5 . 20 .. 8 .. 3 . 2021 . 16 .. 868 . 1085 .. 1

2 - 9,381 Miles .... 5 .. 1 . 12 . 17 .. 1 .. 0 .. 6 .. 0 .. 1 .. 0 . 0 .. 4 .. 4 .. 8 .. 5 . 3213 . 13 . 1114 . 1441 .. 0

3 - 12,155 Miles ... 5 .. 1 .. 9 . 14 .. 1 .. 2 .. 3 .. 0 .. 0 .. 0 . 0 .. 5 . 19 .. 8 .. 3 . 2414 .. 8 .. 993 . 1190 .. 0

4 - 15,024 Miles (no UOA)

5 - 17,806 Miles (no UOA)

6 - 20,696 Miles ... 4 .. 0 .. 8 .. 8 .. 2 .. 2 .. 3 .. 0 .. 0 .. 0 . 0 .. 5 . 26 .. 6 .. 3 . 2119 .. 7 .. 930 . 1135 .. 0

==========================================================================================

================================

1 - Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 ... 2,724 on oil ... SUS@212F=69.5 ... cSt@100C=n/a ..... Flashpoint=n/a

2 - Rotella 5W-40 CI-4+ ... 2,995 on oil ... SUS@210F=69.8 ... cSt@100C=12.91 ... Flashpoint=390

3 - Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 ... 2,774 on oil ... SUS@210F=69.8 ... cSt@100C=12.91 ... Flashpoint=385

4 - Mobil 4T 10W-40 ....... 2,869 on oil ... (no UOA)

5 - Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 ... 2,782 on oil ... (no UOA)

6 - Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 ... 2,809 on oil ... SUS@210F=71.5 ... cSt@100C=13.35 ... Flashpoint=400

SUS "should" = 68 to 78 ... cSt "should" = 12.4 to 15.3

==========================================================================================

================================

Element Key:

Aluminum - Al...Tin - Sn..........Titanium - Ti...Calcium - Ca

Chromium - Cr...Molybdenum - Mo...Potassium - K...Magnesium - Mg

Iron - Fe.......Nickel - Ni.......Boron - B.......Phosphorus - P

Copper - Cu.....Manganese - Mn....Silicon - Si....Zinc - Zn

Lead - Pb.......Silver - Ag.......Sodium - Na.....Barium - Ba

This report is using Yamalube: This is "NEW" Yamalube 10W40 that has not been used.

Clicky

The Zinc and Phosphorus levels in the used Rotella dino oil are still higher than the Zinc and Phosphorus levels in new Yamalube.

I'm not a that smart, but I think that means I'm still buying Rotella T.