Converting Gen 2 AE to A engine - is it possible?

[JamesK]

Dang James, I sure hope there is a good outcome for you in all this BS. Buying a used engine isn't always simple. Now that the FJR has a long sales record in the US it is easier to get a good engine here than it was back around '06.
Given the ECU differences, servo clutch, shift drum and shift linkages it will take some work to convert the AE into an A engine. I have learned not to trust *anything* said about a used engine. Before putting any work into the replacement engine, do a leak-down check and turn the engine over with a wrench feeling for any smoothness problems or unusual noises.

Wishing you best luck and a good outcome!

Thanks Alan, I remember now reading your thread some years back, and whilst being disheartened by you misfortune and wishing your FJR a speedy recovery, at the same time being glad in side that my FJR (at the time) was just a baby and purring like a kitten...

I am anxiously waiting to hear back from Yamaha, who, at least initially agreed to try to offer advice on the feasibility of this conversion. Whether or not they come through is another matter.

In the meantime I've printed out your engine shopping guide in case I come across a good prospective engine in the meantime.

 

[JamesK]

My opinion is the dissenting one in this discussion.
It seems to me that you could use the AE shift drum. Granted, this gives you an "all up" shift pattern but that just makes your FJR absolutely unique. At worst, it seems to me that your gear indicator would no longer function with the sensor being incompatible. That and you would have to learn NOT to press down on the shifter when in 1st.

To me at least, it seems like it is a do-able project.

supertankerm60a3,

I had briefly considered the idea of using the AE engine, and just adapting to the crazy gear pattern, and might have gone with that, but as a totally last resort. However, the fact that the AE engine doesn't have a place for the gear position sensor, which if I'm not mistaken does considerably more on the Gen 2 FJR than just indicate the gear number on the dash helped convince me that I need to either convert this engine to normal or find an A motor.

 

[JamesK]

Is there anyone on the Forum who's local or within a reasonable distance to the address below and might be willing to help out? I was wondering if a local member were to swing by this salvage yard to inspect the engine in person and see them do the Leak Down tests that might make them think twice about doing anything too shady.


This is another salvage yard that's had a 2008 FJR1300A with 9,536 miles (crashed bike) up for sale for the past month (pretty much soon after I received the dud engine).
I have asked them to perform a Leak Down test and they eventually agreed but said they needed to buy the tool. This was over 3 weeks ago and I've been chasing them for the test results ever since, but have had no luck.

This is of course a huge red flag for me as you'd think a 9k mile FJR engine would be in great shape, so given the kind of characters you can expect in the salvage business I'm really worried buying another engine given the costs involved in shipping it here, and the absurd costs of trying to ship it back...making that a non-starter. I was quoted over $3,000 by Fedex Japan to ship back the AE engine they shipped to me to Japan one month ago for $600 :bad:

D's Cycle Connection

14750 State Highway 205
Terrell, Texas
972-552-7784

 

[fjrbird]

If I were you, I would try to sell that AE engine, perhaps for a loss, and search for another A engine. That simplifies the whole thing. Of course, selling in Japan, not shipping back to the States, is ideal. You can also try international ebay.

 

[palerider]

Does anyone think there might be ECU complications in this swap?

 

[ionbeam]

Does anyone think there might be ECU complications in this swap?

Not when converting an AE engine to an A engine. The only difficulty would be the A gear position indicator and the AE 5 up/5 down shift pattern.

Going the other way would be prohibitive unless someone wants to do it just because they want to, regardless of expense and difficulty. Going from A to AE would require a new ECU.

 

[wfooshee]

I would not consider using the AE shift drum, with neutral at the bottom. I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure, that neutral is like a zeroth gear, a full click down from first, and not a half-click like it is on normal bikes. In other words, you don't have to "find" neutral, it's just there at the bottom of the stack. I'd hate to have kicked down 2 or 3 gears for a turn and be in neutral instead of first and counting on power to get me off the apex.....

That's the whole reason neutral is set up as a half-click between gears on "real" bikes, after all. You have to select neutral intentionally to be in neutral.

The shift drum ("shift cam" in the parts diagrams) is different between the A and AE simply to accommodate the way the AE treats neutral. The gear indicator device is different for the same reason, but that's not internal, and it's in a different place than the neutral switch (I think,) so I don't know how it's handled with the cases. The forks and gears are the same. The cases are the same part # between A and AE. The shift shaft assembly is a different part #, but it looks like the only difference is the external arm, just move the one from your old motor. EDIT: Looking back at the parts fiche, there are some differences in the drawn part, but whether that makes them not interchangeable I couldn't say. Just to be safe, since you're splitting the case anyway (assuming you go for the shift drum swap) get the shift shaft, too.

I'm thinking (but I'm no AE expert, never having torn one down) that swapping the shift drum and the neutral switch (they call it the neutral switch but it detects ALL the gears) will get you what you need. Too bad the shift drum is so hard to get to..... The AE's shift position sensor and the A's neutral switch feed the same electronics.

 

[RossKean]

James

Have you gotten anywhere with it? If you already have the "Lump" out of the bike and returning the AE engine isn't an option, why not have a go at it? i.e. pull the transmissions from both engines and start swapping parts. While I haven't looked at everything, it seems that the vast majority of the transmission parts are identical (except the shift drum). If you have some helping who knows their way around motorcycle transmissions, it should only take a few hours once the engines are both sitting on a bench in front of you. Worst case scenario is that it can't be done and you have lost a few hours. There may be a chance of reselling the AE motor to recoup some of the loss.

I really hope that this works out!!

 

[JamesK]

Hey Ross, thanks for the follow up. I'm still waiting to hear whether this is possible from some contacts at Yamaha. Apparently it might be depending on which model number AE engine I have.

The problem with just give it a shot is that it's going to cost me a lot of money to have the mechanic blindly swapping parts, and given the mileage on my engine and the shifting problems towards the end I would not want to use my old gearbox parts, so more money...

 

[wfooshee]

You don't need ANY gearbox parts other then the shift drum and the external linkages. None of those parts have ANYTHING to do with shifting problems. Those issue are always in the forks and gears, which you don't need.

 

[escapefjrtist]

This ^^^^^^^^

Part numbers for gears and forks are the same. Should be a straight forward swap on the AE engine.

--G

 

[JamesK]

I would not consider using the AE shift drum, with neutral at the bottom. I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure, that neutral is like a zeroth gear, a full click down from first, and not a half-click like it is on normal bikes. In other words, you don't have to "find" neutral, it's just there at the bottom of the stack. I'd hate to have kicked down 2 or 3 gears for a turn and be in neutral instead of first and counting on power to get me off the apex.....
That's the whole reason neutral is set up as a half-click between gears on "real" bikes, after all. You have to select neutral intentionally to be in neutral.

The shift drum ("shift cam" in the parts diagrams) is different between the A and AE simply to accommodate the way the AE treats neutral. The gear indicator device is different for the same reason, but that's not internal, and it's in a different place than the neutral switch (I think,) so I don't know how it's handled with the cases. The forks and gears are the same. The cases are the same part # between A and AE. The shift shaft assembly is a different part #, but it looks like the only difference is the external arm, just move the one from your old motor. EDIT: Looking back at the parts fiche, there are some differences in the drawn part, but whether that makes them not interchangeable I couldn't say. Just to be safe, since you're splitting the case anyway (assuming you go for the shift drum swap) get the shift shaft, too.

I'm thinking (but I'm no AE expert, never having torn one down) that swapping the shift drum and the neutral switch (they call it the neutral switch but it detects ALL the gears) will get you what you need. Too bad the shift drum is so hard to get to..... The AE's shift position sensor and the A's neutral switch feed the same electronics.

wfooshee, thanks for your comments, it again raises my hopes. And my fears of a "full Neutral at the bottom" are exactly the same as yours, accident waiting to happen.

I am still concerned about the gear position part of this, from what I can see that part of the case looks different b/w the two engines, I'll take some pics with the AE sensor removed, but from memory it looked like this was part of the case and not a bolt-on. You can see in the second pic that there is a "built up" area where the AE sensor Assembly attaches to, so that extra section could be a separate part that's held in place with bolts from the inside of the engine case as I don't see any external mounting hardware. When you remove the black AE sensor there is a shaft protruding out of the extra metal part it was attached to, whereas on the A engine it's just a recessed space that the gear position sensor plugs into... From a large scale manufacturing perspective of course it would make the most sense to have that extra part be a bolt-on to the standard engine case which is shared b/w both models. However, as you can see from the pics, the numbers on the two sets of parts are different, including the number on the main engine case.

Interestingly my A engine has two blocked off holes, in which the AE engine has two additional sensors, which leads me to think that these cases are the same...

AE Sensor Assembly

Bottom right corner are the AE sensor and mounting adapter and you can see the shaft protruding from the sensor hole

A Sensor Assembly

The ID of both sensor holes is the same, only the shaft/mechanism seem to be different. I guess this can be swapped out from the inside once the cases are opened up?

 

[rPGoatBoy]

The ID of both sensor holes is the same, only the shaft/mechanism seem to be different. I guess this can be swapped out from the inside once the cases are opened up?

Yes, the "shaft mechanism" you're looking at is the back side of the shift drum. That's the only internal piece that should need replacement. The shift shaft should be the same except for the dot on the outside part that tells you where to line up the clamp for the shift linkage, since those are different between A and AE. Not 100% on that, but you'll be able to tell once you split your old engine open. Once again if you have the means and time, you should give it a shot yourself and save $800 or so. IMHO the hard part was getting the engine out of and back into the bike, and you've already done half of that.

Good luck!

 

[Twigg]

Blimey ... Vernier Calipers .... Nice to see the older tools being used.

 

[rPGoatBoy]

The big slotted shaft that's coming out of the back of the shift drum is for the AE's push button shift feature. The black "sensor" you took off is a torque motor that spins that slotted shaft (and the shift drum) about 50-60 degrees every time you push the shift up/down button. This way, the AE controls the rotation of the shift drum either electronically, or mechanically on the other side of the shift drum with your left boot and the shift shaft's ratcheting mechanism. You'll see.

Also, see the copper contact pads on the A's shift sensor? The smallest pad is for neutral. That should give you an idea on how the shift drum rotates.

 

[leclairk]

What if you go through all this work and it doesn't work? Just asking or saying. This seems like a huge risk to try and make this engine work. Did you get anywhere with ebay and filing a claim? Do you have any email correspondence records with the original salvage yard that shows you asking if the engine is a A and not an AE. If so I think it would be worth a shot in small claims court. You have a legitimate case. At the very least, have a lawyer draft a demand letter to light a fire under their butt. Once you break into that engine, you own it.

 

[mcatrophy]

... or mechanically on the other side of the shift drum with your left boot and the shift shaft's ratcheting mechanism. ...

Not really sure what you're saying here, but for clarity, the foot lever rotates a potentiometer. This is measured by the shift system MCU, which commands electrical operation of the shift drum, exactly the same as it would for the finger switch. There is no mechanical connection between the foot lever and the shifting mechanism.

 

[rPGoatBoy]

... or mechanically on the other side of the shift drum with your left boot and the shift shaft's ratcheting mechanism. ...

Not really sure what you're saying here, but for clarity, the foot lever rotates a potentiometer. This is measured by the shift system MCU, which commands electrical operation of the shift drum, exactly the same as it would for the finger switch. There is no mechanical connection between the foot lever and the shifting mechanism.

I stand corrected.

 

[JamesK]

... or mechanically on the other side of the shift drum with your left boot and the shift shaft's ratcheting mechanism. ...

Not really sure what you're saying here, but for clarity, the foot lever rotates a potentiometer. This is measured by the shift system MCU, which commands electrical operation of the shift drum, exactly the same as it would for the finger switch. There is no mechanical connection between the foot lever and the shifting mechanism.

Yes, that's what I thought too, as it looks a lot like the TPS unit.

 

[wfooshee]

The shaft sticking out when you remove the gear position sensor is on the shift drum. It goes away when you swap shift drums.

You'll need all the external shifting stuff from your 'A' engine, but once you swap the shift drum the AE will look just like the A does now.

I don't know for sure that you have to actually swap the shift shaft, too, but it has to come out to remove the shift drum anyway, so no big deal.