Converting Gen 2 AE to A engine - is it possible?

Background

As posted in other threads, my trusty 2007 FJR1300A has performed admirably for the past 7+ years, unfortunately at 213,000 miles my engine finally died.

My FJR is in good condition and I love this bike so I wanted to give it a new lease on life by replacing the worn out engine with a good low-mileage power-plant.

I've been living in Japan for the past 3.5 years, where finding an FJR engine is next to impossible (I have tried), so my only option was to find an engine in the much bigger US market.

Last Nov I found an engine on eBay, which was advertised as an A engine with 11k miles from a crashed bike. The compression and leak down tests looked good so after speaking with the company DL Cycle Salvage in NC (dlcyclesalvage.com / www.facebook.com/pages/DL-Cycle-Salvage/195248320568354) a few times to confirm that this was an "A" motor and was going to be installed into my 2007 FJR1300A (manual bike) as well as the logistics of getting it shipped to me in Japan I proceeded to buy this engine.

The engine cost $950 plus $200 for domestic shipping to my mail-forwarding address, with the additional $600 to get it to my door in Japan.

The engine arrived just before Christmas and I was ecstatic as my FJR was "off-line" now since late October. I was hard at work pulling out the old engine with the intent to use the X-mas/NY holiday break to give my FJR a new heart.

All I can say is it's a good thing that none of my neighbors understand English, because the number and volume of profanities emanating from my garage would have likely got me into a lot of trouble, for up on un-crating and examining the engine (which now owed me $1,800) I was shocked to see that this lump of steel was an AE engine.

I immediately contacted the DL Cycle Salvage to inform them of the problem, and they told me to call back the next day after they had a chance to consider options, this was the last time (in the past month of trying) that I have been able to speak with the manager or anyone, either on the phone or eBay messaging system. They are screening my calls and ignoring my emails. Being located in Japan, even if they agreed to take the engine back, including the original CONUS shipping it would still cost me close to $1,000 to ship it back, which kind of negates the whole thing, i.e. they would need to own up to the whole problem...

As mentioned above, since I'm based overseas and can't afford to launch a legal battle with them or drive over there and dump this engine on their doorstep, so they are simply ignoring me all together.

The Proposed Solution: Convert the AE engine to an A engine

I have a local mechanic who's prepared to "split the cases" and replace gearbox parts, etc. for around $800 plus parts, which is still around 1/2 the price of trying to find and buy another engine, and risk getting fucked over again either on the whole engine or being sold a dud. Since returning it (on my dime) is not viable I am afraid of falling victim to another one of these unscrupulous assholes that seem so prevalent in the bike Salvage Yard industry.

Of course this idea assumes that the number of parts that need to be replaced is finite and the engine casings are the same or can be easily retrofitted. It would not make much sense to use any gears or other wear parts from my old 200k mile engine. Thus given the price of the various gearbox, etc. components this only makes commercial sense if the number of required "bits" is on the smallish side.

I know a number of forum members have been deep inside the FJR engines and many know a lot about the FJR platform. So I'm hoping you good folks can offer some insight and advice on whether it is possible to convert an AE engine to an A engine.

Wow...that truly sucks. Hope you can end up getting things worked out. I would suggest at least letting ebay know of the problem, so that they can stop the assholes from doing future business. Maybe one or several forum members from NC could pay them a visit.

Might it be possible to convert the bike to AE spec instead?

Sorry about the problems you've been having with finding a new engine, I don't think may people on this forum will be doing business with DL Cycle Salvage after this debacle. I've had my engine split twice to fix a 2nd gear issue, and can tell you it is a fairly straightforward job if you want to take it on yourself. You can start by splitting your old engine if you have the means and time.

If I remember correctly I once looked at parts diagrams through a bunch of years of AE vs. A and saw the only internal difference in transmissions was the shift barrel. Please verify that before you take my word for it though. Your old shift barrel is probably not measurably worn and therefore could be installed in your new engine. The same may be true for your clutch slave cylinder. It would also give you the opportunity to inspect the transmission dogs & forks of the AE engine, and replace any parts that may need replacement. If you would, please take pictures of the AE transmission parts. It'd be good forum information on how much electrohydromechanical actuation of the clutch and shift shaft are better than our clumsy left hands and feet; I don't think any AE owners on this forum have had their cases split. That should bode well for the condition of your AE transmission.

Aside from the mentioned parts, you're in for some engine cover gaskets, 10 main bearing bolts, two coolant tube o-rings, a tube of Yamabond, and maybe an oil pickup screen if you're more cautious than you probably need to be.

Good luck, keep us posted!

James, can't help with specifics but spend a few minutes and compare the A & AE parts fiche.

Shift drums cams have a different part number (as expected) for 5-up verses standard pattern but many, many other parts (shift forks, main shafts, tranny) are the same. Could it be as simple as swapping shift drum + manual clutch and a few odds & ends...dunno, hopefully someone who has split the cases knows the answer.

Good luck, sucks that a business operates like this outfit appears to.

--G

El Toro Joe said:

Wow...that truly sucks. Hope you can end up getting things worked out. I would suggest at least letting ebay know of the problem, so that they can stop the assholes from doing future business. Maybe one or several forum members from NC could pay them a visit.

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El Toro Joe, I was eventually able to contact a human at eBay customer support (they have recently) made it incredibly hard to reach them by email, phone or chat, instead just circling you around in their automated website options.

When I finally did find a phone number and a one-time code and spoke to the customer support rep, his reply was that since I'd shipped the engine overseas and it's been 1.5 months since I purchased it, eBay was unable to raise a claim/case

Twigg said:

Might it be possible to convert the bike to AE spec instead?

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Twigg, two issues I can see with that, first I would hate my bike without a clutch. Second, by the time I was done buying all the periphery, like ECU, shift pedal assembly, the wiring loom, and who knows what else it would end up costing more that another engine, and there are not exactly lots of how-to guides out there on such a conversion.

rPGoatBoy said:

Sorry about the problems you've been having with finding a new engine, I don't think may people on this forum will be doing business with DL Cycle Salvage after this debacle. I've had my engine split twice to fix a 2nd gear issue, and can tell you it is a fairly straightforward job if you want to take it on yourself. You can start by splitting your old engine if you have the means and time. If I remember correctly I once looked at parts diagrams through a bunch of years of AE vs. A and saw the only internal difference in transmissions was the shift barrel. Please verify that before you take my word for it though. Your old shift barrel is probably not measurably worn and therefore could be installed in your new engine. The same may be true for your clutch slave cylinder. It would also give you the opportunity to inspect the transmission dogs & forks of the AE engine, and replace any parts that may need replacement. If you would, please take pictures of the AE transmission parts. It'd be good forum information on how much electrohydromechanical actuation of the clutch and shift shaft are better than our clumsy left hands and feet; I don't think any AE owners on this forum have had their cases split. That should bode well for the condition of your AE transmission.

Aside from the mentioned parts, you're in for some engine cover gaskets, 10 main bearing bolts, two coolant tube o-rings, a tube of Yamabond, and maybe an oil pickup screen if you're more cautious than you probably need to be.

Good luck, keep us posted!

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rPGoatBoy, thanks for the glimmer of hope, this is what I'm trying to do now. One of the other, potentially more serious things I am concerned about is the part of the case where the A engines have the Gear Position Sensor unit. On the AE engine this part of the casing looks quite different, at least on the outside. What's got me worried is that it is not something that could be "unbolted" and therefore swappable. It might be more evident after examining the inside of the cases, but to my laymen eye not from the outside.

As for reusing my A shift barrel, I would certainly consider that, once it can be inspected. Towards the end my gearbox was starting to jump out of 2nd gear with higher frequency and the syncro was not as good as it once was. Funny enough, I'm still on the original clutch and it wasn't slipping yet

I hope I have the opportunity to take plenty of pics as it would mean that I can "fix" this AE engine.

James, I think you're going to find there are no case differences between the two engines. That would probably be cost prohibitive from Yamaha's standpoint to have two different engine cases for the same model with no other internal differences. In fact, my (and your) A engine has an unused screw boss near that gear position indicator that's used for the AE shift mechanism. So, more good news.

Also, no synchros on these transmissions, just forks, dogs, and pockets. Your old shift forks and at least that 2nd gear combo are shot, probably more. I don't think I'd use any other parts from that old A transmission (except the barrel), unless of course they happened to look pristine (highly unlikely with 200k+ on the clock). But I'm betting your AE trans looks great inside. What year bike was the donor?

rPGoatBoy said:

James, I think you're going to find there are no case differences between the two engines. That would probably be cost prohibitive from Yamaha's standpoint to have two different engine cases for the same model with no other internal differences. In fact, my (and your) A engine has an unused screw boss near that gear position indicator that's used for the AE shift mechanism. So, more good news.
Also, no synchros on these transmissions, just forks, dogs, and pockets. Your old shift forks and at least that 2nd gear combo are shot, probably more. I don't think I'd use any other parts from that old A transmission (except the barrel), unless of course they happened to look pristine (highly unlikely with 200k+ on the clock). But I'm betting your AE trans looks great inside. What year bike was the donor?

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The donor bike, was also a 2007 with just under 11k miles on the clock. I remember seeing DL Salvage advertising the instrument cluster from that same bike (and with the same claimed mileage), this, at the time gave me additional confidence that I was getting a good engine, just a shame that they didn't disclose that it was from an AE bike

The gear indication mechanism is different. The 'A' uses a switch, the 'AE' uses a potentiometer.

There may be other subtle differences. There are certainly extra sensors for clutch speeds and position in the 'AE', whether that means the internals are different I don't know.

A good comparison of the workshop manual and part fiches would be very advisable.

Damn!!

I was just thinking about you and your rebuild job last week and was wondering how things were progressing. I even looked up your old "Lump" thread and considered asking for an update. Last I had heard, your "new" engine was purchased and in transit.

Since I have never been into the case and am not terribly familiar with AE (or even A) transmissions, I probably can't be much help other than a little moral support. I do know that the shift indicator (as someone already mentioned) is different but its not expensive and your old one is likely good anyway (It's just a contact pad with 5 contact points). I don't know if the contact pin for the shift indicator is common to both transmissions but not used in the AE. I seriously doubt that there are significant differences between the engine cases and believe that it is very likely you can make it work if you have some competent help. Hopefully, you can use parts mostly from the new transmission. As you said, you are now into it for $1800. Trying again (with no guarantee of better success) would cost a similar amount and you would still be at least a couple of more months away from getting it back on the road. GO FOR IT!!

Too bad the Yamaha factory guys who recently honored you for your 200,000 mile milestone couldn't help!

Good luck

Another thought...

Did you get a diagnosis of the problems with the "Lump"? Valves or other head issues? Pistons? Cylinder? Block crack? If the cause is clearly identified and accessible, maybe it's possible to use parts from the AE to restore the original engine? You might still have an issue with the transmission problems you described i.e. popping out of 2nd.

RossKean said:

Damn!!I was just thinking about you and your rebuild job last week and was wondering how things were progressing. I even looked up your old "Lump" thread and considered asking for an update. Last I had heard, your "new" engine was purchased and in transit.

Since I have never been into the case and am not terribly familiar with AE (or even A) transmissions, I probably can't be much help other than a little moral support. I do know that the shift indicator (as someone already mentioned) is different but its not expensive and your old one is likely good anyway (It's just a contact pad with 5 contact points). I don't know if the contact pin for the shift indicator is common to both transmissions but not used in the AE. I seriously doubt that there are significant differences between the engine cases and believe that it is very likely you can make it work if you have some competent help. Hopefully, you can use parts mostly from the new transmission. As you said, you are now into it for $1800. Trying again (with no guarantee of better success) would cost a similar amount and you would still be at least a couple of more months away from getting it back on the road. GO FOR IT!!

Too bad the Yamaha factory guys who recently honored you for your 200,000 mile milestone couldn't help!

Good luck

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Thanks for the support Ross.

I'll take some close up pics of the gear indicator area on both engines, but from memory the casing around that area looked different and not a bolt-on, at least that I could recognize from the outside type different.

I am trying to enlist the help of the Yamaha guys, but this by far the strangest request the Japanese guys have ever had, Japanese people don't typically do or even consider this type of thing, so not holding my breath as to a positive outcome.

RossKean said:

Another thought...
Did you get a diagnosis of the problems with the "Lump"? Valves or other head issues? Pistons? Cylinder? Block crack? If the cause is clearly identified and accessible, maybe it's possible to use parts from the AE to restore the original engine? You might still have an issue with the transmission problems you described i.e. popping out of 2nd.

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The compression was totally shot in all cylinders, reading in the 120-130 PSI range and #2 was showing about 50 PSI. When finally stopped riding the bike because oil mist was blasting from the RHS of the block it was due to the back pressure build up which blew out a part of the rocker cover gasket (one of the little half-moon bits). That's what the tech at the shop where the bike was towed showed me.

Also, the bike was starting to jump out of 2nd gear at increasing frequency.

I have no gripes about the old engine, it did an admirable job. I just want to get the old girl back on the road with a good engine to see how many more miles I can pile on

Dang James, I sure hope there is a good outcome for you in all this BS. Buying a used engine isn't always simple. Now that the FJR has a long sales record in the US it is easier to get a good engine here than it was back around '06.

Given the ECU differences, servo clutch, shift drum and shift linkages it will take some work to convert the AE into an A engine. I have learned not to trust *anything* said about a used engine. Before putting any work into the replacement engine, do a leak-down check and turn the engine over with a wrench feeling for any smoothness problems or unusual noises.

Wishing you best luck and a good outcome!

JamesK said:

The compression was totally shot in all cylinders, reading in the 120-130 PSI range and #2 was showing about 50 PSI. When finally stopped riding the bike because oil mist was blasting from the RHS of the block it was due to the back pressure build up which blew out a part of the rocker cover gasket (one of the little half-moon bits).

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That old engine is probably worn beyond cost effective repair. HOWEVER, for the valve cover gasket to blow out because of over pressurization of the crank case that would tell me that your crank vent was plugged somehow. There's a PCV line between the top of the trans of the old motor and the air box. How did the inside of your air box look? Oily & shitty or clean?

File an "item not received as described" case with eBay. Note that the seller is no longer responding. You will get your money back, but probably not the $600 importing fees.

I think you're best off carefully selecting a different motor.

My opinion is the dissenting one in this discussion.

It seems to me that you could use the AE shift drum. Granted, this gives you an "all up" shift pattern but that just makes your FJR absolutely unique. At worst, it seems to me that your gear indicator would no longer function with the sensor being incompatible. That and you would have to learn NOT to press down on the shifter when in 1st.

To me at least, it seems like it is a do-able project.